Honest Question For Non-Christians

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121


Great topic.

Hmmmm. Bullet points, eh?

Ready! Aim! Fire! (sorry for any type-O’s, did this really fast at work)

  • Raised in Christian home

  • Asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and savior at age 9 (was baptised)

  • The Gospel was explained and I understood, that I was a sinner and Jesus was sent to earth to die for my sins and was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

  • First Church was Southern Baptist

  • As a teen, involved in Church youth

  • I always had a spiritual sense or God awareness. The God awareness could be explained by the Christian home influence too.

  • The Bible - The infallible, inerrant, Holy Inspired Word from/of God. No contradictions or errors, it is the truth, as we know it. Now that never came from studying it, just from a minister on Sunday repeatedly. He said so. It worked for me then.

  • In 1992, moved to Dallas, TX.

  • In 1992, believed I was “called”, by God to be a minister for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  • Quit job with Champs Sporting Good chain at the time I was being offered my own store to run, for the “calling”.

  • Enrolled in Bible/Seminary College in Dallas, TX.

  • Felt a compulsion to tell others of my faith - Fulfilling the “Great Commission” Matt 28, Mark 16.

  • Co-hosted an AM radio show with a fellow student dealing with people who were involved in the occult. We believed in demonic possession and performed exorcisms.

  • A ravenous studier of the Bible.

  • Became youth minister of the small church we (wife) attended.

  • Lead Outreach ministry (evangelism to the “lost”)

  • Lead Worship Services (led the music for church services)

  • During this time, a high emotions about my relationship with God.

  • In 1996, believed God wanted me to move my family back to Tennessee and start a church. That did not happen.

  • From 1994 through 1998 introduced and experience the Christian movement of renewal. God pouring out the Holy Spirit on his church. A very high octane emotional blast during that time.

  • In 1998, moved back to Dallas and hooked by up with some close friends we went to church with.

  • In 1998, we began to study about the Jewishness of Jesus’ life. He was, in fact, a Jew. What did and does that mean to me?

  • In 1999, began to study in detail the origins of Jesus’ Judaism. He is proclaimed the King of the Jews or the Jewish Messiah in Christendom. I began to study the Jewish scripture or Tanuach to see what was required or expected from the Messiah. (Side note: during this time I found out that Jesus is really derived from a pagan deities name as Zeus or Iesous. It stuck me odd that I’d been calling on the name of the supposed Savior of the world by a pagan name. “Jesus” would have a Hebrew name. Closest name is Yahshua or Yahushua. There is a verse in the Christian New Testament that states, “There is no name under heaven by which men can be saved…(i.e. Jesus)” If Christianity is calling on a pagan name, what ramifications might that have?

  • From 1999 through 2001, the more I studied to find the truth of my faith the more I was met with questions or concerns by my findings. All this was out of a love to know God and a desire to serve him to the best of my abilities.

  • During this time I discovered many god/man stories through out history. Many of which predated Christianity.

  • In 2001, began to study the Torah. The first 5 books of the Jewish scriptures. I had begun to see too many pagan influences, from Constantine?s pollination of religions into one new religion, Christianity, to counsel of Nicea’s selection of the “divine” books to be in the New Testament. The Roman Catholic Church having the New Testament in sole possession for over 400yrs. lastly, the problems with the claims the Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not meet the requirements. Period.

  • In 2001, began to follow the Torah as our guideline. I saw myself as a lost tribe of Israel or a foreigner wanting to join himself with the God of Israel. My family began to observe the biblical feasts as outlined in the Old Testament.

  • The Jewish scriptures soon fell under the same eye as the New Testament. They too, lacked authentic proof of origin.

  • In 2003, my faith left in religious rubble. God, who had been so visible thousands and thousands of years ago (according to Jewish and Christian scriptures) was and is nowhere to be seen. Instead, he has relegated himself to a book as his form of communication with the world. No burning bushes anymore. No talking donkey. No plagues. No angel visitations. Just like the Seinfeld, we are having an awkward pause for a few thousand years.

  • I studied myself right out of religion. My wife, kids, and I are nothing now. I consider myself a naturalist or humanistic. Basic cause and affect. I am open to there being a god, but he is not talking to me at the moment, so I must be on the waiting list.

