If normal benching hurts your shoulders, it is stupid to do full barbell bench-press.
It is douchbaggery to do micro movements to claim big bench numbers; but if it is a choice between partials reps or trashed shoulders, the choice seems kind of obvious.
First of all let me tell you the strongest men naturally ( meaning no bench shirts) in the bench press all have short arms and thick barrel chests. The range of motion is very short compared to what guys with a more normal physique have. Guys that are tall and with long arms move the bar a great deal more… In fact more work is done as you are moving the bar a greater distance everything else being equal.
Everyone seems to think a full range of motion is vital for complete development…Ever look at the angles of the arm/elbow/shoulder of these short armed guys versus the angle of the long arm guys? Huge difference!! If larger range of motion meant better development… heck the guys with the longest bench movement would be the most muscular, massive men around… but as most of you know it is the other way around!! The only place where full range is required is in a powerlifting contest. Or if you stick to typical gym lore… you must touch your chest… But for most of us… this leads to poor progress in the bench as our leverages are quite bad in the low position… leading to shoulder problems…frustration with a stalled bench …lack of strength and development from this great movement…
I challenge you to figure out exactly what the angle should be for your own unique situation and go with that… you will make much more progress in your strength and develpment for sure. Try doing partials from different heights…try doing floor presses where your elbow/upper arm limits the motion(by the way, most thick chested, short arm guys do a full range , touching their chest when they do a floor press, but of course most cannot, but your angles(leverage) will be better, more like the shorter armed guys.
Why not adjust technique(arch, grip width, straight line vs towards-the-head) or use tools (manpon, boards) to get the effect of not lowering the elbows “too” far and keeping your shoulder out of harms way?
This way you still get all the benefits AND you always know you are not delusioning yourself by further shortening the ROM due to heavy weight…
[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
First of all let me tell you the strongest men naturally ( meaning no bench shirts) in the bench press all have short arms and thick barrel chests. The range of motion is very short compared to what guys with a more normal physique have. Guys that are tall and with long arms move the bar a great deal more… In fact more work is done as you are moving the bar a greater distance everything else being equal.
Everyone seems to think a full range of motion is vital for complete development…Ever look at the angles of the arm/elbow/shoulder of these short armed guys versus the angle of the long arm guys? Huge difference!! If larger range of motion meant better development… heck the guys with the longest bench movement would be the most muscular, massive men around… but as most of you know it is the other way around!! The only place where full range is required is in a powerlifting contest. Or if you stick to typical gym lore… you must touch your chest… But for most of us… this leads to poor progress in the bench as our leverages are quite bad in the low position… leading to shoulder problems…frustration with a stalled bench …lack of strength and development from this great movement…
I challenge you to figure out exactly what the angle should be for your own unique situation and go with that… you will make much more progress in your strength and develpment for sure. Try doing partials from different heights…try doing floor presses where your elbow/upper arm limits the motion(by the way, most thick chested, short arm guys do a full range , touching their chest when they do a floor press, but of course most cannot, but your angles(leverage) will be better, more like the shorter armed guys.[/quote]
Who said anything about chest development.
Stop trying to start an E war on a non issue.
THe only thing I asked about was what height (I guess that means long arms to you) has to do with flexibility.
There are just as many guys with short arms that cant bring the bar to their chest as there is tall guys. This is a fact because height has NOTHING to do with flexibility.
[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
First of all let me tell you the strongest men naturally ( meaning no bench shirts) in the bench press all have short arms and thick barrel chests. The range of motion is very short compared to what guys with a more normal physique have. Guys that are tall and with long arms move the bar a great deal more… In fact more work is done as you are moving the bar a greater distance everything else being equal.
Everyone seems to think a full range of motion is vital for complete development…Ever look at the angles of the arm/elbow/shoulder of these short armed guys versus the angle of the long arm guys? Huge difference!! If larger range of motion meant better development… heck the guys with the longest bench movement would be the most muscular, massive men around… but as most of you know it is the other way around!! The only place where full range is required is in a powerlifting contest. Or if you stick to typical gym lore… you must touch your chest… But for most of us… this leads to poor progress in the bench as our leverages are quite bad in the low position… leading to shoulder problems…frustration with a stalled bench …lack of strength and development from this great movement…
I challenge you to figure out exactly what the angle should be for your own unique situation and go with that… you will make much more progress in your strength and develpment for sure. Try doing partials from different heights…try doing floor presses where your elbow/upper arm limits the motion(by the way, most thick chested, short arm guys do a full range , touching their chest when they do a floor press, but of course most cannot, but your angles(leverage) will be better, more like the shorter armed guys.[/quote]
Thanks brah
get a ridiculously big arch
Thanks for all of the advice guys. Today is a chest day so I will adjust the distance I lower the bar and mix up my grip on the bar.
