[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
how about tipping strippers?
I talked with a guy that tipped on top of the table dance cost. Seemed pretty silly[/quote]
Really? That does seem odd. Unless of course he got a handy or something under the table. Maybe then…
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
So, for whatever reason, we’ve settled on a less efficient system of compensation for service people, at least in food - if restaurant owners were forced to pay the minimum wage, they could deduct the expense from their income. Instead, we have shifted that cost to the consumer, who cannot deduct it. This makes little sense - but whatever - not like I’m going to be able to change it.
Zap Branigan wrote:
But the higher food prices would be subject to sales tax.[/quote]
True - but in most jurisdictions sales tax is less than 10%, whereas an income tax deduction is generally worth more than that.
[quote]
Uncle Gabby wrote:
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the current system. For most of the service industry, having servers dependant on your tips insures that they will give good service. If they got paid a flat rate, there would be little incentive for them to go the extra mile.
I think the only problem is when servers think they are entitled to a tip regardless of how poor their service was. That and the tip jars. I also don’t think tips should be taxed, but most servers don’t report all of their tips anyway. [/quote]
I think that if we’re going to bother having a minimum wage, then we should have a minimum wage exclusive of tips. I dislike having servers imply that I have a moral obligation to provide them a “tip” because they make a low salary - as if my decision to patronize the restaurant gives me a moral obligation regarding their salary.
On the other hand, I agree with you that some dependence on tips is a good thing - service is definitely better in the U.S. than in Europe, where there is much less of a tipping culture.
BTW, as a rule I tip 15% and round up for acceptable service (and I’m really not that persnickety - I would have to perceive more than just incompetence, but essentially disinterest or rudeness to give a token tip) because that’s the cultural expectation and I don’t wish to offend unintentionally.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
persnickety [/quote]
you do realize you’ve completely lost the argument with the typing of that word.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
persnickety
medevac wrote:
you do realize you’ve completely lost the argument with the typing of that word.[/quote]
Pshaw!
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I have been to Mexico several times, the last time I was there , I saw the effects of tipping well, there were people 4 and 5 deep at the bar , but my drink came over top of every one else. It was like being a V.I.P.[/quote]
No truer words have ever been spoken!
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I think that if we’re going to bother having a minimum wage, then we should have a minimum wage exclusive of tips. I dislike having servers imply that I have a moral obligation to provide them a “tip” because they make a low salary - as if my decision to patronize the restaurant gives me a moral obligation regarding their salary.
[/quote]
Every place I’ve worked where tipping was part of the expected income still payed close to minimum wage, and in a few cases more. You have good tip days, like Fridays and Saturdays, and slow days like a Tuesday evening when servers may only have 1 or 2 tables an hour. So if you don’t pay them more than is required no one will want to work the slow days.
[quote]medevac wrote:
Well thats a bit of a context shift don’t you think? You were paid to do a hard job and not paid well. She was paid to do a hard job and expected to make a certain amount of money (what she would usually get paid for busting her ass) and someone pretty much robbed her. So it sucked from her perspective.
That’s like saying it didn’t matter that she got ripped off because she lives in uber-rich america and there’s a mexican kid working for 5 cents an hour and she should feel lucky.
The thread is about why tipping? And I was showing that due to their poor hourly wage, tips make or break them due to the crappy nature of some patrons (in this case they totally screwed her over, as well as her boss who made her cover the cost). What does you working hard have to do with anything?
For the record, I worked landscaping for two seasons here (also not gulag work) for $5 an hour. Doesn’t change the fact that the system as it is only allows for some service industry workers to eat only if the tips are good.
[/quote]
I wrote a longer reply this afternoon, but apparently the T-Nation server ate it.
The basic gist was that I originally posted mainly to point out that most servers I’ve been around have it pretty good. Their work isn’t all that difficult, and they still get paid more in the end than most other unskilled labor. They shouldn’t complain about tips too loudly.
