This can definitely be sorted out. I suggest starting a thread laying out your nutrition and training to make full use of the resources here on the forum and help to set an example for the guys.
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Dex , where im confused is this: worldwide labs have established ranges for ft tt e2 for males. Shouldnt they be followed? If not, then why were they created?
Dude do some reading. I feel great. If you want to feel great then read this forum up and down and youāll have all the answers you need. Just go into it with the notion that what you think you know now is likely incorrect.
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Never go outside the lab ranges ever. They are infallible and were created from perfectly healthy and optimized individuals.
Donāt worry about them going down over and over.
I know im going to get a beating for this but here goes. My opinion on trt and what ive noticed lurking on forum:
Trt was designed to give those males whos bodies and or testes can not longer produce testosterone in normal amounts the chance to once again HAVE normal amounts. But what i see happen often is guys on trt aim or try to aim for levels double or triple the normal amounts. To me thats not right. Of course youll feel better with such epic levels but thats not what trt is designed for. Thats trt abuse. Trt is meant to get you back to normal healthy levels. Upper limit or even a touch elevated/past upper limit is ok too but when you are 2x or 3x the normal upper limitā¦thats a problem. Whether you feel right at 3x the normal limits is bullsh** to me. I think thats an excuse many guys use to abuse the drugs. If this were true then that means when you were producing test naturally and u were at healthy normal levels, you felt like crap then too?
/End rant
Dont take offense im not attacking you personally im just trying to make sense of all this.
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@akuma4u - From what I understand, ranges arenāt created from a fully healthy population and there are different labs that have different rangesā¦ Plus the upper end of the ranges has been decreasing a lot over time. Abraham Morgentaler did a study in 2006 of the lower and upper ranges from 25 labs (I think) and found the upper end of the TT range was 1500 in some labs. In 2019, the upper end of quest is 916 I think? Thatās a 39% drop.
13 years ago, if your TT was 1298, your in the upper part of that labs range and feeling great. Without anything changing but timeā¦ Now you are in supra levels and too highā¦ But nothing youāve done has changed. Do you have to lower the dose now to conform to the new normal?
Edit - study link. Iām just referencing the study to show some labs had top end ranges of 1500 13 years ago. There were also labs that had lower top end ranges too. This just illustrates ranges differ and shouldnāt be absolute in treatment.
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)31411-9/abstract
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@akuma4u
You arenāt going to get a beating. The thing is no one cares. Imagine after two years of this shit you finally got to the point where every aspect of your life is better than you could have ever imagined. How much would you care that someone who isnāt in that position has an opinion about it? Probably not much. I wish you the best. Do some reading and be careful about āwhat you thinkā because it tends to change.
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i agree with this ā¦. obv you can supplement these items but thereā s prob better ways . You give out lots of info but somewhat are using the above deficiencies as an excuse , everyone is vit d deficient pretty much .
again what are your stats ? im sure plenty of ppl here are willing to help , thereās no way your feeling as good as you could at even 20% bf ā¦. time to start putting in the work in the kitchen and in the gym as much as you put on these forums !!! cmon bud lets go , you can do it and youāll have plenty of support
Ranges are very relative and every person has his optimal values. Thats why hormonal optimization is more of an art, its not just filling a crappy piece of paper like most doctors think. Its about making the patient healthy and feeling happy.
If the trt dosing is right and administration frequent enough the e2 will also be on. A lot of the trt benefits come from e2, for example the cardio protection. E2 also helps you get rid of visceral body fat
dude are you even on TRT?!
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Are you asking me?
Iāve wanted to say this as well , yes heās (VONKO1988) been on here reading researching etc but last I knew has NOT started TRT . I just cant take info from someone that is just going by literature , studies , etc . No offense but your trying to lecture when your not even on , its like listening to a 400lb overweight guy whose read a bunch of dieting books and attended a nutrition seminar trying to tell you how to lose weight lol ā¦ā¦.shit aināt rite !!
Yes everyone has their optimal range. I was told here on this forum a year or two ago, that we (people on trt) should aim for normal to upper normal limits or slightly above. That made sense to me. So when i see guys with 2x or 3x elevated, it looks like overkill to me. It looks like bodybuilding type cycle numbers and not TRT.
Serious question - What about someone who started TRT when the upper end of the range was higher than it is now? Should they lower their dose to fit inside the new ānormalā?
No , because as i said before, normal to slightly above upper limit (slightly elevated) is ok. Im not talking about slight elevated numbers. Im talking about 2x 3x the upper limit. For exm. If normal limits are 40 to 85 and you come in at 250. That would be overkill versus coming in at a more reasonable number like 90 to 110 or so. These limits have been established for a reason.
Slight variations over the years and between lab companies are normal but those are variations are not huge they are small.
Id love to hear doctors opinions on this. My current doc is so strict even 1 point over and he wants me off. Hes an extreme case. Im assuming endos and urologists over the world want their guys in normal or just above normal ranges and not 3x over them.
Iām one of those few who feels fantastic at 350-400, veins start popping at 350, nearing 500 is definitely pushing my luck.
@akuma4u
You have no clue what you are talking about. Read your initial post and all of the things āyouāve heardā. They are all incorrect. Before you start espousing your opinion get yourself right. When youāre right then let others know how you got there.
Im more interested about what doctors who prescribe and oversee the trt treatment feel are optimal numbers and what they feel are not. Looking at your recent labs, you are taking enough test for the treatment of 2 men. So your opinion on this doesnt really persuade me no offense. Id love to hear professional opinions on the matter.
That seems more of a normal healthy trt result both patient and doc should aim for.
My opinion on what insulin needle to use or the one about how to inject in the delts?
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