Yeah I’d say comfort/flexibility is your judge. I have a 6’4’’ wingspan on a 6’1’’ frame so height is clearly irrelevant.
If you don’t have the flexibility to touch the bar to your chest, work on your flexibility so that you can.
Also, partial movements can be valid, but on bench press you would eliminate the lockout, not the stretch portion.
IMO.
In real life, the only people I see not touching the bar to their chests are rookies and idiots. Never seen anybody with good chest development doing it. Only exception: powerlifters doing board presses, and that’s not the same as hovering with the bar lowered only part way. And that’s an accessory lift, not typical form.
[quote]CannonFodder wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering how far you tall guys lower the bar to your chest when you bench? I am just under 6"3, and when I am benching, I find lowering the weight right to my chest makes me push my elbows back further then I would normally like too.
I find it easier to crank out more reps and less discomfort when lower the bar about 2 inches from my chest.
How about you guys, do you go all the way down when you bench?
[/quote]
How bout explaining your bench set up. IE. " I just lay on the bench and press with my arms straight out and I touch to the base of my neck and I wiggle my feet around when I press" or “I pull my shoulders back to decrese my shoulder rotation, get up on my traps, arch a little to decrease this long ass bench stroke I have, use some leg drive but Keep my feet firmly planted to stay tight. Arms are roughly at “_” angle to my body and I touch at my nipple or just a bit below because I have long arms”. or whatever…
Not knowing nothing about you I’d suggest you get a Yoga block or a foam roller, cut it in half and press off that. It’ll be about 2-3" thick but the foam will allow the weight to sink in a bit so you can work on your flexibility.
Since this is the “Bodybuilding” forum and not the “Power lifting” forum you may want to consider just doing DB presses or HS machines for a while until you work out whatever is causing your grief with the barbell presses, or maybe just drop weight until you get your form straightened out. Good luck man,
Mike
[quote]CannonFodder wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering how far you tall guys lower the bar to your chest when you bench? I am just under 6"3, and when I am benching, I find lowering the weight right to my chest makes me push my elbows back further then I would normally like too.
I find it easier to crank out more reps and less discomfort when lower the bar about 2 inches from my chest.
How about you guys, do you go all the way down when you bench?
[/quote]
I’m not tall (5’10"), but every guy I know who trains serious - tall or average or short - lowers the bar to the chest.
Are you trying to say the elbows drift outward or actually BACK?
Where on the chest are you attempting to lower it–nipples or middle or upper chest? I think you might be able to correct your problem by learning how to bench PROPERLY. That is, lowering and pinching your shoulder blades, pressing your head into the bench, and having your elbows in line with your wrists.
For god’s sake man, Bring the bar to your chest. Do you want to have a shitty chest?
When you have sex, do you only stick half your dick in?
FFS i hate it when i see a dumb punk in the gym load up the bar with 315, and fuckin only bring the bar down to 4 inches above the chest. Same thing with curls, I know some people do lower 1/2 and then higher 1/2, but i see stupid guy do nothing but top half rep curls for like 10 sets of fucking 40.
Sorry.
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
For god’s sake man, Bring the bar to your chest. Do you want to have a shitty chest?
When you have sex, do you only stick half your dick in?
FFS i hate it when i see a dumb punk in the gym load up the bar with 315, and fuckin only bring the bar down to 4 inches above the chest. Same thing with curls, I know some people do lower 1/2 and then higher 1/2, but i see stupid guy do nothing but top half rep curls for like 10 sets of fucking 40.
Sorry.[/quote]
I’ll just keep not touching my chest anyway, thank you, seeing as how it’s brought up my off-the-chest strength like crazy without bothering my bicep tendons like paused benching used to.
