I think looking up at the skies, when the sun hits it right, before human flight, it would probably look like a great place for afterlife. Then humans managed to fly up there, and did some mental acrobatics to adjust that no, by heaven we didnt mean heaven, but another dimension heaven.
To me, Heaven is a front-row seat behind the Grassy Knoll AND in the 6th story of the Texas Schoolbook Depository at the same time.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Isn’t Heaven just a place where you can make shit up and then judge others for not believing it?[/quote]
No, that’s the Climate Research Unit.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Because I’ve been through some shit in my day and every time I asked for help, comfort or relief, all I got was a big fat nothing…[/quote]
I’ve read your story a number of times now; I’m certainly not discounting your effort; however it reads like a series of divine interventions. Helping those that help themselves in mysterious ways…or something like that.
I have always belived you live in your mind after you die , if you were a good person you live with good things and if you were bad you live with those . It would cover everything from degrees of bad to degrees of good
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I have always belived you live in your mind after you die , if you were a good person you live with good things and if you were bad you live with those . It would cover everything from degrees of bad to degrees of good [/quote]
o_0
Like this…
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
yeah…
If I am going to put enough effort into a bullshit belief, I think I would stick with the Valhalla plan.
i agree with AC - and this is a hot button issue.
BUT… in order to gain admission into Valhalla, you have to die, in battle with your weapon in your hand. cant do it from an old folks home…
thats the shits~[/quote]
You could always just head over to Ukraine and fight on whichever side you want and launch a suicidal attack.
I’m sure the heroes of Valhalla would welcome such an individual.
[/quote]
yeah - sounds like a good plan, do they still fight with swords and shields there?
and… is there a rainbow bridge? this is important shit~
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I have always belived you live in your mind after you die , if you were a good person you live with good things and if you were bad you live with those . It would cover everything from degrees of bad to degrees of good [/quote]
o_0
Like this…[/quote]
you almost have it 
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind?[/quote]
I opened it I guess.
I got to the point where I challenged myself to be that annoying asshole that found the silver lining in everything. (This has a lot to do with personal issues with my childhood, etc.) By the time I got around to religion I actually took an honest look at the good stuff people do because of it. I focused on individuals not organizations and I really softened my approach.
Don’t get me wrong, the few and far between times I’m in a church and the people there are trying to sell me on some of the crazy stories I eye roll like crazy, but I try and see the “moral of the story” and assume most people don’t take that shit literally.
lol.
Two things here:
-
Jesus was a great dude no doubt, but he doesn’t factor into any relationship I have with a higher power.
-
If it has to strictly follow one of the major religions, then no, I don’t believe in God. As in, I’m not a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or any of that by any stretch, and I’m not comfortable with the a lot of the organizations involved in religion enough to be part of them. (In some ways they are wonderful, charity work, hospitals, etc)
What I have faith in a “Grand Architect”. Something that laid out the blue prints of the whole mess we call life. I just can’t swallow this is all random, meaningless, well, shit… Call it karma, nature, God, the Force, whatever, I believe in something. That something is a very personal experience, sort of like love. No one knows or loves my daughter like I know and love my daughter, same type thing when it comes to God and me.
Every time I’ve begged and pleaded shit seemed to get worse lol. Which made the original problems seem a lot less significant. So I decided to be the annoying asshole that finds the silver lining in everything I can.
[/quote]
This is a big tangent, but it’s PWI…
I find it weird when people don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus call him a great person. If he was not at least something like divine he was either the biggest lying narcissistic arrogant con man of all time, or he was a complete psychotic lunatic. Have you ever really read the Gospels? Between his saying like “I am the way” and “to know me is to know God” not to mention where he does things like claim to allow the very air to the person asking him a question. And that doesn’t even speak to the amazing religious and cultural balls he had when he did things like forgive sins in fights he wasn’t involved in or claiming to be lord over the Sabath. I mean think about that. Say your business partner screwed you, then this religious wanderer guy shows up and tells everyone that your partner is forgiven for wronging you, without ever even talking to YOU, the guy he wronged. Would you not call that vast arrogance?