  • To sum up Solomon. I was a born-again, full of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, believer in Jesus as the Son of God, sent down from Heaven to live a sinless life. At the age of 33 he died for my sins on the cross, carrying the weight of the sins of the world. Buried in the tomb and raised 3 days later (but if you actually count it its two days, but I’m majoring on the minors) conquering sin and death and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Some believed that Jesus went to Hell and back during his death, but that really didn’t matter to me one way or the other cause I just believed and “LUV’D” GeeeZus. I studied my faith, it fell apart and I came out. You could say I made the “exodus” out.

122

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I really am fucking tired of this.

Can we get back to talking politics? Enough with this God bullshit. No one is going to change their viewpoint here, especially on religion…can we let this go?[/quote]

This place is virtual heaven for the religous folks. Just this day I was strolling through the streets of Liverpool here in the UK and some fucker wades into my path and asks to speak to me about god.

S’funny immediate same reaction from him towards me (or any one this forum by religous fanatics/enthusiasts/followers…delete as applicable) was I am an athiest and what he could tell me would help me. I mean for all this cunt knew I could have been a vicar.

I brushed this goon aside and walked on. Difference here is this forum is a great place for the religious types to preach its like watching fucking boxing on tv or something and someone hijacks your tv with the god channel. Normally this sort of thing gets brushed aside by those not interested in religion or at least the hardcore blind faith bit.

I think religion is a personal thing, and should be kept private if you want to do it, not sticking it in everyone’s face on of all places a fucking bodybuilding forum which lays on a politics/world issues forum. I mean no-one said it was a platform for preaching.

Jesus, I mean if I kept starting threads about computers or cars in the offtopic they would probably go down ok, but after a while, they would piss people off, which is exactly where you are coming from, right…and myself and probably everyone else who ain’t friggin nuts.

Another thing about the god squad here is they are like a bunch of fucking Apple MAC users sitting in on a train thinking they are some elite group when everyone else is a normal PC user and they are missing out with all the glory of what they are experiencing. Like I said, religion is personal, its not about being a smug twat and when you can’t think of a reply to a genuine question of your faith to come out with some one liner like ‘open you heart to Jesus he will save you’ or something.

Don’t get me wrong religion is great, but tollerance of other religions, and open mind and some humility goes a long way. Just be lucky there is an audience here, because in everyday life this force feeding of religion goes down like a turd in a jacuuzi.

All religions have my respect, I don’t judge people because they have some god who is apparently different to someone’s elses. I just worry that when they all die there will a load of people turned away from heaven for ‘supporting the wrong team’.

Amen.

123

[quote]Stigg. wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I really am fucking tired of this.

Can we get back to talking politics? Enough with this God bullshit. No one is going to change their viewpoint here, especially on religion…can we let this go?

This place is virtual heaven for the religous folks. Just this day I was strolling through the streets of Liverpool here in the UK and some fucker wades into my path and asks to speak to me about god.

S’funny immediate same reaction from him towards me (or any one this forum by religous fanatics/enthusiasts/followers…delete as applicable) was I am an athiest and what he could tell me would help me. I mean for all this cunt knew I could have been a vicar.

I brushed this goon aside and walked on. Difference here is this forum is a great place for the religious types to preach its like watching fucking boxing on tv or something and someone hijacks your tv with the god channel. Normally this sort of thing gets brushed aside by those not interested in religion or at least the hardcore blind faith bit.

I think religion is a personal thing, and should be kept private if you want to do it, not sticking it in everyone’s face on of all places a fucking bodybuilding forum which lays on a politics/world issues forum. I mean no-one said it was a platform for preaching.

Jesus, I mean if I kept starting threads about computers or cars in the offtopic they would probably go down ok, but after a while, they would piss people off, which is exactly where you are coming from, right…and myself and probably everyone else who ain’t friggin nuts.

Another thing about the god squad here is they are like a bunch of fucking Apple MAC users sitting in on a train thinking they are some elite group when everyone else is a normal PC user and they are missing out with all the glory of what they are experiencing. Like I said, religion is personal, its not about being a smug twat and when you can’t think of a reply to a genuine question of your faith to come out with some one liner like ‘open you heart to Jesus he will save you’ or something.

