Honest Question For Non-Christians

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Buttered_Corn wrote:
Great topic.

Hmmmm. Bullet points, eh?

Ready! Aim! Fire! (sorry for any type-O’s, did this really fast at work)

  • Raised in Christian home

  • Asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and savior at age 9 (was baptised)

  • The Gospel was explained and I understood, that I was a sinner and Jesus was sent to earth to die for my sins and was raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

  • First Church was Southern Baptist

  • As a teen, involved in Church youth

  • I always had a spiritual sense or God awareness. The God awareness could be explained by the Christian home influence too.

  • The Bible - The infallible, inerrant, Holy Inspired Word from/of God. No contradictions or errors, it is the truth, as we know it. Now that never came from studying it, just from a minister on Sunday repeatedly. He said so. It worked for me then.

  • In 1992, moved to Dallas, TX.

  • In 1992, believed I was “called”, by God to be a minister for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

  • Quit job with Champs Sporting Good chain at the time I was being offered my own store to run, for the “calling”.

  • Enrolled in Bible/Seminary College in Dallas, TX.

  • Felt a compulsion to tell others of my faith - Fulfilling the “Great Commission” Matt 28, Mark 16.

  • Co-hosted an AM radio show with a fellow student dealing with people who were involved in the occult. We believed in demonic possession and performed exorcisms.

  • A ravenous studier of the Bible.

  • Became youth minister of the small church we (wife) attended.

  • Lead Outreach ministry (evangelism to the “lost”)

  • Lead Worship Services (led the music for church services)

  • During this time, a high emotions about my relationship with God.

  • In 1996, believed God wanted me to move my family back to Tennessee and start a church. That did not happen.

  • From 1994 through 1998 introduced and experience the Christian movement of renewal. God pouring out the Holy Spirit on his church. A very high octane emotional blast during that time.

  • In 1998, moved back to Dallas and hooked by up with some close friends we went to church with.

  • In 1998, we began to study about the Jewishness of Jesus’ life. He was, in fact, a Jew. What did and does that mean to me?

  • In 1999, began to study in detail the origins of Jesus’ Judaism. He is proclaimed the King of the Jews or the Jewish Messiah in Christendom. I began to study the Jewish scripture or Tanuach to see what was required or expected from the Messiah. (Side note: during this time I found out that Jesus is really derived from a pagan deities name as Zeus or Iesous. It stuck me odd that I’d been calling on the name of the supposed Savior of the world by a pagan name. “Jesus” would have a Hebrew name. Closest name is Yahshua or Yahushua. There is a verse in the Christian New Testament that states, “There is no name under heaven by which men can be saved…(i.e. Jesus)” If Christianity is calling on a pagan name, what ramifications might that have?

  • From 1999 through 2001, the more I studied to find the truth of my faith the more I was met with questions or concerns by my findings. All this was out of a love to know God and a desire to serve him to the best of my abilities.

  • During this time I discovered many god/man stories through out history. Many of which predated Christianity.

  • In 2001, began to study the Torah. The first 5 books of the Jewish scriptures. I had begun to see too many pagan influences, from Constantine?s pollination of religions into one new religion, Christianity, to counsel of Nicea’s selection of the “divine” books to be in the New Testament. The Roman Catholic Church having the New Testament in sole possession for over 400yrs. lastly, the problems with the claims the Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. He did not meet the requirements. Period.

  • In 2001, began to follow the Torah as our guideline. I saw myself as a lost tribe of Israel or a foreigner wanting to join himself with the God of Israel. My family began to observe the biblical feasts as outlined in the Old Testament.

  • The Jewish scriptures soon fell under the same eye as the New Testament. They too, lacked authentic proof of origin.

  • In 2003, my faith left in religious rubble. God, who had been so visible thousands and thousands of years ago (according to Jewish and Christian scriptures) was and is nowhere to be seen. Instead, he has relegated himself to a book as his form of communication with the world. No burning bushes anymore. No talking donkey. No plagues. No angel visitations. Just like the Seinfeld, we are having an awkward pause for a few thousand years.

  • I studied myself right out of religion. My wife, kids, and I are nothing now. I consider myself a naturalist or humanistic. Basic cause and affect. I am open to there being a god, but he is not talking to me at the moment, so I must be on the waiting list.

  • To sum up Solomon. I was a born-again, full of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, believer in Jesus as the Son of God, sent down from Heaven to live a sinless life. At the age of 33 he died for my sins on the cross, carrying the weight of the sins of the world. Buried in the tomb and raised 3 days later (but if you actually count it its two days, but I’m majoring on the minors) conquering sin and death and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. Some believed that Jesus went to Hell and back during his death, but that really didn’t matter to me one way or the other cause I just believed and “LUV’D” GeeeZus. I studied my faith, it fell apart and I came out. You could say I made the “exodus” out.

