Honest Question For Non-Christians

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
343

[quote]philph wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
philph wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
If I can ask – why does being a Jew (in your case) prevent you from believing? If Jesus is the Messiah, should’t Jewish people believe on Him?

Ok, that’s actually two separate questions. As a Jew, there are really no doctrines that cannot be questioned and re-evaluated. The principle of something “preventing” a belief is not consistent with the way Jewish thought has developed over time.

As for your other question, you ask “if Jesus were the Messiah, should’t Jewish people believe on Him?” Well, here in Britain we have a saying: “if my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a trolley.” To put it less flipantly, we don’t actually believe that Jesus was the Messiah. In fact, many Jews don’t believe in the literal idea of a Messiah as a specific supernatural person (whether historical or some time in the future).

Some would say that the important lesson is that human history follows a pattern of development with certain goals, and even if perfection is not attainable in our lifetimes (or maybe never, in fact), the important thing is to contribute, in our small, personal ways, to our fellow-man’s condition.[/quote]

Thank you for your thoughtful answer.

I do know that the Jewish people, as a whole, just don’t believe, outright, that Jesus could have been the Messiah – sort of the “knee jerk” reaction that I had when people would talk to me about Jesus before I came to faith.

The question that I wish to ask you to follow up, if I can, is this. Have YOU investigated Jesus’ claim to be the Messiah by looking at the references for the Messiah in the Tenach? Have you compared them to the claims of the N.T. where we meet the historic Jesus?

I think that it is reasonable that, if we hold a certain set of beliefs, we should hold them becuase WE hold them, and not just “following the crowd.”

Thanks again, and I will be interested in your reply.

344

[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
Buttered_Corn wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
philph wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? . . .I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian.

I’m a Jew. I have enough worries already without getting Jesus in my life.

If I can ask – why does being a Jew (in your case) prevent you from believing? If Jesus is the Messiah, should’t Jewish people believe on Him?

steveo5801,

This is a perfect segway to discuss the requirements for being the Messiah (the Moshiach). I am not Jewish, but I have studied and fellowshiped with many Yehudites (Jewish) friends. They want the Messiah, they look for the Messiah. Jewish people who know the Torah and Tanakh (Old Testament) do not believe “Jesus” meets the requirements laid out in the OT.

I’ll put together a few requirements to start with. Give me a few minutes. This damn job gets in the way. :slight_smile:

Requirements for the Jewish Messiah

(Side note: In many O.T. passages, there is reference to “a Son” or “the Son”. Christianity holds that this refers to Jesus. Jewish teaching holds that Israel is the “Son”. For this discussion, try to see the two camps perspectives. Christians, for the most part, believe the NT is the inspired, fulfilled word of God - completing the OT. For them to read the NT and go back through the OT and find “references” to Jesus is a easier task, then a Jewish person reading the Tenakh (OT) and going forward and seeing Jesus as their Messiah. They have thousands and thousands of years of studying the OT long before Christianity was on the scene. That said, their understanding is crucial in understanding the requirements for the Messiah.) Instead of listing all of them maybe we could start with a few.

Messianic requirements for the OT (just a few):

(1) He must be Jewish (see Deut. 17:15; Numb. 24:17);
(2) He must be descended from Judah (Gen. 49:10) and Solomon/David (numerous places, but see I Chron 22:9-10);
(3) With the coming of the Messiah will be the physical ingathering of Judah from the four corners of the earth (Isa. 11:12, 27:12-13);
(4) Also with coming of the Messiah will be the reestablishment of the Holy Temple (Micah 4:1);
(5) In addition the Messianic age will be one of world-wide peace (Isa. 2:4, 11:6, Micah 4:3); and, finally,
(6) In the Messianic age the entire world will believe in G-d (Isa. 11:9, 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9).

This will get us started. I look forward to the discussions.[/quote]

Thanks. Unfortunately, this weekend is a bit crazy. Therefore, in order to give a thoughful response to your excellent references, I will have to wait a couple of days to sit here and study these. I do look forward to this discussion and will get back to you shortly.

Actually, this is great considering my responses to a Jewish poster about investigating the claims of Jesus by looking at Messianic passages in the O.T.

So thank you for getting us started!

345

[quote]Ken Kaniff wrote:
Hm, id just like to know why the usa is the only civilized country where fewer than like 99,99% percent of the people “believe” in evolution. Why is that? I just dont get it. Canada, all of europe, basically the entire world besides maybe the arab countrys. No other christian country has this debate.