I’m honestly curious, do you overlook that side of him, or maybe think those are false quotes? Or maybe you ignore what he is quoted as saying and focus on his meeker actions?
To me, that’s one of the most powerful things about the Jesus narrative. He was incredibly ballsy, arrogant, commanding, demanding, authoritative, and even narcissistic. BUT somehow he always leaves people with the impression of meekness, humility, and service. Somehow, he’s both in the narrative. But his meekness and service is so powerful, people seem to not even recognize the other side.
As for the life after death, my current understanding of the Bible seems to indicate it is a physical place. It would seem to be something like a restarting of the world without man’s fall. What this world was supposed to be. Jesus, prepared for heaven, had a physical body with supernatural abilities, getting in locked rooms and such, but still ate regular food.
Really the “heavens” the Bible refers to are physical spheres. The first heaven is basically the air around us. Not some distant place.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Because I’ve been through some shit in my day and every time I asked for help, comfort or relief, all I got was a big fat nothing…[/quote]
I’ve read your story a number of times now; I’m certainly not discounting your effort; however it reads like a series of divine interventions. Helping those that help themselves in mysterious ways…or something like that.
[/quote]
I will admit that I’m one of the luckiest son’s o bitches on the planet. Seriously, a cat’s nine lives ain’t got nothing on my life story - I burned up nine lives before I hit puberty. But I assure you that I’m JUST as unlucky! LOL I’ve made and lost a fortune, I’m completely ostracized from my family, I’m cursed with knowing what I know about women, so I can’t trust anyone, etc… (I’m gonna start crying myself a river here in a minute! LOL)
But I don’t have anything personal against “God”… Just the people who tell me how I have to “worship” him. I got a very good glimpse of how religion can warp a person’s mind with my second step father who used to whip me with extension cords as he read me scripture. He called it “casting the demons away”. So fuck that shit. I don’t want any part of it.
I’m not saying that ALL religious people are bad, I’m saying they don’t have the right to judge me for not believing the same things they do. I give away over $2,000.00 a month on average to people in need (people I know who are not doing well and have kids - I help out over 4 families). How many people can say that? That’s a little less than 10% of my gross, but it’s a hell of a lot more than the average churchgoer who tells me I’m gonna go to hell for my “sins”… Sometimes it’s more than that. So I’m charitable. And I don’t do it because my “religion” tells me to do it, I do it because I don’t forget where I came from and now that I’m doing well, I want to help the people that I care about. I didn’t need “Jesus” or “the church” to tell me to do that! It’s just the right thing to do…
In short, I don’t NEED religion to give me a set of guidelines on how to behave. I figured out my own code a long time ago. It’s been evolving in a positive direction ever since. Some of it fit’s right in with many religious ideals, some of it doesn’t. But it’s MINE. I didn’t read it from some book written a thousand years ago that assumed I was an illiterate peasant and was designed to manipulate me. I observed my life and the lives of those around me and made some rational decisions and judgements based on those observations. The result is that I’m a VERY happy individual. I am not saddled with guilt or shame about any “rule” that I’m breaking and have to confess for. I move through my life helping those who I can move in a positive direction - whatever that means for them. I don’t go out of my way to hurt anyone or initiate conflict. But if conflict is directed at me and someone has it coming, I’ll break a dick off in their ass without thinking twice about it. People tend to fuck with you less that way and you are able to live a very peaceful existence overall. So that’s what I do.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind?[/quote]
I opened it I guess.
I got to the point where I challenged myself to be that annoying asshole that found the silver lining in everything. (This has a lot to do with personal issues with my childhood, etc.) By the time I got around to religion I actually took an honest look at the good stuff people do because of it. I focused on individuals not organizations and I really softened my approach.
Don’t get me wrong, the few and far between times I’m in a church and the people there are trying to sell me on some of the crazy stories I eye roll like crazy, but I try and see the “moral of the story” and assume most people don’t take that shit literally.
lol.