Don’t get me wrong religion is great, but tollerance of other religions, and open mind and some humility goes a long way. Just be lucky there is an audience here, because in everyday life this force feeding of religion goes down like a turd in a jacuuzi.

All religions have my respect, I don’t judge people because they have some god who is apparently different to someone’s elses. I just worry that when they all die there will a load of people turned away from heaven for ‘supporting the wrong team’.

Amen.

[/quote]

Stigg,

Thanks for the post. You hit on some of the reasons that I chose to do this. If I go to a Christian website chances are I am only going to get a Christian view. Here I can get a little bit of everything. I’m not saying that because people here are heathens. I’m saying that because on the internet and especially here people are willing to say what they want. It?s no secret what my religious beliefs are and I will probably close with them. I don?t want to be like the guy you met in the street and I don?t want to depend on one liners to defend my faith. I am very tolerant of other beliefs. My religious view begins with God giving free choice. That means that we are able to choose. Forcing someone to believe your way is like trying to make someone fall in love. It can?t be forced. This is something that I think most Christians forget. My purpose of this thread is to find out what people believe and why. The why is always more difficult. I watched on other threads while people bash Christianity. My guess is that we come across more arrogant and that we try to make converts. I don?t see that as much with other religions unless you count Atheists and Evolutionists (usually the same). The Christian responses were not much better. My attempt here was to ask an honest question and get honest answers. Some of the problems that I see with Christians today:

  1. Arrogant or cocky
  2. Treat spreading the Gospel like winning an argument
  3. Many don?t know why they believe what they believe
  4. Preach rather that discuss
  5. Judgmental

I?m sure there are more. In our religion we are directed to spread the news. I want to find a better and more accepted and well received way. We are taught that everyone is a sinner and falls short of the grace of God. That can be a difficult message to spread when it appears like you are judging someone. The second part most people never get to and that is that you can be forgiven and accepted by God. Any time God is brought up it is considered preaching. ?Hear we go again?? like they have heard it a thousand times.

Me Solomon Grundy

124

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
The oral tradition of the Torah is interesting. I had always thought of it as a cultural way of passing history to the next generation and not a biblical necessity. How did you come to the conclusion that Paul threw this out?

Because I grew up in the church and it was not taught to me. Was it taught to you?

Read the New Testament. It’s not mentioned specifically, but it’s one of the things that got lost when Paul went back told James and Peter that it was not necessary to follow kosher and other laws any more because he (Paul) had been snatched up into heaven and Jesus told him so. Funny how Jesus neglected to mention this to Peter and James during his ministry on earth.

As a side bar: Ask your Jewish friends at what point blood atonement for sin was no longer necessary, or what they do now.

I fired him off an email. My impression is they aren’t so caught up on the idea that we’re all worthless, dirty sinners. They recognize that man is not perfect. But they don’t have the same belief that we’re all going to burn in hell without some form of “salvation.” In fact, the law, which Paul dismisses, is the very tool a Jew uses to perfect his soul here on earth. And I don’t mean to make himself perfect. I mean, to improve himself.

It’s like working out. And it gives the Jews I know great pleasure.

As for me, according to them, I’m not a dirty, dirty sinner. I’m one of the “righteous gentiles” of the earth, as defined by God to Noah, in what is refered to as the Noahide Laws.

There is no blood sacrifice required for me. Instead, I follow these 7 laws. (copied from Wikipedia):

Do not worship false gods.
Do not murder.
Do not steal (or kidnap).
Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, bestiality, male homosexual sex acts and adultery.)
Do not “bless God” euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (given to Noah and traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.

The Talmud also states: “Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come” (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of “the righteous among the gentiles”. Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.

[/quote]

No it was not taught to me at church or at home. This is a major issue for me. We depend on ?the Church? to teach us. The doctrines are counter culture usually and deep. How can we expect that to be taught in 2 or 3 hours a week?

Me Solomon Grundy

125

[quote]Damici wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy

What is the main reason you do not believe in the prophet Mohammed, or in Islam?[/quote]

Some of the issues that I have with Islam came from research that I have done on the birth of Islam and the prophet Mohammed himself. I checked many different sources mostly historical. I did some internet research, but I ended up going back and verifying information in books by reputable historians and scholars. Islam began about 500 years after the death of Christ. I find the fact that Christ was mentioned in the corner stone of another faith interesting. I also find the similarities between Christianity and Judaism troubling. Some of the authors that I read hypothesized that in Mohammed?s travels he came across some form of Christianity and was influenced by that. Mohammed being chosen to transcribe or teach the Qur?an through the oral tradition alone is one major issue. Some was written by his followers after his death.