What are the reasons for that?[/quote]

Good question. The only thing I can think of is that we were founded by Christians who fled Europe in order to freely practice their faith. As such, Christianity and its principles are rooted in the American fabric (although it is rapidly fading) and thus we haven’t swallowed Darwin’s [false] bill of goods.

346

Why I don’t belive in Christianity/Religion

1 - The idea that a bunch of guys got together collaborated on a book tha is basically a bunch of un-related texts brought together to form “the definitive text” is just plane wacky

2 - Have you read the bible?

3 - Science has gone a LONG way to prove that there are ofrces at work in the universe far and above our own existance why would GOD favor us over the magnitude that is the universe

4 - The very basis of an organised church where an all seeing all knowing god has to be worshipped in “his house” is just plane self contradictory

5 - Christianity draws way too many parrallels with other older belif systems to be the true one

6 - Gods where originally brought about to give primitive man a grasp on what her could not grasp, As we became more sophisticated the need to which our gods catered cahnged also and thus we have a slew of diffrent religeions

7 - There may be something out there hell I’m all for that the universe is too big and complex to just be a Mishap,

But the notion of an organised god who sent us a text and a son to help us belive in him is to me just too big a nonsense to belive

347

MarcKeys:

Have you read the Bible?

348

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Spork Boy wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
philph wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? . . .I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian.

I’m a Jew. I have enough worries already without getting Jesus in my life.

If I can ask – why does being a Jew (in your case) prevent you from believing? If Jesus is the Messiah, should’t Jewish people believe on Him?

You mean other than Jesus not meeting the Jewish requirments of messiahship?

Which of the requirements did Jesus not meet? I submit that He met all of those that were prophesied to come and will fulfil those yet still future.

Therefore, the ball is in your court to show which requirements – from Tenach (Hebrew Bible) that Jesus did not meet.

[/quote]
Buttered_Corn pretty much listed the Jewish requirements for the messiah. I know christianity has several hundred prophesies that jesus supposedly fulfilled. The Jews, however, have about eight requirements a person needs to meet. Nothing divine. No virgin birth. No death and resurrection. Just a leader from the house of David and Solomon who unites the people of Israel, rebuilds the temple, and rules according the laws set forth by God in the Torah. Again, buttered_corn listed them better than me.

349

[quote]Buttered_Corn wrote:
Messianic requirements for the OT (just a few):

(1) He must be Jewish (see Deut. 17:15; Numb. 24:17);
[/quote]
Well we know he met this one.

(2) He must be descended from Judah (Gen. 49:10) and Solomon/David (numerous places, but see I Chron 22:9-10);
[/quote]
Do you really think I Chron 22:9 is prophetic?

If that is the case then what how is the rest of the chapter to be seen? Assuming we are keeping them in some sort of context.

The temple was established already during Jesus time, but the jews of his day were still looking for a Messiah to come at that day and time. So how does that fit with the Jewish interpretation?

[quote]
(5) In addition the Messianic age will be one of world-wide peace (Isa. 2:4, 11:6, Micah 4:3);

and, finally,
(6) In the Messianic age the entire world will believe in G-d (Isa. 11:9, 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9).

This will get us started. I look forward to the discussions.[/quote]

The only problem one would have with that idea is that Jews don’t believe in evangelizing, and many accept the idea that many paths lead to God. So how would a messiah establish those?

forgive me rabbinical interpretations aren’t my strong suite just yet. I know there are tons and tons of rabbinical writings, but I am still a novice in that field.

350

[quote]MarcKeys wrote:
Why I don’t belive in Christianity/Religion[/quote]

MarcKeys,

I would like to comment, point-by-point, and ask you to think about my responses and investigage these yourself:[quote]

1 - The idea that a bunch of guys got together collaborated on a book tha is basically a bunch of un-related texts brought together to form “the definitive text” is just plane wacky[/quote]

The Bible was written by over 40 separate human authors over a 1,600 year period of time. However, it has amazing unity in content and thought. Think about it. When several people see something happen and you ask them not to collaborate, but write about what they saw, you would get several very different sets of writings – much of which wouldn’t agree at all. Not so with God’s Word, because, ultimately, God wrote it THROUGH these various men. Hey, He’s God – He created the universe – Is there anything too hard for Him?[quote]

2 - Have you read the bible?[/quote]

Yes, many times over and I read it still each and every day! It is a blessing to my life to read and study it.[quote]

3 - Science has gone a LONG way to prove that there are ofrces at work in the universe far and above our own existance why would GOD favor us over the magnitude that is the universe[/quote]