At a bar recently where it was $2 you call its. I was buying a drink, hadnt tipped on the previous one, but planned on this one. Gave the guy a twenty (i was skeptical to do so to begin with) and said “17 back” he turned around and pocketed it and he ignored me the rest of the night. Fuckin prick.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
swivel wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
I usually tip 20%. People in the service industry are trying to make a living as well, so I feel they deserve closer to 20% than 15%.
When it comes to food, if the server doesn’t charge me for a soft drink/dessert/etc., then I make up that cost on the tip. So if a Coke is 2.19, I put that 2.19 on their tip plus extra to make up for not getting charged for those particular items.
so the waiters are paid $2.13 because of poor profitability in bars/restaurants, but you tip when they commit theft and give you something?
Tip the owner by insisting you pay for everything you order and get.
Tip the waiter according to the service they provide instead of the theft they commit.
it’s not theft, it’s investing in a customer. any good business gives back to it’s customers because it generates good will and repeat business. this is especially effective in bars and small independent restaurants which people typically use as an escape to feel good about themselves. spending your dinner worrying about measuring the monetary worth of your server does jack-all for bringing someone back to your restaurant next week. where-as giving them free stuff, and making them feel like it’s their birthday, like they’re on the inside getting the hooked up, does. nothing is a more powerful draw than getting stuff for “free”. yes it looks like a “loss” on paper but the gain is in the buzz about your business. the gain is about always being busy and having a scene in your place. the gain is in compelling your customers to return even when they can’t afford it because they’ll get “the special treatment”.
unless they have the owners full consent it is theft, period. It isn’t up to an employee to decide on their own.
Ever owned a bar/restaurant?
There is an invisible underground in career service industry circles. “A” goes to “B” place, gets “hooked up”, and drops a fat tip. B brags he had a $500 night, but then goes where A works and the same “courtesy” is extended. “A” then has a huge night. No real money is made as all this good will is extended at the owners expense. Some will actually short pour a few to make up for the hookup that was extended so that it looks good on paper.
It’s theft.
I have been in the service industry for 33 of my 41 years. Seen every aspect of it from corner saloon to stiff collar hotel. In every venue, there is this seedy side to an honest business.
[/quote]
yes my family owns a restaurant and i grew up working it. what you call the “seedy side” and the “underground” is a pretty fucked up way of looking at things because this is what true hospitality is all about: my house = your house. there are several family owned restaurants in my town and when employees from another restaurant come to ours we hook them up as a matter of course. and they do the same for us. workers from other restaurants ALWAYS get something free, as do regular customers. maybe drinks, maybe dessert, or an app whatever…they always get something. waiters would get their balls handed to them for NOT comping stuff for employees from the other restaurants. they are good for business, they bring people in late and they bring life to the bar. not to mention it’s just the right thing to do because it’s true hospitality and it’s what separates the real restaurateurs from the posers who are just in it for the money.
as for hooking up other customers or your friends, or people who might not be approved by management calling it “theft period” is way too simple. good employees are hard to find and not easily replaced. they are valuable. i could write a few paragraphs here but what’s it’s really about is this: if the employee sucks then it could be “theft”. if the employee is good it’s more like acceptable loss: the benefits outweigh the costs.
The bottom line is this really. Dont wanna tip? Go to McDonalds or burger king or any number of places that dont expect you to do it.
If you receive shitty service…chances are the waiter knows it and will not be expecting a good tip. There have been plenty of times when I have been B-U-S-Y, and hell even slow, and have messed up and gotten a low tip or no tip and went “Yep…thats fair, I messed up big time”
Tips are the incentive for a server to do a good job. If I dont get you want you want in a timely manner, my pay goes down. The only incentive I have to get you refills, get your food out quick, pre bus your table, get you napkins, get your dressing,sing happy birthday, and just generally make sure you dining experience goes well is to ensure a good tip.