Me Solomon Grundy

126

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Stigg. wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I really am fucking tired of this.

Can we get back to talking politics? Enough with this God bullshit. No one is going to change their viewpoint here, especially on religion…can we let this go?

This place is virtual heaven for the religous folks. Just this day I was strolling through the streets of Liverpool here in the UK and some fucker wades into my path and asks to speak to me about god.

S’funny immediate same reaction from him towards me (or any one this forum by religous fanatics/enthusiasts/followers…delete as applicable) was I am an athiest and what he could tell me would help me. I mean for all this cunt knew I could have been a vicar.

I brushed this goon aside and walked on. Difference here is this forum is a great place for the religious types to preach its like watching fucking boxing on tv or something and someone hijacks your tv with the god channel. Normally this sort of thing gets brushed aside by those not interested in religion or at least the hardcore blind faith bit.

I think religion is a personal thing, and should be kept private if you want to do it, not sticking it in everyone’s face on of all places a fucking bodybuilding forum which lays on a politics/world issues forum. I mean no-one said it was a platform for preaching.

Jesus, I mean if I kept starting threads about computers or cars in the offtopic they would probably go down ok, but after a while, they would piss people off, which is exactly where you are coming from, right…and myself and probably everyone else who ain’t friggin nuts.

Another thing about the god squad here is they are like a bunch of fucking Apple MAC users sitting in on a train thinking they are some elite group when everyone else is a normal PC user and they are missing out with all the glory of what they are experiencing. Like I said, religion is personal, its not about being a smug twat and when you can’t think of a reply to a genuine question of your faith to come out with some one liner like ‘open you heart to Jesus he will save you’ or something.

Don’t get me wrong religion is great, but tollerance of other religions, and open mind and some humility goes a long way. Just be lucky there is an audience here, because in everyday life this force feeding of religion goes down like a turd in a jacuuzi.

All religions have my respect, I don’t judge people because they have some god who is apparently different to someone’s elses. I just worry that when they all die there will a load of people turned away from heaven for ‘supporting the wrong team’.

Amen.
[/quote]

Great, great post Stig.

It is preaching. You are all on your soapboxes. If you’re that concerned with someone’s well being, send them a PM and be done with it. Start an email club or something for your cults.

But please, please stop crowding the politics forums with all this crap. There are sites on religion, there are plenty of discussions on religion elsewhere.

I don’t mind it once in a while, but its getting tiresome. I understand you had good intentions Solomon, but isn’t that what the road to hell is paved with?

Live and let live. You guys need to take that to heart more often.

127

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

Some of the problems that I see with Christians today:

  1. Arrogant or cocky
  2. Treat spreading the Gospel like winning an argument
  3. Many don?t know why they believe what they believe
  4. Preach rather that discuss
  5. Judgmental

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

This is a series if points that hit home with most people. Seems many Christians are oblivious to these points though. I know Sikhs and Muslims who are pretty much strict in their beliefs, but never smug or ignorant of other relgions. They never start the ‘hard sell’ or pass judgement and why do they need to ?

It seems that some people need some kind of justification for what they do or they want people to agree with them.

The whole thing of born again Christianity is largely obtuse. Its logical that an intelligent person may reason one day that they believe in god and maybe the bible and Jesus and so on, although the god bit is the first step.

So why the labelling of this phenomenom ? If you decide there is a god why do you need to go round telling everyone and making a deal of it ? This is where much of the resentment comes from. Its like if someone like hardcore death metal. This might give their life some real meaning and substance, but most people are not going to agree with this or express empathy.

Playing them Bolt Thrower and Cannibal Corpse won’t change their minds. In much the same manner, coming on here and bigging up the fact you ‘found Jesus’ etc etc will just alienate most people not win you favour.

