How Do You Define Yourself?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Wrong. That’s in the Declaration of Independence.

“That means to say that you plan to conduct business as if this isn’t the case will make your actions UNconstitutional.”

Show me where a lesbian can sue her boss for firing her because of her sexual preference because it is unconstitutional:
[/quote]

So, your argument is that the Civil Rights movement was an aggressive act of imposing beliefs on you? What if your in-action towards the Civil Rights movement led to more aggressive acts against other races or women? I think that is the point others are making. Some here seem to be claiming that by forcing traditional laws to be removed that this is imposing beliefs on you…while ignoring the fact that inaction in the name of tradition was a passive-aggressive attempt at the same thing. It simply allowed you to raise your hands in the air and say, “well, I didn’t lynch anyone so my hiring practices and racist attitudes aren’t hurting anyone”. The truth is, even some of the things you DON’T do greatly affect someone else. That doesn’t make you more right. If you see a girl hanging from a cliff and you could easily save her if you tried, is it right to ignore her because you don’t like her skin tone or perfume? That removes any obligation on your part, right?

Deanosumo,

You mean cronies like the CIA - who are opposed to Bush?

More excuses. The authorization covered all kinds of issues- presumably, you read about them, like Saddam’s continuing oppression of his people and violation of UN Resolutions…

…these were cited as reasons to use force against Saddam - did Bush make up the part about Saddam breaching ceasefire and oppressing his people?

ProX,

“So, your argument is that the Civil Rights movement was an aggressive act of imposing beliefs on you?”

Geez. I am saying - and follow me closely - that there are some people who have responded to this board who have stated that the government should never impose a belief on you against your God-given free will. I raised an argument - a Devil’s advocate position - that wanted to see if these folks truly meant that freedom to be absolute, even for freedoms that are kind of nasty, like being free to hire and fire people because you hate the color of their skin. Libertarians believe in a very open freedom to contract and think that provisions like a Civil Rights Act create infringements on their liberty to, with their own private capital at risk, hire whomever they please.

Secondly, these folks are often the type that complain about attempts to ‘legislate morality’. But isn’t (again, playing Devil’s advocate) a law that says I can’t fire you because you’re gay legislated morality in that it forces, by way of law, me to behave in a way better for society morally?

These are questions I like to hear libertarians and civil libertarians address.

“It simply allowed you to raise your hands in the air and say, “well, I didn’t lynch anyone so my hiring practices and racist attitudes aren’t hurting anyone”.”

You are getting flummoxed. I don’t actually advocate that the Civil Rights movement was wrong - but as to your argument, freedom of speech lets whoever wants to be a racist be a racist. In a free society, you’re gong to have to tolerate that. But I am a not a racist, nor am I bashing the Civil Rights movement - I’m merely drumming up a hypothetical.

“The truth is, even some of the things you DON’T do greatly affect someone else.”

So, you gonna make being a racist against the law?

“That doesn’t make you more right. If you see a girl hanging from a cliff and you could easily save her if you tried, is it right to ignore her because you don’t like her skin tone or perfume? That removes any obligation on your part, right?”

We’re not arguing about the stupidity of racism, ProX - you’re preaching to the choir.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Geez. I am saying - and follow me closely - that there are some people who have responded to this board who have stated that the government should never impose a belief on you against your God-given free will. [/quote]

I understand exactly what we are arguing about. I simply went along with your “racism” example and it clearly hit home. By NOT acting against some traditional laws or actions, this also has the potential to affect others. The “conservative” stance on this board seems to be, “we don’t impose anything…it is those horrible, crazy, atheist liberals who do all of the imposing”. As it was pointed out to you, by your own example, if the topic is racism, then NOT acting against racism and believing that any action to enforce civil rights is IMPOSING, it means that you think that simply because you didn’t personally commit a hate crime, that your INaction didn’t help lead to it. That is PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE imposition of your own beliefs, whether you want to accept that or not. It means that while you may feel that you are being “forced” to not discriminate against a lesbian, if this was not enforced, it would basically be approving further biased acts against that group in society. Like I said before…it simply allows you to say, “hey, I didn’t run her over with a car because she was lesbian therefore, my biased actions in the workplace should not be at fault at all”. This COUNTRY is not here just for your well being. You are involved in a SOCIETY. That means, unless you plan to isolate yourself in a guarded community where anyone with any differences you don’t agree with is banned, to be a part of this society requires you to understand that you can’t begin a trend of opposition to unity simply because you believe this is IMPOSING beliefs on you. Your whole argument is, in effect, claiming that the civil rights movements was an aggressive act against your free will. Uh, who gives a shit? I’ll use your own argument…if you don’t like it…leave. Not getting rid of traditional views that affect others does not make you more right. It makes you blind to what others have to deal with and inaction does affect others.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Deanosumo,

You mean cronies like the CIA - who are opposed to Bush?