[quote]Boyder326 wrote:
At a bar recently where it was $2 you call its. I was buying a drink, hadnt tipped on the previous one, but planned on this one. Gave the guy a twenty (i was skeptical to do so to begin with) and said “17 back” he turned around and pocketed it and he ignored me the rest of the night. Fuckin prick.[/quote]
Thats called theft and should have been reported appropriately. You should not have given him the option to ignore you the rest of the night.
[quote]swivel wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
swivel wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
I usually tip 20%. People in the service industry are trying to make a living as well, so I feel they deserve closer to 20% than 15%.
When it comes to food, if the server doesn’t charge me for a soft drink/dessert/etc., then I make up that cost on the tip. So if a Coke is 2.19, I put that 2.19 on their tip plus extra to make up for not getting charged for those particular items.
so the waiters are paid $2.13 because of poor profitability in bars/restaurants, but you tip when they commit theft and give you something?
Tip the owner by insisting you pay for everything you order and get.
Tip the waiter according to the service they provide instead of the theft they commit.
it’s not theft, it’s investing in a customer. any good business gives back to it’s customers because it generates good will and repeat business. this is especially effective in bars and small independent restaurants which people typically use as an escape to feel good about themselves. spending your dinner worrying about measuring the monetary worth of your server does jack-all for bringing someone back to your restaurant next week. where-as giving them free stuff, and making them feel like it’s their birthday, like they’re on the inside getting the hooked up, does. nothing is a more powerful draw than getting stuff for “free”. yes it looks like a “loss” on paper but the gain is in the buzz about your business. the gain is about always being busy and having a scene in your place. the gain is in compelling your customers to return even when they can’t afford it because they’ll get “the special treatment”.
unless they have the owners full consent it is theft, period. It isn’t up to an employee to decide on their own.
Ever owned a bar/restaurant?
There is an invisible underground in career service industry circles. “A” goes to “B” place, gets “hooked up”, and drops a fat tip. B brags he had a $500 night, but then goes where A works and the same “courtesy” is extended. “A” then has a huge night. No real money is made as all this good will is extended at the owners expense. Some will actually short pour a few to make up for the hookup that was extended so that it looks good on paper.
It’s theft.
I have been in the service industry for 33 of my 41 years. Seen every aspect of it from corner saloon to stiff collar hotel. In every venue, there is this seedy side to an honest business.
yes my family owns a restaurant and i grew up working it. what you call the “seedy side” and the “underground” is a pretty fucked up way of looking at things because this is what true hospitality is all about: my house = your house. there are several family owned restaurants in my town and when employees from another restaurant come to ours we hook them up as a matter of course. and they do the same for us. workers from other restaurants ALWAYS get something free, as do regular customers. maybe drinks, maybe dessert, or an app whatever…they always get something. waiters would get their balls handed to them for NOT comping stuff for employees from the other restaurants. they are good for business, they bring people in late and they bring life to the bar. not to mention it’s just the right thing to do because it’s true hospitality and it’s what separates the real restaurateurs from the posers who are just in it for the money.
as for hooking up other customers or your friends, or people who might not be approved by management calling it “theft period” is way too simple. good employees are hard to find and not easily replaced. they are valuable. i could write a few paragraphs here but what’s it’s really about is this: if the employee sucks then it could be “theft”. if the employee is good it’s more like acceptable loss: the benefits outweigh the costs.
[/quote]
A comp or two is different than what I have seen, have investigated, etc. Yes if there is a standing policy of a comp, the comp is documented,blah blah. But to brag drinking all night and having a $5 tab, when it should have been around $30 bucks or more. Bringing in business, understood but when this is the shit that goes on, your business is better off if they never hit the door. Thing is, some are real stupid about it.
When a regular sits and hangs with an industry guest, and they get their tabs at the same time, “dooood’s” is extremely light and regular joe gets his and there is one comp and he is in the $30 range…that’s a problem.
I guess we can just disagree on this. One long paragraph just to get to that point.