Another issue is certain religous posters making comments like if it wasn’t for the US, British people would be speaking German. That is kind of like saying, if it wasn’t for Pirelli tyres, there would be no motor car. As far as i remember, the majority of US citizens are settlers. Check the history books son. Maybe he (SteveO Ron Raygun avatar Troll) and possibly someone’s alias is an American Indian, in which case i’ll let him off.

128

To see atheism and the theory of evolution as a religion is interesting.

What are your thoughts on this?

129

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

  1. Arrogant or cocky
  2. Treat spreading the Gospel like winning an argument
  3. Many don?t know why they believe what they believe
  4. Preach rather that discuss
  5. Judgmental

[/quote]

Furthermore, before embracing Jesus, some of these people need to work on social skills, personality, tollerance, humility and understanding.

130

[quote]doogie wrote:
What drove me away was the “big picture” of Christianity more than the details. I’m not asking people to answer these these things. I’ve read the same rationalizations you have, I just don’t think they make any sense.

Why would a loving God create evil?

Even if I have free will, every choice I eventually make is merely the product of a million different factors all of which were in God’s control when he created the universe and everything in it–from my brain chemistry and genetics to every thing I’ve ever been exposed to that had any kind of influence on me.

In it’s simplest form, to me it comes down to asking “Can God say he created everything, but that he really didn’t know if Eve was going to eat that apple?” The answer is no. If I set up a bunch of dominoes in a room in which I created EVERY variable (including the physical laws that govern it–from gravity to friction to inertia), can I honestly say I didn’t know whether the last one in line was going to fall or not? Would it make sense for me to curse it when it did?

If God was going to punish me for not believing his word it was on him to provide his complete truth in a way that was clear, undeniable, and unable to be altered throughout history. If a flaming bush talks to me, I’ll listen. That doesn’t take much faith. Tell me a flaming bush talked to some guy 6000 years ago and if I don’t believe it I’m going to burn forever, then we have a problem.

If God was just he would not have provided his “truth” in a manner that has caused even the people who are willing to take the first two giant leaps of believing there is a god and Jesus was his son to end up with this many different sects:

[/quote]

I understand this better after having kids, not that I get it completely. I’m sure that God could create something that would love him and worship him automatically. I guess he didn?t want to do that. This gets into the nature of God and his character. With my children I want them to obey me not because I force them too, but because they love and trust me. I think it?s similar with God and mankind. Free choice is an all or nothing deal. Right now I?m thinking that I wish he would have just made me perfect in the first place. God controls the influences of your choices, but if he were to manipulate them to get you to give you no other choice than to worship him then that is not free choice.

I think people in general have a problem with authority regardless of whom or what it is. We don?t want to be told what to believe, how to live, or that we are wrong. Even if God gave his truth in an undeniable way we wouldn?t accept it. If we can argue over the existence of a chair in philosophy class, then we argue over any proof that I can think of.

Me Solomon Grundy

131

[quote]Stigg. wrote:

Another issue is certain religous posters making comments like if it wasn’t for the US, British people would be speaking German. That is kind of like saying, if it wasn’t for Pirelli tyres, there would be no motor car. As far as i remember, the majority of US citizens are settlers. Check the history books son. Maybe he (SteveO Ron Raygun avatar Troll) and possibly someone’s alias is an American Indian, in which case i’ll let him off.
[/quote]

Where did this come in?

Me solomon Grundy

132

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
I understand this better after having kids, not that I get it completely. I’m sure that God could create something that would love him and worship him automatically.
[/quote]

Solomon,

I am a dad also and this notion that we are here to love and worship God strikes me as absolutely childish.

My job is to raise my son to be a good man. That means that he will face adversity with strength, treat others with kindness, have integrity, be honest, etc. He will probably go through periods where he rebels against me or even thinks I’m a bad father for disciplining him. But I will love him no matter what during those periods, because I have a different perspective than he does about his attitude. I will know he’s immature and that if he could see the larger picture, he would probably think differently. But even if he didn’t, I would love him.

I did not have a son so he could “glorify my name” or “love me.” He’s not a vanity project. Yet, if I raise him well, those may well be the outcomes. Look at Tiger Woods love for his late father.