…it’s quite telling that no believer responded to this post. Minor oversight or willful ignorance?
[/quote]

What is there to say? No your wrong? the guy posted his story, and I think it would be rude if a believer did respond. He isn’t asking for a rebuttal. Obviously other people have done the same research and disagree. So who is right? Or did people just form their own opinion based off the information they found?

162

[quote]futuredave wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:
Seems like a silly way to define an atheist. Shoot, why not make that argument about Zeus (or any other gods for that matter), leprechauns, and Atlantis. Do you have absolute proof there are no leprechauns? How about King Arthur?

Simply put, atheist don’t believe in a deity–any deity. You may define others as you wish, but for me, I do not believe there is a god, christian or otherwise.

Wrong! You’ve been declared an agnostic, just as Buttered_Corn was declared "false convert.

Deal with it.

How dare you come to your own conclusions about your life.

[/quote]
I have seen the error of my ways. Thank you for showing me the way, the truth, and the light, futuredave. I owe you a beer, a package of cigars, and a hooker.

163

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
I plan to respond to him directly and not in an open forum. [/quote]

With all due respect to your original intent of the post, wanting to know why people don’t believe in your god, this response, along with Zeb’s private response, smacks of bait a switch evangelism. Now that you’ve identified a lost soul to evangelize, you’re going to pull him aside and lay virtual hands on him. Personally, I’d like to see yours and Zeb’s message to him.

And as far as buttered_corn being a false convert, I spent many years walking with him in christian brotherhood and he was no hypocrite and had a full understand of god, jesus, and the scriptures. The old “he must have never really been a christian” routine was something I believed when I was a young convert. I know how that feels JPBear, and looking at from this side of the fence, it’s really judgemental of you to say such a thing.

164

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy[/quote]

How is that religious?

We don?t believe in supernatural beings, we have no rituals, the only thing we have in common really is that we do not believe in Gods.

No leap of faith whatsoever.

165

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious.
Read the post again. In order to make the statement “there is no gold in China” one must have all knowledge. In order to make the statement “there is gold in China,” one does not need all knowledge, they only need to have seen one piece of gold in the country.

The same works for saying their is a God. Once I have found Him, my search is over. I do not need all knowledge to know He exists, just enough knowledge.
[/quote]

You don’t have even a speck of gold you could hold up and show us, you have the same emotional feelings that Atta and his pals were feeling when they shouted god is great before vaporizing themselves.

You seem to have a very rigid and perfectionist personality type that becomes very depressed when you can’t maintain total control over your surroundings, hence the medication with booze for so long.

The booze as you admitted was going to kill you and you knew it, so subconsciously you found a drug to replace it that can be positive, but with that rigidity you possess you still must turn it into a fierce battle to control your thoughts and feelings and now others.

The thought of letting go must terrify you so you create a rigid belief pattern to hold it all together.

I do hope you find peace someday without or without your religion.

D

166

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy[/quote]

There are certainly worse ways to compartmentalise it.

167

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
JPBear wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious.
Read the post again. In order to make the statement “there is no gold in China” one must have all knowledge. In order to make the statement “there is gold in China,” one does not need all knowledge, they only need to have seen one piece of gold in the country.

The same works for saying their is a God. Once I have found Him, my search is over. I do not need all knowledge to know He exists, just enough knowledge.

You don’t have even a speck of gold you could hold up and show us, you have the same emotional feelings that Atta and his pals were feeling when they shouted god is great before vaporizing themselves.

You seem to have a very rigid and perfectionist personality type that becomes very depressed when you can’t maintain total control over your surroundings, hence the medication with booze for so long.

The booze as you admitted was going to kill you and you knew it, so subconsciously you found a drug to replace it that can be positive, but with that rigidity you possess you still must turn it into a fierce battle to control your thoughts and feelings and now others.

The thought of letting go must terrify you so you create a rigid belief pattern to hold it all together.

I do hope you find peace someday without or without your religion.

D[/quote]

AA is just one big recruiting programme for the church.

A good friend of mine was on it and the it started going all religious.

He then decided that it had helped a lot, but that quotient of it was not for him, but others need that blanket, i guess.

168

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:

I would love to learn why you think there is no such thing as an atheist.