I used to have coffee with my Father , we would sit and drink coffee for a couple hours and the bill would be a couple bucks.I would pay the bill and leave a %400 tip
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I used to have coffee with my Father , we would sit and drink coffee for a couple hours and the bill would be a couple bucks.I would pay the bill and leave a %400 tip[/quote]
This is generally a good policy too. If you are going to sit at the table twice as long as normal AND you are preventing another tipping table from sitting there, it is a nice gesture to leave a larger tip. If it is 2-4pm and you arent preventing another table from sitting down and leaving a tip, just tip normally.
Also, if you split a meal and the bill for 2 people is 10 bucks or less, you might want to kick down what you NORMALLY would have tipped if you both ate. 15% is the general rule based off of what most people do… which is not split meals. Just because you got your bill down to 8 dollars by drinking water and splitting a meal doesnt mean a 1.20 tip is appropriate because hey, its still 15 percent.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I used to have coffee with my Father , we would sit and drink coffee for a couple hours and the bill would be a couple bucks.I would pay the bill and leave a %400 tip
This is generally a good policy too. If you are going to sit at the table twice as long as normal AND you are preventing another tipping table from sitting there, it is a nice gesture to leave a larger tip. If it is 2-4pm and you arent preventing another table from sitting down and leaving a tip, just tip normally.
Also, if you split a meal and the bill for 2 people is 10 bucks or less, you might want to kick down what you NORMALLY would have tipped if you both ate. 15% is the general rule based off of what most people do… which is not split meals. Just because you got your bill down to 8 dollars by drinking water and splitting a meal doesnt mean a 1.20 tip is appropriate because hey, its still 15 percent.[/quote]
The way I look at it is the waitress gave us excellent service for a couple hours , I should pay her for her labor. Besides it did not break me.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
I don’t tip a buck a beer. I do it the first round or so, then periodically.
Normally I run a tab and tip that 20% or so.
[/quote]
This is what I (used to) do. I figured rather than pay every single time i get a beer, rather than tip every round (and the worst is when the beer is 3.75 or 4.75 - not out of the ordinary here at all in ny. when you pay in cash with a 5 or 10, the change is 1.25 or .25 so you either look like a miser taking the quarter and leaving the dollar, or you take the dollar, leaving the quarter as the only tip, OR you leave teh dollar and quarter tipping a gosh darn 33 freaking % on a freaking beer) and by putting it on my credit card i’d get reward points.
Funny thing - once i went out to meet people after work. thinking i had gotten tehre a little early i opened a tab and had ONE beer. While drinking my beer I realized people were already there and had gotten a table outside in the back, so i went out, sat down, enjoyed some food, a couple of beers but not much, and then threw in money for the table.
I go inside at the end of the night to get my card, whihc should have ONE drink on it, and the tab was for 27$ I didnt act aggressively, just confused and insistent that thered been a mistake. Of course they acted like i was drunk and just disputing the charges. Fortunately the waitress who served my tabel was there and vouched for me that she hadnt charged anything to my tab - didnt even know i had a tab. In the end they just let it go (which was jsut as well, becaus eri was perfectly willing to grab my card and just walk out) but bottomline is eitehr some bartender was incompetent or crooked. Never woulda caught it if i had lost count of my drinks, or been really trashed … definitely makes me think twice now
[quote]Chewie wrote:
Has anyone else come across the situation where you get a bill for $21, give them two twenties and they take forever to come back? This has happened to me more than once.
You give them the cash and you wait and wait while they hope you get frustrated and leave. It is completely obvious when the whole meal takes thirty minutes and they take forty five minutes to give you your change. This results in a one dollar tip.
What about the situation where you buy a four dollar drink with a five and the bartender takes your dollar and puts it in the tip jar?
Or how about the situation where the same drink costs a different price depending upon the bartender who serves you? [/quote]
Happens to me ALL the time. I only play with a debit card so they have no excuse to take that long. Same goes with every where else. I won’t buy pizza at the mall w/o it unless i have exact change.