Two things here:
-
Jesus was a great dude no doubt, but he doesn’t factor into any relationship I have with a higher power.
-
If it has to strictly follow one of the major religions, then no, I don’t believe in God. As in, I’m not a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or any of that by any stretch, and I’m not comfortable with the a lot of the organizations involved in religion enough to be part of them. (In some ways they are wonderful, charity work, hospitals, etc)
What I have faith in a “Grand Architect”. Something that laid out the blue prints of the whole mess we call life. I just can’t swallow this is all random, meaningless, well, shit… Call it karma, nature, God, the Force, whatever, I believe in something. That something is a very personal experience, sort of like love. No one knows or loves my daughter like I know and love my daughter, same type thing when it comes to God and me.
Every time I’ve begged and pleaded shit seemed to get worse lol. Which made the original problems seem a lot less significant. So I decided to be the annoying asshole that finds the silver lining in everything I can.
[/quote]
This is a big tangent, but it’s PWIâ?¦
I find it weird when people don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus call him a great person. If he was not at least something like divine he was either the biggest lying narcissistic arrogant con man of all time, or he was a complete psychotic lunatic. Have you ever really read the Gospels? Between his saying like “I am the way” and “to know me is to know God” not to mention where he does things like claim to allow the very air to the person asking him a question. And that doesn’t even speak to the amazing religious and cultural balls he had when he did things like forgive sins in fights he wasn’t involved in or claiming to be lord over the Sabath. I mean think about that. Say your business partner screwed you, then this religious wanderer guy shows up and tells everyone that your partner is forgiven for wronging you, without ever even talking to YOU, the guy he wronged. Would you not call that vast arrogance?
I’m honestly curious, do you overlook that side of him, or maybe think those are false quotes? Or maybe you ignore what he is quoted as saying and focus on his meeker actions?
To me, that’s one of the most powerful things about the Jesus narrative. He was incredibly ballsy, arrogant, commanding, demanding, authoritative, and even narcissistic. BUT somehow he always leaves people with the impression of meekness, humility, and service. Somehow, he’s both in the narrative. But his meekness and service is so powerful, people seem to not even recognize the other side.[/quote]
Personally, I see the account of Jesus as a mythologized and exaggerated account of a real man. The setting was perfect for this. You have the destruction of the temple in the 1st century which led to a loss of ‘standardization’ of Judaism and a single empire covering a massive amount of land and sea allowing the story to spread. Initially, there were several narratives with some very different key points, but ultimately one won out over the others and eventually became canonized.
I won’t really be able to go into any more depth until the weekend.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Because I’ve been through some shit in my day and every time I asked for help, comfort or relief, all I got was a big fat nothing…[/quote]
I’ve read your story a number of times now; I’m certainly not discounting your effort; however it reads like a series of divine interventions. Helping those that help themselves in mysterious ways…or something like that.
[/quote]
I will admit that I’m one of the luckiest son’s o bitches on the planet. Seriously, a cat’s nine lives ain’t got nothing on my life story - I burned up nine lives before I hit puberty. But I assure you that I’m JUST as unlucky! LOL I’ve made and lost a fortune, I’m completely ostracized from my family, I’m cursed with knowing what I know about women, so I can’t trust anyone, etc… (I’m gonna start crying myself a river here in a minute! LOL)
But I don’t have anything personal against “God”… Just the people who tell me how I have to “worship” him. I got a very good glimpse of how religion can warp a person’s mind with my second step father who used to whip me with extension cords as he read me scripture. He called it “casting the demons away”. So fuck that shit. I don’t want any part of it.