More excuses. The authorization covered all kinds of issues- presumably, you read about them, like Saddam’s continuing oppression of his people and violation of UN Resolutions…

…these were cited as reasons to use force against Saddam - did Bush make up the part about Saddam breaching ceasefire and oppressing his people?

[/quote]

Yes, Saddam did oppress his people, and violate UN Resolutions.
However,those reasons took a back seat by far, my friend, to the WMD issue and the fictious Al Qaeda link. Those were the PARAMOUNT reasons mooted to invade Iraq. Everybody knows that. Perhaps the WMD issue was a genuine mistake, but the Al Qaeda link was a lie.

Other countries violate UN Resolutions and oppress their people all the time, but the US doesn’t invade them. However, if those countries had oil…

your?self Pronunciation Key (yr-slf, y?r-, yr-, yr-)
pron.

  1. That one identical with you.
    1. Used reflexively as the direct or indirect object of a verb or as the object of a preposition: Did you buy yourself a gift?
    2. Used for emphasis: You yourself were certain of the facts.
    3. Used in an absolute construction: In office yourself, you helped push the bill along.
  2. Your normal or healthy condition: Are you feeling yourself again?

Thus ends my only venture into the political forum; I feel I have accomplished a lot. I bid you good day.

-FC

Wow, It looks like some of us have gotten so good at defining ourselves that we can now start defining others.

Boston Barrister- Thanks for catching on to my point and stating it so eloquently.In the adrenal rush that I fired off those questions,I was unuble to clarify it properly.

One thing I have noticed lately.Some people realy lack conceptual continuity.They think very broadly with opinions on almost everything under the sun, but with no depth.Once they make a statement the depth of their knowledge is exhausted.It is interesting to observe this because when challenged to think deeply on one subject,the person finds a way to jump to another subject, with another statement, and the cycle continues.

Dean

Differnet point of view…I expect it. That was not what I was criticizing.

Now back to Barbara Boxer. She is a clown. She rarely if ever has a grasp of the issue she so passionately tries to argue. Her “Assault Weapon” work was intensely comical and innacurate.

Condi gave it back to her, far more then she got. Boxer was way outmatched.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Boxer was way outmatched.[/quote]

Barbara Boxer is an embarassment to our system of democracy.

The mere fact that a complete idiot like her is allowed to hold elected office is a true testament to suffrage being extended to people who shouldn’t even be allowed to cross the street by themselves.

[quote]hedo wrote:

Now back to Barbara Boxer. She is a clown. She rarely if ever has a grasp of the issue she so passionately tries to argue. Her “Assault Weapon” work was intensely comical and innacurate.

Condi gave it back to her, far more then she got. Boxer was way outmatched.[/quote]

hedo,
Here’s some of Condi, kicking Boxer’s ass.
I thought you’d like to hear some of it because apparently you missed the beginning, middle and end of the exchange, or did you get the two mixed up? They ARE both women, but one of them is black and the other is white… didn’t know if you picked up on that but that’s one way to tell them apart.

How DARE she bring up the truth in an open forum where people could hear her! I’ll bet she’s French, that would explain a lot.

And this of course, a perfect example - http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=18392

I define myself politically as someone who is insulted by the sheer arrogance of this administration to bold face lie to over 50% us just to BS the other half. Give me some semblance of an open, honest government that is slightly concerned about getting along with the rest of the world and getting serious about alternative energy sources. The ties that bind this administration to the oil industry will negate any serious discussion or thought of alternative energy sources. The level of corporatism currently in our government will absolutely doom this planet.


Condi/Boxer

And I think the way we should start is by trying to set the record straight on some of the things you said going into this war. Now, since 9/11 we’ve been engaged in a just fight against terror. And I, like Senator Feingold and everyone here who was in the Senate at the time, voted to go after Osama bin Laden and to go after the Taliban, and to defeat al Qaeda. And you say they have left territory – that’s not true. Your own documents show that al Qaeda has expanded from 45 countries in '01 to more than 60 countries today.