I don’t believe in tip jars. You run a business, you set your rates for cost of merchandise and how much you will pay your employees. Not my responsibility. If you want more money, get a better education, worker harder, get a different job, start sucking a LOT of dick or something else to work up the ladder.
Wiki defines tipping as:
A tip is a payment made to certain service sector workers beyond the advertised price. The amount of a tip is typically computed as a percent of the transaction minus taxes.[1] These payments and their size are a matter of social custom.
Tipping varies among cultures and by service industry. Though by definition a tip is never legally required, and its amount is at the discretion of the person being served, in some circumstances failing to give an adequate tip when one is expected would be considered very miserly, a violation of etiquette, or unethical.
In some other cultures or situations, giving a tip is not expected and offering one would be considered condescending or demeaning. In some circumstances (such as tipping government workers), tipping is illegal.
Question:
How is not tipping ever unethical? I don’t dole out pay checks? Its not my responsibility.
Once again, this goes back to the whole “Mr. Pink” topic that goatboy brought up in the other tip thread. You tips some people some of the time, but others you never tip? Why don’t I get a tip when I work and bust my ass? Hell, I interned 6 months straight and worked harder than anyone else where I was, and I didn’t expect a tip, even when I’d work 12 hours days.
What would happen if people said, “I don’t have to tip, so I won’t?” How would the IRS, employers and the government deal with this? Ask people to tip? Pshhh, as if that would work. Pay people fairly.
A job is a job, right? Either tip everyone or tip no one. Too much picking and choosing…
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
Chewie wrote:
Has anyone else come across the situation where you get a bill for $21, give them two twenties and they take forever to come back? This has happened to me more than once.
You give them the cash and you wait and wait while they hope you get frustrated and leave. It is completely obvious when the whole meal takes thirty minutes and they take forty five minutes to give you your change. This results in a one dollar tip.
What about the situation where you buy a four dollar drink with a five and the bartender takes your dollar and puts it in the tip jar?
Or how about the situation where the same drink costs a different price depending upon the bartender who serves you?
Happens to me ALL the time. I only play with a debit card so they have no excuse to take that long. Same goes with every where else. I won’t buy pizza at the mall w/o it unless i have exact change.
I don’t believe in tip jars. You run a business, you set your rates for cost of merchandise and how much you will pay your employees. Not my responsibility. If you want more money, get a better education, worker harder, get a different job, start sucking a LOT of dick or something else to work up the ladder.
Wiki defines tipping as:
A tip is a payment made to certain service sector workers beyond the advertised price. The amount of a tip is typically computed as a percent of the transaction minus taxes.[1] These payments and their size are a matter of social custom.
Tipping varies among cultures and by service industry. Though by definition a tip is never legally required, and its amount is at the discretion of the person being served, in some circumstances failing to give an adequate tip when one is expected would be considered very miserly, a violation of etiquette, or unethical.
In some other cultures or situations, giving a tip is not expected and offering one would be considered condescending or demeaning. In some circumstances (such as tipping government workers), tipping is illegal.
Question:
How is not tipping ever unethical? I don’t dole out pay checks? Its not my responsibility.
Once again, this goes back to the whole “Mr. Pink” topic that goatboy brought up in the other tip thread. You tips some people some of the time, but others you never tip? Why don’t I get a tip when I work and bust my ass? Hell, I interned 6 months straight and worked harder than anyone else where I was, and I didn’t expect a tip, even when I’d work 12 hours days.
What would happen if people said, “I don’t have to tip, so I won’t?” How would the IRS, employers and the government deal with this? Ask people to tip? Pshhh, as if that would work. Pay people fairly.
A job is a job, right? Either tip everyone or tip no one. Too much picking and choosing…[/quote]
The only place I see tipping as necessary is when food is involved.
However, people always use the argument that not tipping would result in bad service. In my experience, bad service resulted in losing your job. Therefore, if waiters were treated as everyone else, we would probably get better service.
I totally agree with your point.