(This explanation is from Ray Comfort)

If I were to make an absolute statement such as, “there is no gold in China,” what is needed for that statement to be proven true? I need absolute or total knowledge. I need to know that there is no gold in any rock, in any river, in the ground, in any store, in any ring or in any filling in any mouth in China. If there is one speck of gold in China, then my statement is false and I have no basis for it. I need absolute knowledge before I can make an absolute statement. Conversely, for me to say, “There is gold in China,” does not require me to have all knowledge. I just need to have seen a speck of gold in the country, and the statement is then true.

To say categorically, “There is no God,” is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being that has all knowledge. Therefore none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe there is no God. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don’t know if God exists. This would make you an agnostic.
[/quote]

…and think up your own logic. This guy couldn’t.

169

[quote]orion wrote:
Give me a link to a double-blind- study concerning prayer.
[/quote]

Here is one example of a double blind study on prayer and patients in the Cardiac Care Unit:

Both groups would have had that same experience, so that doesn’t explain why the group that was anonymously prayed for had better outcomes.

Reality? The only thing you know of reality is what you taste, touch, and see after your brain has sent you that information. You have no connection to anything outside of your body in terms of information other than what your brain tells you.

So my friend, what your brain tells you IS the only reality that you or anyone has. There is no reality outside of the info your brain gives you.

So faith IS reality, because if your brain believes it that is the highest and only reality that a human can experience.

170

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
I do hope you find peace someday without or without your religion.

D[/quote]

Sometimes a banana is just a banana.

171

[quote]Dedicated wrote:

You seem to have a very rigid and perfectionist personality type that becomes very depressed when you can’t maintain total control over your surroundings, hence the medication with booze for so long.

D[/quote]

This part is quite true. I am naturally a very black or white person and a perfectionist.

That is why it was so difficult for me to surrender my life to God. The more of my life I hand over to God, the more He asks for. I don?t have any control.

Yes, I was an alcoholic. But does that have any bearing on whether or not the object of my faith is true?

172

[quote]hspder wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
You seem a little misinformed. I have posted this before, and will post sources when I get time, but the effect that spirituality has on people has been scientifically quantified as real. For example, there have been a number of studies looking at prayer and its effects on healing. These studies had a group of people pray (yes to God) for another person to recover. And yes, they compared the prayed for and non-prayed for groups and the prayed for group had much better outcomes. Now the proof of God lies in the fact that the people who were in the prayed for group had no idea they were being prayed for. So there is no way their better outcomes could have come from their own mind (they refer to this as the placebo effect).

So science has verified the existence of some spiritual force, entity, etc that can help heal people who do not even know they are being prayed for. However, science cannot explain this or why it happens.

So while I agree that there have been and are crazy people who use religion as their motivating factor to do bad things, that has no connection to the spiritual force or God.

I am aware of those studies; they have been refuted by other, more recent, studies, who basically show that there is little to no correlation:

In either case, all studies showed at least the denomination to have no effect, i.e., Muslims or Buddhists praying had the same effect as Christians. If one is to assume the results were the work of God, that immediately nullifies the principle that one faith is true while the others don’t, and refutes the Bible as being THE TRUTH – since God would then not care if you are a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist in order to answer your prayers.

So, had that study not been disproved, it would support Zap’s view – that there is a non-denominational God – rather than the Christian view – that only those who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are “right”.

With the more recent study showing that we don’t really know if it does help or not (with odds pointing at that it doesn’t), the agnostic view is, as usual, the safest bet… :slight_smile:

Some good reads are:

http://www.sram.org/0802/faith-healing.html

and

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/wirthstudy.html[/quote]

And then there are more studies that refute those studies. This just proves the fact that the scientific method is very prone to the bias of the researchers. Which also reflects on anything you believe in relation to science like evolution, etc…

173

[quote]futuredave wrote:
hspder wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
So science has verified the existence of some spiritual force, entity, etc that can help heal people who do not even know they are being prayed for. However, science cannot explain this or why it happens.

I am aware of those studies; they have been refuted by other, more recent, studies, who basically show that there is little to no correlation:

Actually, the most recent large scale study shows that prayer makes things worse:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/14230665.htm
[/quote]

You are too funny! If prayer makes things worse then that proves it does have an effect. It proves that prayer is not some made up thing, but it has an effect. So if it has a positive or negative effect, both prove that it is reality.

174

[quote]miniross wrote:
…and think up your own logic. This guy couldn’t.[/quote]

First you say the logic works, but it is a hyperbolie (sic), now it is illogical?

Please tell me which it is and explain.

175

[quote]miniross wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
JPBear wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious.
Read the post again. In order to make the statement “there is no gold in China” one must have all knowledge. In order to make the statement “there is gold in China,” one does not need all knowledge, they only need to have seen one piece of gold in the country.