Well, with you in the lead role, Dr. Rice, we went into Iraq. I want to read you a paragraph that best expresses my views, and ask my staff if they would hold this up – and I believe the views of millions of Californians and Americans. It was written by one of the world’s experts on terrorism, Peter Bergen, five months ago. He wrote: “What we have done in Iraq is what bin Laden could not have hoped for in his wildest dreams: We invaded an oil-rich Muslim nation in the heart of the Middle East, the very type of imperial adventure bin Laden has long predicted was the U.S.'s long-term goal in the region. We deposed the secular socialist Saddam, whom bin Laden has long despised, ignited Sunni and Shi’a fundamentalist fervor in Iraq, and have now provoked a defensive jihad that has galvanized jihad- minded Muslims around the world. It’s hard to imagine a set of policies better designed to sabotage the war on terror.” This conclusion was reiterated last Thursday by the National Intelligence Council, the CIA director’s think tank, which released a report saying that Iraq has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of professionalized terrorists.

That’s your own administration’s CIA. NIC chairman Robert Hutchings said Iraq is, quote, “a magnet for international terrorist activity.”

And this was not the case in '01. And I have great proof of it, including a State Department document that lists every country – could you hold that up? – in which al Qaeda operated prior to 9/11. And you can see the countries; no mention of Iraq. And this booklet was signed off on by the president of the United States, George W. Bush. It was put out by George Bush’s State Department, and he signed it. There was no al Qaeda activity there – no cells.

Now, the war was sold to the American people, as Chief of Staff to President Bush Andy Card said, like a “new product.” Those were his words. Remember, he said, “You don’t roll out a new product in the summer.” Now, you rolled out the idea and then you had to convince the people, as you made your case with the president.

And I personally believe – this is my personal view – that your loyalty to the mission you were given, to sell this war, overwhelmed your respect for the truth. And I don’t say it lightly, and I’m going to go into the documents that show your statements and the facts at the time.

Now, perhaps the most well-known statement you’ve made was the one about Saddam Hussein launching a nuclear weapon on America with the image of, quote, quoting you, “a mushroom cloud.” That image had to frighten every American into believing that Saddam Hussein was on the verge of annihilating them if he was not stopped. And I will be placing into the record a number of such statements you made which have not been consistent with the facts.

As the nominee for secretary of State, you must answer to the American people, and you are doing that now through this confirmation process. And I continue to stand in awe of our founders, who understood that ultimately those of us in the highest positions of our government must be held accountable to the people we serve.

So I want to show you some statements that you made regarding the nuclear threat and the ability of Saddam to attack us. Now, September 5th – let me get to the right package here. On July 30th, 2003, you were asked by PBS NewsHour’s Gwen Ifill if you continued to stand by the claims you made about Saddam’s nuclear program in the days and months leading up to the war.

In what appears to be an effort to downplay the nuclear-weapons scare tactics you used before the war, your answer was, and I quote, “It was a case that said he was trying to reconstitute. He’s trying to acquire nuclear weapons. Nobody ever said that it was going to be the next year.” So that’s what you said to the American people on television – “Nobody ever said it was going to be the next year.”

Well, that wasn’t true, because nine months before you said this to the American people, what had George Bush said, President Bush, at his speech at the Cincinnati Museum Center? “If the Iraqi regime is able to produce, buy or steal an amount of highly-enriched uranium a little larger than a single softball, it could have a nuclear weapon in less than a year.”

So the president tells the people there could be a weapon. Nine months later you said no one ever said he could have a weapon in a year, when in fact the president said it.

And here’s the real kicker. On October 10th, '04, on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace, three months ago, you were asked about CIA Director Tenet’s remark that prior to the war he had, quote, "made it clear to the White House that he thought the nuclear-weapons program was much weaker than the program to develop other WMDs. Your response was this: “The intelligence assessment was that he was reconstituting his nuclear program; that, left unchecked, he would have a nuclear weapon by the end of the year.”

So here you are, first contradicting the president and then contradicting yourself. So it’s hard to even ask you a question about this, because you are on the record basically taking two sides of an issue. And this does not serve the American people. (Hmmm? Isn’t there a word for someone like that?)

If it served your purpose to downplay the threat of nuclear weapons, you said, “No one said he’s going to have it in a year.” But then later, when you thought that perhaps you were on more solid ground with the American people because at the time the war was probably popular, or more popular, you’d say, “We thought he was going to have a weapon within a year.”

And this is – the question is, this is a pattern here of what I see from you on this issue, on the issue of the aluminum tubes, on the issue of whether al Qaeda was actually involved in Iraq, which you’ve said many times. And in my rounds – I don’t have any questions on this round, because I’m just laying this out; I do have questions on further rounds about similar contradictions. It’s very troubling.