I don’t flare my elbows at the bottom usually, but I tried that particular combination and that was maybe the first time ever I actually got a good chest workout from benching. Still don’t like it on the shoulders though (elbows flared) so I stopped doing it (and I’d rather not tear a pec with the big weights). For those using the bench as an actual chest exercise though, it might be worth a try… Watch SincityIron’s vids… I got the idea from those…
Works a lot better for me all-around than the old Ronnie-style bottom 3/4ths only kind of benching ever did (and that periodically annoys my tendons and leaves me weak at the bottom, actually).
Need strong arms to stop the bar in the air though if it’s real heavy… I had to adjust my technique some too… Very different from touch and go or bouncing.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
For god’s sake man, Bring the bar to your chest. Do you want to have a shitty chest?
When you have sex, do you only stick half your dick in?
FFS i hate it when i see a dumb punk in the gym load up the bar with 315, and fuckin only bring the bar down to 4 inches above the chest. Same thing with curls, I know some people do lower 1/2 and then higher 1/2, but i see stupid guy do nothing but top half rep curls for like 10 sets of fucking 40.
Sorry.[/quote]
I’ll just keep not touching my chest anyway, thank you, seeing as how it’s brought up my off-the-chest strength like crazy without bothering my bicep tendons like paused benching used to.
I don’t flare my elbows at the bottom usually, but I tried that particular combination and that was maybe the first time ever I actually got a good chest workout from benching. Still don’t like it on the shoulders though (elbows flared) so I stopped doing it (and I’d rather not tear a pec with the big weights). For those using the bench as an actual chest exercise though, it might be worth a try… Watch SincityIron’s vids… I got the idea from those…
Works a lot better for me all-around than the old Ronnie-style bottom 3/4ths only kind of benching ever did (and that periodically annoys my tendons and leaves me weak at the bottom, actually).
Need strong arms to stop the bar in the air though if it’s real heavy… I had to adjust my technique some too… Very different from touch and go or bouncing.
[/quote]
You’re an advanced lifter. What works for you works for you, but do you really think that a new guy shouldn’t start out by lowering the bar all the way down?
And it doesn’t necessarily have to be touch and go or a bounce. Soft-pause benching is an excellent habit to get into.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I have no idea what the relevance of someones height is WRT to this.
How does your height affect your flexibility? [/quote]
I would think arm length would have more to do with that than height.
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I have no idea what the relevance of someones height is WRT to this.
How does your height affect your flexibility? [/quote]
I would think arm length would have more to do with that than height.[/quote]
Really? Who has worse flexibility? Long armed guys. Or short armed guys
Do long arms cause poor flexibility or does poor flexibility cause long arms
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
For god’s sake man, Bring the bar to your chest. Do you want to have a shitty chest?
When you have sex, do you only stick half your dick in?
FFS i hate it when i see a dumb punk in the gym load up the bar with 315, and fuckin only bring the bar down to 4 inches above the chest. Same thing with curls, I know some people do lower 1/2 and then higher 1/2, but i see stupid guy do nothing but top half rep curls for like 10 sets of fucking 40.
Sorry.[/quote]
I’ll just keep not touching my chest anyway, thank you, seeing as how it’s brought up my off-the-chest strength like crazy without bothering my bicep tendons like paused benching used to.
I don’t flare my elbows at the bottom usually, but I tried that particular combination and that was maybe the first time ever I actually got a good chest workout from benching. Still don’t like it on the shoulders though (elbows flared) so I stopped doing it (and I’d rather not tear a pec with the big weights). For those using the bench as an actual chest exercise though, it might be worth a try… Watch SincityIron’s vids… I got the idea from those…
Works a lot better for me all-around than the old Ronnie-style bottom 3/4ths only kind of benching ever did (and that periodically annoys my tendons and leaves me weak at the bottom, actually).
Need strong arms to stop the bar in the air though if it’s real heavy… I had to adjust my technique some too… Very different from touch and go or bouncing.
[/quote]
You’re an advanced lifter. What works for you works for you, but do you really think that a new guy shouldn’t start out by lowering the bar all the way down?
[/quote] I think the new guy should try what feels best and allows him to progress the fastest.
May sound cliche, but come on… The idea that one must touch one’s chest on the bench isn’t all that different from people saying that if you don’t do standing military presses, you’re pussy, or that everyone must get their chin over the bar on a pull-up, or be bent-over at a 90 degree angle on rows… Or hell, use a 4-6 inch grip on close-grip presses.
I’m not talking about guys turning the bench into some sort of top-half press, just actually using muscular strength to stop the bar (and stopping it at a height where it doesn’t bother your tendons or whatever, if that is otherwise a problem).