Also… you asked why someone isn’t a Christian. Well, getting away from the story of God’s “human sacrifice” for a while has given me a different perspective. BTW, to the Jews, you are worshiping a man as God, and your story of how he was tortured to death for your sins is utter paganism. In my mind, it now reads something like this… (warning: disturbing analogy below):

[i]Imagine Michael Jordan has two children – Mike Jr and Hector. Now, Mike Jr is just as good a baller as his dad, but Hector… that kid is terrible. He’s short, got a limp, wears glasses. White kids dunk on his ass. Michael loves Hector, but he’s disgusted by him too and can’t stand to be around him or let him in the house because the kid isn’t perfect like him and Mike Jr.

His solution is to have someone drive a truck over Mike Jr, as slowly and painfully as possible. Only seeing Mike Jr’s blood and guts spilled on the streets will allow him to get over his disgust and let Hector in the house.

Hector better appreciate this magnanimous gesture. If he doesn’t, there is a neighbor that Michael’s going to let take Hector into his basement and rape with a butter knife… for eternity.[/i]

133

[quote]JPBear wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Still haven’t explained this to me

http://www.answersingenesis.org/search/default.aspx?qt=dinosaurs

Go here and read to your heart’s content.

Dinos were my big hang up too when I was an atheist. Once I knew God though, it really did not bother me any more.
[/quote]

Were you really an atheist.

also, interesting that you say such foibles as the fossil record, and discovering history and geology, doesn’t bother you.

Bothers the hell ouyt of me. It could help us in the future, but then i guess the solice that god gives you makes you not give a damn about such things.

134

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Stigg. wrote:

Another issue is certain religous posters making comments like if it wasn’t for the US, British people would be speaking German. That is kind of like saying, if it wasn’t for Pirelli tyres, there would be no motor car. As far as i remember, the majority of US citizens are settlers. Check the history books son. Maybe he (SteveO Ron Raygun avatar Troll) and possibly someone’s alias is an American Indian, in which case i’ll let him off.

Where did this come in?

Me solomon Grundy

[/quote]

I’m saying one such poster who was tryna ‘preach the gospel’ on T-Nation is a raving loon.

135

[quote]ZEB wrote:
futuredave wrote:

Zeb, when was the last time you studied the Torah with a Rabbi? You should try it sometime! :wink:

futuredave,

I have studied the Christian Bible and am quite confident that it is in fact the inspired word of God.

In addition to that I am also quite confident that the Old Testament accounts are true and correct as written.

Please read my post to doogie.

And thanks for the conversation.

:wink:

(Forgive the smile, but I am thinking it’s okay now because you just did one for me. Is it okay now? If not I will stop…)
[/quote]

No problem :wink:

As for the Old Testament… I’m just saying the people who wrote the thing – the Jews – would say that A.) it is not to be taken literally… and B.) it makes no sense without the Oral Tradition and the commentary.

136

there believing in things theve never seen, muhammad was a schizo, thats it, the apostles actually experienced, felt and saw what they believed in, they didnt just start beleiving and put there lives on the line

137

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
As a side bar: Ask your Jewish friends at what point blood atonement for sin was no longer necessary, or what they do now.
[/quote]

Here’s the answer from an orthodox friend of mine:

"The answers are long and many… just a few highlights…

There was no blood atonement before the building of the mishkan (tabernacle) in the desert.

There was no blood atonement needed between the first and second
temples.

Ezra established the “offering of our lips” (i.e.) Prayer during this
period as being “better than bulls.”
The Sanheidrin (70 elders) – sanctioned by God (and acknowledged by JC) – laid down theses prayer services we have until this day.

There are many different types of offerings, attonement being just one.

It was not possible EVER to atone through offerings for INTENTIONAL
(knowingly committed) sins. that needed prayer.

[i]It has NEVER been possible to attain attonement through sacrifice for
a sin committed against another person.
only THEY could forgive you - and then only after restitution was
paid.[/i]

Also offerings required a very strict ritual proceedure of slaughter,
burning, etc. JC’s pagen torture and execution doesn’t qualify.

Oh, and poor people, who couldn’t afford bulls, could bring birds…
or just wheat."

The bold/italics above are mine. Do you see the important difference in Judaism and Christianity re: forgiveness. In Judaism you must go to the person you have harmed and seek forgiveness. In Christianity, you go to Jesus. Now, this is not saying that the person you harmed has the right to decide whether you go to heaven or not. But it’s important for the growth of your soul that you seek their forgiveness and have a little sinners prayer and it all goes away.