You know, if you were rolling out a new product like a can opener, who would care about what we said? But this product is a war, and people are dead and dying, and people are now saying they’re not going to go back because of what they experienced there. And it’s very serious.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7750.htm

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Barbara Boxer is an embarassment to our system of democracy.

The mere fact that a complete idiot like her is allowed to hold elected office is a true testament to suffrage being extended to people who shouldn’t even be allowed to cross the street by themselves.
[/quote]

That means that for you democracy is good when the people elect representatives that you agree with, but if the people elect somebody you don’t like, it becomes and embrassement to our representative system?

You and all the conservatives keep reminding me I have to live with George W. Bush for 4 years because he was democratically elected. But you can’t live with the fact that Barbara Boxer not only was also democratically elected, she has a huge support and enourmous backing from the population of the San Francisco Bay Area, were she is from and that elected her.

So, she’s bad because she has the balls to actually represent who elected her?

That actually is an example of when representative democracy works as designed - when the representative represents.

Meaning, if you have a problem, it’s with the SF Bay Area, not with Barbara Boxer, who is only doing her job.

Yes. The San Francisco Bay Area’s population is overwhelmingly left-wing liberal. If you want to get rid of us, maybe you can get your idol GWB to deport us all to Canada…

[quote]rainjack wrote:
hedo wrote:
Boxer was way outmatched.

Barbara Boxer is an embarassment to our system of democracy.

The mere fact that a complete idiot like her is allowed to hold elected office is a true testament to suffrage being extended to people who shouldn’t even be allowed to cross the street by themselves.
[/quote]

Follow-up: one of the millions of Americans you just insulted read your post on the screen as I was replying to it and she asked me to send this on her behalf:

"You sir, are the complete idiot. You’re so stupid, ethnocentric and ignorant, that you can’t even see the barbarity of your comments…
As an American, you should be at least glad that you live in a country where people can express their opinions freely. You are the insult and embarassment to your people, and to everyone that had to pay with their lives to ensure this freedom some Americans so mindlessly speak of.

BTW, don’t bother replying because I won’t be reading it!"

Hspdr,

“That means that for you democracy is good when the people elect representatives that you agree with, but if the people elect somebody you don’t like, it becomes and embrassement to our representative system?”

Uh, no - I think that means that he doesn’t like Boxer. No more, no less. Just because someone is democratically elected doesn’t mean you can’t dislike them for personal reasons. I think Boxer is a harpy, regardless of her party affiliation.

“Follow-up: one of the millions of Americans you just insulted read your post on the screen…”

Please, can the drama. That’s a candidate for “Overreaction of the Year” award.

“You sir, are the complete idiot. You’re so stupid, ethnocentric…”

Ah, ‘ethnocentric’, the buzzword of the half-educated in order to sound educated. Note to your friend - if she is going to use ‘ethnocentric’ in a sentence, ask her to please use it correctly.

Rainjack, I believe, is a White male. Boxer is a White female. Rainjack isn’t attacking her with an ethnic bias, so do try and stop blathering about something that is an illusion.

“…and ignorant, that you can’t even see the barbarity of your comments…”

Barbarity? Because Rainjack said he thought Boxer was a bad politician?

“As an American, you should be at least glad that you live in a country where people can express their opinions freely.”

Nowhere did I see that Rainjack opine that democracy was for the birds. Actually, that’s the beauty of a liberal democracy - you can say you think a politician is a moron.

“You are the insult and embarassment to your people, and to everyone that had to pay with their lives to ensure this freedom some Americans so mindlessly speak of.”

Tell you what - next time you state an opinion about Bush, I’m gonna pull this card out and use it, and you’ll see how stupid it looks. Just because Bush is democratically elected doesn’t mean you can’t think he is a horrible politician - as I am sure you agree.

Welcome to America, kids. When you get out of Anthropology 101 and Intro to Political Science, come join us at the grownup’s table for a discussion.

PS - sorry, Rainjack, you can defend yourself just fine, just felt annoyed by the nonsense being spewed here and had to get in on it.

BTW, don’t bother replying because I won’t be reading it!"

ProX,

“I understand exactly what we are arguing about. I simply went along with your “racism” example and it clearly hit home.”

Huh? You’re really not getting it, and I’m going to try and explain it better.

“By NOT acting against some traditional laws or actions, this also has the potential to affect others.”