[quote]
And it doesn’t necessarily have to be touch and go or a bounce. Soft-pause benching is an excellent habit to get into.[/quote]
May really depend on how you’re built… Long arms = more ROM at the shoulder joint while benching, not necessarily a good thing…
IMO the more you are built for a certain lift, the more often you can train it heavy/the more volume etc you can tolerate on it and do full ROM and whatnot… Someone like Jeremy Hoornstra can bench for a heavy single, double or triple every week and still live through it just fine and keep making progress… Others will likely encounter far greater troubles doing that than he ever did.
Now if someone lets his ROM get smaller and smaller the heavier he goes simply because he can’t otherwise lift the weight, of if he isn’t getting results from what he does or whatever… That’s certainly doing it wrong…
Got to stay in diagnostic mode constantly and make sure you’re progressing all right, not getting injured, that everything you’re doing is fulfilling it’s intended purpose (exercises, technique, food, whatever)… Some people just totally can’t do that apparently, they’ll read something on the net or wherever, take it for the universal truth and keep doing it no matter what…
FWIW I’m not trying to be an ass to you or anything man. Just realized my first post in this thread might have come across a little different in tone than I intended it.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I have no idea what the relevance of someones height is WRT to this.
How does your height affect your flexibility? [/quote]
I would think arm length would have more to do with that than height.[/quote]
Really? Who has worse flexibility? Long armed guys. Or short armed guys
Do long arms cause poor flexibility or does poor flexibility cause long arms [/quote]
Flexibility was probably the wrong word in the first place… Dunno.
I’ve never met a healthy individual in the gym who didn’t have the flexibility to touch the bar to his or her chest.
Now, going all the way down, all the time, causing them discomfort or slowing their progress? Sure… Usually with very long-armed guys (and again, maybe shoulder structure plays a role, but I don’t have x-ray vision…) and beginners with little upper body mass.
If he can’t touch, he must be rounding his shoulders big-time or something…?
[quote]rocket man 400 wrote:
"First of all let me tell you the strongest men naturally ( meaning no bench shirts) in the bench press all have short arms and thick barrel chests. The range of motion is very short compared to what guys with a more normal physique have. Guys that are tall and with long arms move the bar a great deal more… In fact more work is done as you are moving the bar a greater distance everything else being equal.
Everyone seems to think a full range of motion is vital for complete development…Ever look at the angles of the arm/elbow/shoulder of these short armed guys versus the angle of the long arm guys? Huge difference!! If larger range of motion meant better development… heck the guys with the longest bench movement would be the most muscular, massive men around… but as most of you know it is the other way around!! The only place where full range is required is in a powerlifting contest. Or if you stick to typical gym lore… you must touch your chest… But for most of us… this leads to poor progress in the bench as our leverages are quite bad in the low position… leading to shoulder problems…frustration with a stalled bench …lack of strength and development from this great movement…
I challenge you to figure out exactly what the angle should be for your own unique situation and go with that… you will make much more progress in your strength and develpment for sure. Try doing partials from different heights…try doing floor presses where your elbow/upper arm limits the motion(by the way, most thick chested, short arm guys do a full range , touching their chest when they do a floor press, but of course most cannot, but your angles(leverage) will be better, more like the shorter armed guys."
-Flex Magazine[/quote]
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]CannonFodder wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering how far you tall guys lower the bar to your chest when you bench? I am just under 6"3, and when I am benching, I find lowering the weight right to my chest makes me push my elbows back further then I would normally like too.
I find it easier to crank out more reps and less discomfort when lower the bar about 2 inches from my chest.
How about you guys, do you go all the way down when you bench?
[/quote]
I’m not tall (5’10"), but every guy I know who trains serious - tall or average or short - lowers the bar to the chest.
Are you trying to say the elbows drift outward or actually BACK?
Where on the chest are you attempting to lower it–nipples or middle or upper chest? I think you might be able to correct your problem by learning how to bench PROPERLY. That is, lowering and pinching your shoulder blades, pressing your head into the bench, and having your elbows in line with your wrists.
[/quote]
Yeah, setup is very important here… Lots and LOTS of people totally fucking that up or just generally not having a damn clue that benching is more than just laying down on the bench and pressing the bar up and down.
And I know a whole bunch of serious trainees who (in training, not in competition obviously) stop the bar just shy off the chest. Whatever works.