I’m not saying that ALL religious people are bad, I’m saying they don’t have the right to judge me for not believing the same things they do. I give away over $2,000.00 a month on average to people in need (people I know who are not doing well and have kids - I help out over 4 families). How many people can say that? That’s a little less than 10% of my gross, but it’s a hell of a lot more than the average churchgoer who tells me I’m gonna go to hell for my “sins”… Sometimes it’s more than that. So I’m charitable. And I don’t do it because my “religion” tells me to do it, I do it because I don’t forget where I came from and now that I’m doing well, I want to help the people that I care about. I didn’t need “Jesus” or “the church” to tell me to do that! It’s just the right thing to do…
In short, I don’t NEED religion to give me a set of guidelines on how to behave. I figured out my own code a long time ago. It’s been evolving in a positive direction ever since. Some of it fit’s right in with many religious ideals, some of it doesn’t. But it’s MINE. I didn’t read it from some book written a thousand years ago that assumed I was an illiterate peasant and was designed to manipulate me. I observed my life and the lives of those around me and made some rational decisions and judgements based on those observations. The result is that I’m a VERY happy individual. I am not saddled with guilt or shame about any “rule” that I’m breaking and have to confess for. I move through my life helping those who I can move in a positive direction - whatever that means for them. I don’t go out of my way to hurt anyone or initiate conflict. But if conflict is directed at me and someone has it coming, I’ll break a dick off in their ass without thinking twice about it. People tend to fuck with you less that way and you are able to live a very peaceful existence overall. So that’s what I do.
[/quote]
You guys have been to some crazy ass churches.
I do agree that the actions of many “Christians” is a turn off to the sect. And if you aren’t full of shit, you are probably a better Christian than a lot of people at church every Sunday. God did say “I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts”, so if you are following those things, you’re probably doing far better than most.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If you used to think a lot like I do, what caused you to change your mind?[/quote]
I opened it I guess.
I got to the point where I challenged myself to be that annoying asshole that found the silver lining in everything. (This has a lot to do with personal issues with my childhood, etc.) By the time I got around to religion I actually took an honest look at the good stuff people do because of it. I focused on individuals not organizations and I really softened my approach.
Don’t get me wrong, the few and far between times I’m in a church and the people there are trying to sell me on some of the crazy stories I eye roll like crazy, but I try and see the “moral of the story” and assume most people don’t take that shit literally.
lol.
Two things here:
-
Jesus was a great dude no doubt, but he doesn’t factor into any relationship I have with a higher power.
-
If it has to strictly follow one of the major religions, then no, I don’t believe in God. As in, I’m not a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim or any of that by any stretch, and I’m not comfortable with the a lot of the organizations involved in religion enough to be part of them. (In some ways they are wonderful, charity work, hospitals, etc)
What I have faith in a “Grand Architect”. Something that laid out the blue prints of the whole mess we call life. I just can’t swallow this is all random, meaningless, well, shit… Call it karma, nature, God, the Force, whatever, I believe in something. That something is a very personal experience, sort of like love. No one knows or loves my daughter like I know and love my daughter, same type thing when it comes to God and me.
Every time I’ve begged and pleaded shit seemed to get worse lol. Which made the original problems seem a lot less significant. So I decided to be the annoying asshole that finds the silver lining in everything I can.
[/quote]
This is a big tangent, but it’s PWIÃ?¢?Ã?¦
I find it weird when people don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus call him a great person. If he was not at least something like divine he was either the biggest lying narcissistic arrogant con man of all time, or he was a complete psychotic lunatic. Have you ever really read the Gospels? Between his saying like “I am the way” and “to know me is to know God” not to mention where he does things like claim to allow the very air to the person asking him a question. And that doesn’t even speak to the amazing religious and cultural balls he had when he did things like forgive sins in fights he wasn’t involved in or claiming to be lord over the Sabath. I mean think about that. Say your business partner screwed you, then this religious wanderer guy shows up and tells everyone that your partner is forgiven for wronging you, without ever even talking to YOU, the guy he wronged. Would you not call that vast arrogance?
I’m honestly curious, do you overlook that side of him, or maybe think those are false quotes? Or maybe you ignore what he is quoted as saying and focus on his meeker actions?