No doubt - but ‘affect’ is an awfully broad term. Lots of things I could do would ‘affect’ you, like calling you names. Doesn’t mean we should outlaw speech. But I want to stay on topic.

“As it was pointed out to you, by your own example, if the topic is racism, then NOT acting against racism and believing that any action to enforce civil rights is IMPOSING, it means that you think that simply because you didn’t personally commit a hate crime, that your INaction didn’t help lead to it.”

Ok, this is where you miss the point. My point, ultimately, was to suggest that every law imposes on someone, and sometimes it has to be that way in the name of the PUBLIC GOOD. Civil Rights laws do impose on me a duty that maybe I don’t want - hyopthetically, no really, mind you - but those impositions are made in order to improve society.

So what you have consistently failed to see is that I actually support Civil Rights laws. I am not a libertarian, and that’s primarily who I was addressing - because I wanted to know what the libertarian-minded folk who promoted absolute liberty thought about certain laws that technically restrict freedom - in my example, the freedom to contract any way you choose - to promote the public good.

“That is PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE imposition of your own beliefs, whether you want to accept that or not.”

Jibberish. Now you are arguing with yourself. Freedom of speech allows you to, in your words, ‘passively aggressively’ impose my beliefs on you at random.

“This COUNTRY is not here just for your well being. You are involved in a SOCIETY.”

Which was the point I was making to the folks that believe in ‘absolute liberty’ had you not run in and picked up the fumble and ran into the wrong end zone.

“Your whole argument is, in effect, claiming that the civil rights movements was an aggressive act against your free will.”

Christ, ProX, it most certainly isn’t - get a clue, no? Civil Rights laws most certainly restrict a freedom once enjoyed by some, but the question is - is it worth it to do so in the name of the community? I say a qualified yes; you agree with me, but your head is lodged someplace where you can’t see that. Devil’s advocate, ProX.

“Uh, who gives a shit? I’ll use your own argument…if you don’t like it…leave.”

When has that ever been my argument? I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

“Not getting rid of traditional views that affect others does not make you more right.”

If the standard is only ‘affect’, then you’re just being silly. What if I fire someone because I think they are too stupid to do the job? I’ve certainly ‘affected’ them, probably even insulted them if I told them that.

Your just drunkdriving with your arguments now. The goal in a free society is not to make sure that no one anywhere at any time ever gets their feelings hurt ever again - it’s to create a just and fair society. That involves certain inevitable trade-offs, some you aren’t comfortable with, but too bad.

hspdr, JTF,

Why, oh why, do you keep persisting on arguing your flawed points? Rainjack has shown you through his hard edge insults and thunder from down under who works in the highest levels of government and is one of the most highly educated if not the highest educated individual in the land has shown you both the errors in your faulty logic!

Why must you persist, please cease and desist now!

Elk,

Once you had some insightful commentary here - now you seem to be content to be a professional anklebiter.

Shame.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Elk,

Once you had some insightful commentary here - now you seem to be content to be a professional anklebiter.

Shame.[/quote]

Thunder, it just gets tiring hearing you shoot down anything not toeing the conservative party line with a “I am a higher authority” “who sees it from a higher plane then you do” rhetoric.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Uh, no - I think that means that he doesn’t like Boxer. No more, no less. Just because someone is democratically elected doesn’t mean you can’t dislike them for personal reasons. I think Boxer is a harpy, regardless of her party affiliation.
[/quote]

Apparentely you lost the ability to read English:

This was not an attack only on Boxer. It was an attack on the people who voted for her, that rainjack is basically saying are so stupid they “shouldn’t even be allowed to cross the street by themselves”. If your defense is saying that it wasn’t, well, you need to go back and get some English lessons.

Hspdr,

“rainjack wrote:… is a true testament to suffrage being extended to people who shouldn’t even be allowed to cross the street by themselves.”

No, I read the whole thing just fine.

I thought it humorous, not literal.

Elk,

“Thunder, it just gets tiring hearing you shoot down anything not toeing the conservative party line with a “I am a higher authority” “who sees it from a higher plane then you do” rhetoric.”

I am not a higher authority and I don’t see it from a higher plane. What I do represent is my view in a debate vigorously.

“…it just gets tiring hearing you shoot down anything not toeing the conservative party line…”

Well, Elk, debates aren’t lovefests, but I think this comment is off-target. I’ve often stated that I think America is better off with two strong parties and I respect differing points of view. If you want me to agree with everything a liberal has to say, too bad - and I defend his right to disagree as vigorously with me as I do him.