This has huge ramifications in real life. My step-father was a minister, who could not for the life of him get along with his wife, ex wife or 7 children. One night when my mother challenged his behavior by telling him it was not Christian, he replied, “My relationship with Jesus Christ is what matters!”

Then he would retire to the living room and study the Bible and pray, oblivious to the emotional harm he was causing to his family because he was right with the Lord.

What Paul did that was so damaging, was take away accountability to the community that is so important in ritualistic judaism. And it has had serious reprecussions. It’s not just a theological arguement.

Jeffrey Dahmer became a Christian before he was killed in prison. “The shed blood of Jesus Christ is powerful enough to wash away even my sin,” he said.

Really? Wow. Do you think his victims were Christians? Young male prostitutes? Likely not. But according to Christianity, Dahmer’s in heaven while they are burning in hell because he was able to kill them before they accepted Christ.

That doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

Here’s from a story about his “salvation.”

[i]“God forgives all sins,” said Mott (Dahmer’s spiritual advisor), who retured in 1975 after a 32-year career with the Defense Department. “God does not consider one sin greater than the other.”

Mott said she first called a Baraboo-area minister, who explained that he was moving from the area and gave her Ratcliff’s name.

Mott said Dahmer also sent her the completed Bible study lessons, which she “graded.”

“He did very well,” she said of the lessons. “He had to miss two or three (questions), out of 12 lessons.”

After returning from the April 20 meeting with Dahmer, Ratcliff said, he began working with prison officials on whether a baptistry tank could be shipped into the maximum-security prison.

When prison officials offered the whirlpool, Ratcliff said, he and Dahmer agreed.

Mott said Ratcliff phoned her after Tuesday’s ceremony.

“It was just real exciting,” she said. “It’s all to glorify God.”[/i]

Wow. That’s just horrifying to me. Especially the last part.

Something’s horribly wrong with that theology.

In fact, when asked if he ever thought the victims’ families could forgive him, Dahmer essentially said that God had forgiven him and that’s what really mattered. Which, according to Christianity is true.

138

[quote]miniross wrote:

Were you really an atheist.
[/quote]

Actually no, because there is no such thing as an atheist. Only agnostics. But I sure thought I was an athiest. And I definitely despised Christians.

139

[quote]Stigg. wrote:
I think religion is a personal thing, and should be kept private if you want to do it, not sticking it in everyone’s face[/quote]

It was never really private. I wonder where you got the idea that it should be?

Here’s where your logic fails you my friend: No one ever said that it wasn’t platform for preaching!

It really is up to two people whether you have to look at this stuff.

The first is T-Nation. The day they don’t want it on here it will go away.

The second is YOU. The day you don’t want to read about it you won’t click on the thread.

Simple huh?

How much tolerance have you displayed for those who want to talk about religion? You spent most of your post talking about how it should not be allowed.

Funny stuff!

quote]Just be lucky there is an audience here, because in everyday life this force feeding of religion goes down like a turd in a jacuuzi.[/quote]

Boy…I can’t blame you there!

That would tick me off too if someone made me read threads that I didn’t want to look at.

…Oh you mean no one is making you read this stuff?

Seems like you were judging everyone who wanted to talk about God on this web site in your last post.

Either way, I’ll leave you with this Bible verse from Matthew 7:13 & 14:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

It’s good to tolerate other peoples choices and no one is saying that you shouldn’t.

But be careful what you accept as truth!

Now if you really don’t want to read this thread anymore you won’t respond…

Talk to you soon.

:wink:

140

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It is preaching. You are all on your soapboxes. If you’re that concerned with someone’s well being, send them a PM and be done with it. Start an email club or something for your cults.

But please, please stop crowding the politics forums with all this crap. There are sites on religion, there are plenty of discussions on religion elsewhere.

I don’t mind it once in a while, but its getting tiresome. I understand you had good intentions Solomon, but isn’t that what the road to hell is paved with?

Live and let live. You guys need to take that to heart more often.[/quote]

I think that was well said Irish!

In fact, you have inspired me to begin a thread about how Christians should be kinder and gentler to those who don’t believe.

:slight_smile: