[quote]orion wrote:
To see atheism and the theory of evolution as a religion is interesting.
What are your thoughts on this?[/quote]
Hmmm…I’m thinking that should be a thread all on its own.
No?
[quote]futuredave wrote:
ZEB wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Zeb, when was the last time you studied the Torah with a Rabbi? You should try it sometime! 
futuredave,
I have studied the Christian Bible and am quite confident that it is in fact the inspired word of God.
In addition to that I am also quite confident that the Old Testament accounts are true and correct as written.
Please read my post to doogie.
And thanks for the conversation.
(Forgive the smile, but I am thinking it’s okay now because you just did one for me. Is it okay now? If not I will stop…)
No problem
As for the Old Testament… I’m just saying the people who wrote the thing – the Jews – would say that A.) it is not to be taken literally… and B.) it makes no sense without the Oral Tradition and the commentary.
[/quote]
I do understand and respect your points (and your intellect).
I simply disagree based upon what I have read and studied.
Personally I agree that these posts do get old, but they are very useful to me personally.
If one was to read my posts on these topics going back a year. They could easily see how much my opinion on things has changed. Someone will post something I disagree with it, and then I do some research. In the process of my research I sometimes find myself forced to change my opinion. The problem with most of these debates is no one is looking to learn something. They are too busy trying to prove something.
I tend to gain a new respect for the person I am dealing with, and my knowledge of things increase.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
miniross wrote:
Were you really an atheist.
Actually no, because there is no such thing as an atheist. Only agnostics. But I sure thought I was an athiest. And I definitely despised Christians.[/quote]
I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.
[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
Great topic.
Hmmmm. Bullet points, eh?
Ready! Aim! Fire! (sorry for any type-O’s, did this really fast at work)
-
Raised in Christian home
-
Asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and savior at age 9 (was baptised)
-
The Gospel was explained and I understood, that I was a sinner and Jesus was sent to earth to die for my sins and was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
-
First Church was Southern Baptist
-
As a teen, involved in Church youth
-
I always had a spiritual sense or God awareness. The God awareness could be explained by the Christian home influence too.
-
The Bible - The infallible, inerrant, Holy Inspired Word from/of God. No contradictions or errors, it is the truth, as we know it. Now that never came from studying it, just from a minister on Sunday repeatedly. He said so. It worked for me then.
-
In 1992, moved to Dallas, TX.
-
In 1992, believed I was “called”, by God to be a minister for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-
Quit job with Champs Sporting Good chain at the time I was being offered my own store to run, for the “calling”.
-
Enrolled in Bible/Seminary College in Dallas, TX.
-
Felt a compulsion to tell others of my faith - Fulfilling the “Great Commission” Matt 28, Mark 16.
-
Co-hosted an AM radio show with a fellow student dealing with people who were involved in the occult. We believed in demonic possession and performed exorcisms.
-
A ravenous studier of the Bible.
-
Became youth minister of the small church we (wife) attended.
-
Lead Outreach ministry (evangelism to the “lost”)
-
Lead Worship Services (led the music for church services)
-
During this time, a high emotions about my relationship with God.
-
In 1996, believed God wanted me to move my family back to Tennessee and start a church. That did not happen.
-
From 1994 through 1998 introduced and experience the Christian movement of renewal. God pouring out the Holy Spirit on his church. A very high octane emotional blast during that time.
-
In 1998, moved back to Dallas and hooked by up with some close friends we went to church with.
-
In 1998, we began to study about the Jewishness of Jesus’ life. He was, in fact, a Jew. What did and does that mean to me?
-
In 1999, began to study in detail the origins of Jesus’ Judaism. He is proclaimed the King of the Jews or the Jewish Messiah in Christendom. I began to study the Jewish scripture or Tanuach to see what was required or expected from the Messiah. (Side note: during this time I found out that Jesus is really derived from a pagan deities name as Zeus or Iesous. It stuck me odd that I’d been calling on the name of the supposed Savior of the world by a pagan name. “Jesus” would have a Hebrew name. Closest name is Yahshua or Yahushua. There is a verse in the Christian New Testament that states, “There is no name under heaven by which men can be saved…(i.e. Jesus)” If Christianity is calling on a pagan name, what ramifications might that have?
-
From 1999 through 2001, the more I studied to find the truth of my faith the more I was met with questions or concerns by my findings. All this was out of a love to know God and a desire to serve him to the best of my abilities.
-
During this time I discovered many god/man stories through out history. Many of which predated Christianity.