To me, that’s one of the most powerful things about the Jesus narrative. He was incredibly ballsy, arrogant, commanding, demanding, authoritative, and even narcissistic. BUT somehow he always leaves people with the impression of meekness, humility, and service. Somehow, he’s both in the narrative. But his meekness and service is so powerful, people seem to not even recognize the other side.[/quote]
Personally, I see the account of Jesus as a mythologized and exaggerated account of a real man. The setting was perfect for this. You have the destruction of the temple in the 1st century which led to a loss of ‘standardization’ of Judaism and a single empire covering a massive amount of land and sea allowing the story to spread. Initially, there were several narratives with some very different key points, but ultimately one won out over the others and eventually became canonized.
I won’t really be able to go into any more depth until the weekend. [/quote]
So, basically, you just think those are false quotes? Which is a coherent argument. But without believing those sources, on what basis could you call him really awesome?
I disagree. The initial narrative for which there is pretty good evidence, was pretty unified. Divergence came latter and were then latter re-unified. In fact, it’s kind of interesting some of the gaps in the recorded initial documented teachings because certain aspects of doctrine where considered a given early on and weren’t in need of codification (like Jesus’ divinity), but were then later diverged and were argued. But this is probably a whole other argument.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Have you ever really read the Gospels? [/quote]
No, but I have seen the good the people who follow them have brought into the world. (Yes, there is some bad, but anyway…)
And that is what I base my rather positive opinion of the man on.
Think of it like Steve Jobs. Dude was a douche. He stabbed people in the back, walked on people, and was generally a giant ass. But that isn’t how the narrative that surrounds him goes now, does it? Lincoln, the Founding Fathers, people get “revisionist” by history sometimes.
Which leads me to:
False is the wrong descriptor, embellished maybe. Taken out of context, lost in translation, romanticized… I don’t know the best way to put it, other than it’s not necessary to take it literal in order to get a message that generally leads in a good direction.
I guess I would say I don’t focus on him at all. I focus on the good that has happened in the world in his “name”, or the good that people have attributed to their belief in him or his words.
But then again, understand my perspective is a lot more “fluid” than I assume yours to be.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Have you ever really read the Gospels? [/quote]
No, but I have seen the good the people who follow them have brought into the world. (Yes, there is some bad, but anyway…)
And that is what I base my rather positive opinion of the man on.
Think of it like Steve Jobs. Dude was a douche. He stabbed people in the back, walked on people, and was generally a giant ass. But that isn’t how the narrative that surrounds him goes now, does it? Lincoln, the Founding Fathers, people get “revisionist” by history sometimes.
Which leads me to:
False is the wrong descriptor, embellished maybe. Taken out of context, lost in translation, romanticized… I don’t know the best way to put it, other than it’s not necessary to take it literal in order to get a message that generally leads in a good direction.
I guess I would say I don’t focus on him at all. I focus on the good that has happened in the world in his “name”, or the good that people have attributed to their belief in him or his words.
But then again, understand my perspective is a lot more “fluid” than I assume yours to be.
[/quote]
I’m pretty fluid. I like my Christianity like I like my training, just the basics. “I think”, “I believe”, and “I know” are 3 very different things in my faith. The things included in the 3rd one are pretty slim. MOST of institutional dogma is in the first and is absolutely fluid for me. Most of the squabbles between denominations and such I consider unimportant and probably unknowable. Why people tend to demand and divide over what they only think I’ve never understood.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
It doesn’t.
[/quote]
Dangit!!! You beat me to it! Except I wasn’t going to give an elaborate reason why, I was just going to be crass and bitterly pessimistic :)[/quote]
Haha, I was considering it. I almost made them two posts, to keep the bristly remark on its own.
Heaven works the same way Santa bringing you presents on Christmas morning if you behaved well works.
Only children need fantastical promises of rewards in order to do the right thing on a regular basis.
Why don’t Libertarians argue that Heaven is violent coercion?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Heaven works the same way Santa bringing you presents on Christmas morning if you behaved well works.
Only children need fantastical promises of rewards in order to do the right thing on a regular basis.
Why don’t Libertarians argue that Heaven is violent coercion?[/quote]
What part is violent?