The same works for saying their is a God. Once I have found Him, my search is over. I do not need all knowledge to know He exists, just enough knowledge.

You don’t have even a speck of gold you could hold up and show us, you have the same emotional feelings that Atta and his pals were feeling when they shouted god is great before vaporizing themselves.

You seem to have a very rigid and perfectionist personality type that becomes very depressed when you can’t maintain total control over your surroundings, hence the medication with booze for so long.

The booze as you admitted was going to kill you and you knew it, so subconsciously you found a drug to replace it that can be positive, but with that rigidity you possess you still must turn it into a fierce battle to control your thoughts and feelings and now others.

The thought of letting go must terrify you so you create a rigid belief pattern to hold it all together.

I do hope you find peace someday without or without your religion.

D

AA is just one big recruiting programme for the church.

A good friend of mine was on it and the it started going all religious.

He then decided that it had helped a lot, but that quotient of it was not for him, but others need that blanket, i guess.[/quote]

Dude, you have no clue. AA is not religious, but finding and believing in a higher power (whatever higher power that works for you) is, and has always been, part of the AA 12 step program.

176

I am sorry that my post to butterd_corn came across as rude. I am just as concerned for his soul as I am for anyone else’s. I just wanted to answer to the idea that he had been a Christian and found it to be false.

I believe in the perseverance (or better put - preservation) of the saints.

Jesus said:

“All that the Father give Me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should loose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day.” - John 6: 37-39

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” - John 10: 27-29

I have a ton more scriptures to support this doctrine as well as scriptures dealing with false converts if any one is interested.

177

[quote]JPBear wrote:
miniross wrote:
…and think up your own logic. This guy couldn’t.

First you say the logic works, but it is a hyperbolie (sic), now it is illogical?

Please tell me which it is and explain. [/quote]

OK, i never said that “his” logic worked, i said it did not, and i was using Hyperbolae in my example.

This is “english”, dont you know.

178

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
miniross wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
JPBear wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
You are a silly one. If you insist in believing in god, what you must say is, "having the limited knowledge I have at present combined with a need for external influence or control of my thinking, I believe there is a god. Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part you don’t know god doesn’t exist. This would make you superstitious.
Read the post again. In order to make the statement “there is no gold in China” one must have all knowledge. In order to make the statement “there is gold in China,” one does not need all knowledge, they only need to have seen one piece of gold in the country.

The same works for saying their is a God. Once I have found Him, my search is over. I do not need all knowledge to know He exists, just enough knowledge.

You don’t have even a speck of gold you could hold up and show us, you have the same emotional feelings that Atta and his pals were feeling when they shouted god is great before vaporizing themselves.

You seem to have a very rigid and perfectionist personality type that becomes very depressed when you can’t maintain total control over your surroundings, hence the medication with booze for so long.

The booze as you admitted was going to kill you and you knew it, so subconsciously you found a drug to replace it that can be positive, but with that rigidity you possess you still must turn it into a fierce battle to control your thoughts and feelings and now others.

The thought of letting go must terrify you so you create a rigid belief pattern to hold it all together.

I do hope you find peace someday without or without your religion.

D

AA is just one big recruiting programme for the church.

A good friend of mine was on it and the it started going all religious.

He then decided that it had helped a lot, but that quotient of it was not for him, but others need that blanket, i guess.

Dude, you have no clue. AA is not religious, but finding and believing in a higher power (whatever higher power that works for you) is, and has always been, part of the AA 12 step program.
[/quote]

Fair dos, but this need to have a higher power is a matter of detail. Why the hell do you need a higher power. Is it because you are so arse weak that your own resolve just dont cut it?

Also, a small clue, but i was passing on some aquired information.

Ta for putting me right.

179

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
futuredave wrote:
hspder wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
So science has verified the existence of some spiritual force, entity, etc that can help heal people who do not even know they are being prayed for. However, science cannot explain this or why it happens.

I am aware of those studies; they have been refuted by other, more recent, studies, who basically show that there is little to no correlation:

Actually, the most recent large scale study shows that prayer makes things worse:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/14230665.htm

You are too funny! If prayer makes things worse then that proves it does have an effect. It proves that prayer is not some made up thing, but it has an effect. So if it has a positive or negative effect, both prove that it is reality.
[/quote]

Correlative studies are weak. these studies are weak. Leave them alone.

180

So Alcoholics Anonymous, which requires one to have a belief in a god, is not religious…but atheism is?

Do you people know english? Please define the word religion…because as it has been thrown around in this thread just about anything qualifies as a religion or as religious (except of course, somehow, having to believe in a god…weird).