-
In 2001, began to study the Torah. The first 5 books of the Jewish scriptures. I had begun to see too many pagan influences, from Constantine?s pollination of religions into one new religion, Christianity, to counsel of Nicea’s selection of the “divine” books to be in the New Testament. The Roman Catholic Church having the New Testament in sole possession for over 400yrs. lastly, the problems with the claims the Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not meet the requirements. Period.
-
In 2001, began to follow the Torah as our guideline. I saw myself as a lost tribe of Israel or a foreigner wanting to join himself with the God of Israel. My family began to observe the biblical feasts as outlined in the Old Testament.
-
The Jewish scriptures soon fell under the same eye as the New Testament. They too, lacked authentic proof of origin.
-
In 2003, my faith left in religious rubble. God, who had been so visible thousands and thousands of years ago (according to Jewish and Christian scriptures) was and is nowhere to be seen. Instead, he has relegated himself to a book as his form of communication with the world. No burning bushes anymore. No talking donkey. No plagues. No angel visitations. Just like the Seinfeld, we are having an awkward pause for a few thousand years.
-
I studied myself right out of religion. My wife, kids, and I are nothing now. I consider myself a naturalist or humanistic. Basic cause and affect. I am open to there being a god, but he is not talking to me at the moment, so I must be on the waiting list.
-
To sum up Solomon. I was a born-again, full of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, believer in Jesus as the Son of God, sent down from Heaven to live a sinless life. At the age of 33 he died for my sins on the cross, carrying the weight of the sins of the world. Buried in the tomb and raised 3 days later (but if you actually count it its two days, but I’m majoring on the minors) conquering sin and death and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Some believed that Jesus went to Hell and back during his death, but that really didn’t matter to me one way or the other cause I just believed and “LUV’D” GeeeZus. I studied my faith, it fell apart and I came out. You could say I made the “exodus” out.
[/quote]
…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
[quote]Spork Boy wrote:
I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.[/quote]
(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)
If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.
To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.
If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[quote]hardcoreukno0359 wrote:
the apostles actually experienced, felt and saw what they believed in, they didnt just start beleiving and put there lives on the line[/quote]
Very good point!
What is it exactly that they saw that would cause them to be such strong believers that they would put their very lives on the line?
Why would Paul, who used to attack Christians suddenly become one?
Why would he suffer so many beatings imprisonment and eventual beheading when he simply could have walked away.
What would cause Peter, when he realized that death was imminent, to request that he be crucified upside down as he was not worthy to be hung on the cross in the same manner that Jesus Christ was!
Others such as James killed by the sword.
There are very few men who will give their lives for the truth.
But how many people would actually suffer harassment, beatings, imprisonment, torture and many times a horrifying death for a lie!
They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. But they did it anyway.
Why?
Jesus Christ lived, and performed miraculous signs.
And he lives today!
Read all about Jesus Christ in the New Testament Bible. And read about his eventual coming in the Old Testament.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
miniross wrote:
Were you really an atheist.
Actually no, because there is no such thing as an atheist. Only agnostics. But I sure thought I was an athiest. And I definitely despised Christians.[/quote]
Can one be an atheist without dispising Christians?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Buttered_Corn wrote:
…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
[/quote]
I responded to him in a PM.
Sometimes things happen that you cannot see, and know nothing about.
Faith my friend…faith!
[quote]JPBear wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:
I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.
(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)
If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.
To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.
If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[/quote]
Seems like a silly way to define an atheist. Shoot, why not make that argument about Zeus (or any other gods for that matter), leprechauns, and Atlantis. Do you have absolute proof there are no leprechauns? How about King Arthur?
Simply put, atheist don’t believe in a deity–any deity. You may define others as you wish, but for me, I do not believe there is a god, christian or otherwise.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Buttered_Corn wrote:
…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
I responded to him in a PM.
Sometimes things happen that you cannot see, and know nothing about.
Faith my friend…faith!
[/quote]
…whatever (-: I would love to see that post adressed in public by our clique of firm believers. Please, humor me…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
[/quote]
I have no problem responding. He, as well as people like Dan Barker, were false converts. They never truly understood their sin in light of God’s perfection, nor God’s redemption in light of their sin.
You can tell from his story that his whole Christian experience was about an emotional high. When the high wore off, he was faced with the fact that his whole Christian life had been built on sand, not the solid rock of Jesus.
In my false convert days I had many similar experiences. It was always about emotions and “what was in it for me.” I mistook my feelings for God’s leadings and spent a lot of time in the Charismatic church trying to get those feelings. (Not to knock Charismatic churches. False converts are just as drawn to conservative churches). I also had a ton of Bible knowledge from all my years in Bible studies and church services. I loved C.S. Lewis and even read stuff like “Calvin, the Origins and Development of His Religious Thought.” I could talk the talk just as well as any other Christian. I went on a mission trip and led people in the sinner’s prayer. Most importantly, I THOUGHT I WAS SAVED.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:
I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.
(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)
If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.
To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.
If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[/quote]
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
miniross wrote:
Were you really an atheist.
Actually no, because there is no such thing as an atheist. Only agnostics. But I sure thought I was an athiest. And I definitely despised Christians.[/quote]
Bollocks.
I am definately an atheist. I do not despise christians (this is not a particular defining trait of an atheist). I do despise such sweeping classification or insinuation.
[quote]JPBear wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:
I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.
(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)
If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.
To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.
If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[/quote]
You see, your point would be a contention, based on no fact. An atheist may (or may not) look at what they have told/read/research etc etc. and yet find unconvincing on weight of fact/evidence etc. etc. compared to other sources of evidence (Geological time, contributing worldwide evidence or whatever)
You are right, there are surely no such absolue statements. You may say there is god because the bible says so, well fair enoung. The bible doesnt convince me. Its teachings dont.
can you tell me that there is no uranium in your wall cavity? No you cant, but you could do investigations, find inormation, test, re test, get someone else from another similar house or trailer (you may live in one) and see what they have.
Your point is hyperbolie.
[quote]Spork Boy wrote:
Seems like a silly way to define an atheist. Shoot, why not make that argument about Zeus (or any other gods for that matter), leprechauns, and Atlantis. Do you have absolute proof there are no leprechauns? How about King Arthur?
Simply put, atheist don’t believe in a deity–any deity. You may define others as you wish, but for me, I do not believe there is a god, christian or otherwise.[/quote]
Wrong! You’ve been declared an agnostic, just as Buttered_Corn was declared "false convert.
Deal with it.
How dare you come to your own conclusions about your life.
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious. [/quote]
Read the post again. In order to make the statement “there is no gold in China” one must have all knowledge. In order to make the statement “there is gold in China,” one does not need all knowledge, they only need to have seen one piece of gold in the country.
The same works for saying their is a God. Once I have found Him, my search is over. I do not need all knowledge to know He exists, just enough knowledge.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Buttered_Corn wrote:
Great topic.
Hmmmm. Bullet points, eh?
Ready! Aim! Fire! (sorry for any type-O’s, did this really fast at work)
-
Raised in Christian home
-
Asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and savior at age 9 (was baptised)
-
The Gospel was explained and I understood, that I was a sinner and Jesus was sent to earth to die for my sins and was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
-
First Church was Southern Baptist
-
As a teen, involved in Church youth
-
I always had a spiritual sense or God awareness. The God awareness could be explained by the Christian home influence too.
-
The Bible - The infallible, inerrant, Holy Inspired Word from/of God. No contradictions or errors, it is the truth, as we know it. Now that never came from studying it, just from a minister on Sunday repeatedly. He said so. It worked for me then.
-
In 1992, moved to Dallas, TX.
-
In 1992, believed I was “called”, by God to be a minister for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
-
Quit job with Champs Sporting Good chain at the time I was being offered my own store to run, for the “calling”.
-
Enrolled in Bible/Seminary College in Dallas, TX.
-
Felt a compulsion to tell others of my faith - Fulfilling the “Great Commission” Matt 28, Mark 16.
-
Co-hosted an AM radio show with a fellow student dealing with people who were involved in the occult. We believed in demonic possession and performed exorcisms.
-
A ravenous studier of the Bible.
-
Became youth minister of the small church we (wife) attended.
-
Lead Outreach ministry (evangelism to the “lost”)
-
Lead Worship Services (led the music for church services)
-
During this time, a high emotions about my relationship with God.
-
In 1996, believed God wanted me to move my family back to Tennessee and start a church. That did not happen.
-
From 1994 through 1998 introduced and experience the Christian movement of renewal. God pouring out the Holy Spirit on his church. A very high octane emotional blast during that time.
-
In 1998, moved back to Dallas and hooked by up with some close friends we went to church with.
-
In 1998, we began to study about the Jewishness of Jesus’ life. He was, in fact, a Jew. What did and does that mean to me?
-
In 1999, began to study in detail the origins of Jesus’ Judaism. He is proclaimed the King of the Jews or the Jewish Messiah in Christendom. I began to study the Jewish scripture or Tanuach to see what was required or expected from the Messiah. (Side note: during this time I found out that Jesus is really derived from a pagan deities name as Zeus or Iesous. It stuck me odd that I’d been calling on the name of the supposed Savior of the world by a pagan name. “Jesus” would have a Hebrew name. Closest name is Yahshua or Yahushua. There is a verse in the Christian New Testament that states, “There is no name under heaven by which men can be saved…(i.e. Jesus)” If Christianity is calling on a pagan name, what ramifications might that have?
-
From 1999 through 2001, the more I studied to find the truth of my faith the more I was met with questions or concerns by my findings. All this was out of a love to know God and a desire to serve him to the best of my abilities.
-
During this time I discovered many god/man stories through out history. Many of which predated Christianity.
-
In 2001, began to study the Torah. The first 5 books of the Jewish scriptures. I had begun to see too many pagan influences, from Constantine?s pollination of religions into one new religion, Christianity, to counsel of Nicea’s selection of the “divine” books to be in the New Testament. The Roman Catholic Church having the New Testament in sole possession for over 400yrs. lastly, the problems with the claims the Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not meet the requirements. Period.
-
In 2001, began to follow the Torah as our guideline. I saw myself as a lost tribe of Israel or a foreigner wanting to join himself with the God of Israel. My family began to observe the biblical feasts as outlined in the Old Testament.
-
The Jewish scriptures soon fell under the same eye as the New Testament. They too, lacked authentic proof of origin.
-
In 2003, my faith left in religious rubble. God, who had been so visible thousands and thousands of years ago (according to Jewish and Christian scriptures) was and is nowhere to be seen. Instead, he has relegated himself to a book as his form of communication with the world. No burning bushes anymore. No talking donkey. No plagues. No angel visitations. Just like the Seinfeld, we are having an awkward pause for a few thousand years.
-
I studied myself right out of religion. My wife, kids, and I are nothing now. I consider myself a naturalist or humanistic. Basic cause and affect. I am open to there being a god, but he is not talking to me at the moment, so I must be on the waiting list.
-
To sum up Solomon. I was a born-again, full of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, believer in Jesus as the Son of God, sent down from Heaven to live a sinless life. At the age of 33 he died for my sins on the cross, carrying the weight of the sins of the world. Buried in the tomb and raised 3 days later (but if you actually count it its two days, but I’m majoring on the minors) conquering sin and death and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Some believed that Jesus went to Hell and back during his death, but that really didn’t matter to me one way or the other cause I just believed and “LUV’D” GeeeZus. I studied my faith, it fell apart and I came out. You could say I made the “exodus” out.
…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
[/quote]
Neither? I am sad to hear of stories of lost faith. It reminds me of Charles Templeton?s story. What would you take as a response to a sad story like that? From the Christian side I would say that it pains me deeply to hear about some one losing their faith. If I were not I would reply that it is sad that he waited so many years of his life, not to mention his family.
I plan to respond to him directly and not in an open forum. That does not mean that I don?t have a response. His story does not make me doubt the validity of the Bible, the deity of Jesus or that there is a God. I deeply appreciate his candor in speaking about something so personal and painful. I have no way to measure his faith or where he stands with God. That is between the two of them. If there is any portion of his post that you would like to know my stance on I will be happy to look at specifics. He is obviously a well educated man, so I doubt that I could state anything that would refute his statements.
Through the research that I have done, I have found enough evidence for me to believe. Most of the New Testament was written with in one Generation of the Death and resurrection of Jesus. The first Council of Nicea decided if Jesus was created by God or existed along with him from the beginning. The books of the New Testament had already been decided on by that time and were in use. Do the research yourself. Start with the Bible and test it using the same tests that historians use to verify any other work of literature; next look at the historical accuracy of events, locations and lineages. Then you can dig into the spiritual aspect of it. I cannot dispute his personal story and no one can dispute mine. I do not believe in blind faith, but it has to go deeper than your head.
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]ZEB wrote:
hardcoreukno0359 wrote:
the apostles actually experienced, felt and saw what they believed in, they didnt just start beleiving and put there lives on the line
Very good point!
What is it exactly that they saw that would cause them to be such strong believers that they would put their very lives on the line?
Why would Paul, who used to attack Christians suddenly become one?
Why would he suffer so many beatings imprisonment and eventual beheading when he simply could have walked away.
What would cause Peter, when he realized that death was imminent, to request that he be crucified upside down as he was not worthy to be hung on the cross in the same manner that Jesus Christ was!
Others such as James killed by the sword.
There are very few men who will give their lives for the truth.
But how many people would actually suffer harassment, beatings, imprisonment, torture and many times a horrifying death for a lie!
They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. But they did it anyway.
Why?
Jesus Christ lived, and performed miraculous signs.
And he lives today!
Read all about Jesus Christ in the New Testament Bible. And read about his eventual coming in the Old Testament.
[/quote]
I was thinking the same thing. The only thing that I would add is that most of these men saw Jesus after the resurection. to die for a lie is one thing. To die for something that you know is a lie totaly different.
Me Solomon Grundy
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.
Me Solomon Grundy