Why not?[quote]

4 - The very basis of an organised church where an all seeing all knowing god has to be worshipped in “his house” is just plane self contradictory[/quote]

Actually, according to the Bible – “God’s House” is the believer and not the church building. The “church” is the people – true believers WANT TO GET TOGETHER to worship God. (see Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 10:25-26)[quote]

5 - Christianity draws way too many parrallels with other older belif systems to be the true one[/quote]

Huh? Christianity is the FULFILLMENT of Biblical Judaism. Christ (Messiah) is the promised One who would come to sacrifice Himself for us (see Isaiah, chapter 53) and will come again to judge the world (Zechariah 14:4)[quote]

6 - Gods where originally brought about to give primitive man a grasp on what her could not grasp, As we became more sophisticated the need to which our gods catered cahnged also and thus we have a slew of diffrent religeions[/quote]

So man “invents” a multitude of “gods,” and therefore the True God doesn’t exist? What kind of reasoning is this? If God exists, then the fact that man might invent many gods of his own imagination, doesn’t diminish the fact that God still exists.[quote]

7 - There may be something out there hell I’m all for that the universe is too big and complex to just be a Mishap,[/quote]

Of course it is! This all didn’t “pop out” or (go “bang”) and this is all created. How could the human brain be an accident of mutations? A complex Creation proves de facto a wise and intelligent Creator. [quote]

But the notion of an organised god who sent us a text and a son to help us belive in him is to me just too big a nonsense to belive [/quote]

Really? Why? If God created everything, why couldn’t he do this also?

What is more difficult? Creating the Universe or causing a book to be written and PRESERVED…?

Also, the fact that the Jewish people exist at all today, is another proof that God exists and He is True. With all of the attempts to wipe us off the map, Jews are stronger than ever.

Did you know that in Jeremiah 31:31ff, God says that He will preserve the Jewish people as a people forever.

And He did!

351

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
MarcKeys wrote:
Why I don’t belive in Christianity/Religion

MarcKeys,

I would like to comment, point-by-point, and ask you to think about my responses and investigage these yourself:

1 - The idea that a bunch of guys got together collaborated on a book tha is basically a bunch of un-related texts brought together to form “the definitive text” is just plane wacky

The Bible was written by over 40 separate human authors over a 1,600 year period of time. However, it has amazing unity in content and thought. Think about it. When several people see something happen and you ask them not to collaborate, but write about what they saw, you would get several very different sets of writings – much of which wouldn’t agree at all. Not so with God’s Word, because, ultimately, God wrote it THROUGH these various men. Hey, He’s God – He created the universe – Is there anything too hard for Him?

2 - Have you read the bible?

Yes, many times over and I read it still each and every day! It is a blessing to my life to read and study it.

3 - Science has gone a LONG way to prove that there are ofrces at work in the universe far and above our own existance why would GOD favor us over the magnitude that is the universe

Why not?

4 - The very basis of an organised church where an all seeing all knowing god has to be worshipped in “his house” is just plane self contradictory

Actually, according to the Bible – “God’s House” is the believer and not the church building. The “church” is the people – true believers WANT TO GET TOGETHER to worship God. (see Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 10:25-26)

5 - Christianity draws way too many parrallels with other older belif systems to be the true one

Huh? Christianity is the FULFILLMENT of Biblical Judaism. Christ (Messiah) is the promised One who would come to sacrifice Himself for us (see Isaiah, chapter 53) and will come again to judge the world (Zechariah 14:4)

6 - Gods where originally brought about to give primitive man a grasp on what her could not grasp, As we became more sophisticated the need to which our gods catered cahnged also and thus we have a slew of diffrent religeions

So man “invents” a multitude of “gods,” and therefore the True God doesn’t exist? What kind of reasoning is this? If God exists, then the fact that man might invent many gods of his own imagination, doesn’t diminish the fact that God still exists.

7 - There may be something out there hell I’m all for that the universe is too big and complex to just be a Mishap,

Of course it is! This all didn’t “pop out” or (go “bang”) and this is all created. How could the human brain be an accident of mutations? A complex Creation proves de facto a wise and intelligent Creator.

But the notion of an organised god who sent us a text and a son to help us belive in him is to me just too big a nonsense to belive

Really? Why? If God created everything, why couldn’t he do this also?

What is more difficult? Creating the Universe or causing a book to be written and PRESERVED…?

Also, the fact that the Jewish people exist at all today, is another proof that God exists and He is True. With all of the attempts to wipe us off the map, Jews are stronger than ever.

Did you know that in Jeremiah 31:31ff, God says that He will preserve the Jewish people as a people forever.

And He did!

[/quote]

I’m not going to get dragged into a long winded thelogical debate with ANY christian, fact is they can’t be reasoned with. No matter what argument I bring to the table you will just revert back to your unfondering belive and try to talk me round to your way of thinking.

The simple fact is that “God” in the christian sense is just a bridle to control the masses, Religeion has been used throughout mans history to control populations why is Christianity any diffrent? It is’nt.

The fact that jew are here thats proof that god exists? Give me a break! Muslems are here, Budists are here,

Shit if I say there is a kettle orbitting around jupiter you can’t prooe me wrong even tho I most certianly am.

Point in case Chrisitanity is pretty much a blind faith like any other religerion and it does’nt hold water under any kind of scrutiny.

Oh and if you try and bring any of that creationism nonsense into this conversation I will track you IP and beat you to death with a hard copy of Darwing origin of the species.

352

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MarcKeys:

Have you read the Bible?

[/quote]

I’ve tryed to I really have, I’ve read parts of it and I must say its not a compelling read

353

[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Still haven’t explained this to me

The only thing that looks like a problem regarding the dinosaurs is that Genesis says the world was created in six days. Assume that “day” could be a metaphor or alternate word meaning “era” rather than “24-hour period” and the dinosaur problem is solved.[/quote]

Please tell me you are taking the piss!?

This has to be the dumbest response I have ever read to any argument

354

[quote]MarcKeys wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MarcKeys:

Have you read the Bible?

I’ve tryed to I really have, I’ve read parts of it and I must say its not a compelling read
[/quote]

I think that might just be the genesis of the problem. You are critiquing something that you know little about.

Sort of like seeing just a couple of parts of a movie and then dismissing it out of hand. Or attacking a written training program without even reading it through.

Maybe you have also been listening to other folks who attack the Bible (and Christ) who have not read it either!

Take some time and read the book.

Begin in Proverbs as that moves along quickly. After Proverbs go directly to Matthew.

If you simply read the New Testament beginning in Matthew, you will get a reasonably good understanding of Jesus Christ and his mission on earth.

Take just a few minutes each day and read a page or two. Before you know it you will have a far better understanding of the Bible. And you won’t have to rely on anyone else’s opinion as you will have established your own.

Either way, take some time and take a look.

Good Luck,

Zeb

355

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
NealRaymond2 wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Still haven’t explained this to me

The only thing that looks like a problem regarding the dinosaurs is that Genesis says the world was created in six days. Assume that “day” could be a metaphor or alternate word meaning “era” rather than “24-hour period” and the dinosaur problem is solved.

Please tell me you are taking the piss!?

This has to be the dumbest response I have ever read to any argument
[/quote]

What do you want explained?

As for his comment he is talking about the OEC interpretation of Genesis.

If you really want an answer than you will need to know the following terms, YEC, OEC, and TE.

Shoot you could look them up and we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.

356

[quote]haney wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
NealRaymond2 wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Still haven’t explained this to me

The only thing that looks like a problem regarding the dinosaurs is that Genesis says the world was created in six days. Assume that “day” could be a metaphor or alternate word meaning “era” rather than “24-hour period” and the dinosaur problem is solved.

Please tell me you are taking the piss!?

This has to be the dumbest response I have ever read to any argument

What do you want explained?

As for his comment he is talking about the OEC interpretation of Genesis.

If you really want an answer than you will need to know the following terms, YEC, OEC, and TE.

Shoot you could look them up and we wouldn’t even have to talk about it.[/quote]

Listen man, even if you want to take the piss and say that 6 days could be interpreted to mean 6 billion years, there is still no mention of dinosaurs in the bible, fuck me man these were the biggest mammals to ever roam this planet, and they did so for a few million years, you would think they might get a little mention

357

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Listen man, even if you want to take the piss and say that 6 days could be interpreted to mean 6 billion years, there is still no mention of dinosaurs in the bible, fuck me man these were the biggest mammals to ever roam this planet, and they did so for a few million years, you would think they might get a little mention

[/quote]

Well that really depends on your view of G1, if you held an OEC view, or a TE view then you have to ask why would it be mentioned? The dino’s would have been long gone by the time man came on the scene.

On top of that the entire theme of the Bible is God’s redemption of man. So why is it required that dino’s be included in it?

358

[quote]haney wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Listen man, even if you want to take the piss and say that 6 days could be interpreted to mean 6 billion years, there is still no mention of dinosaurs in the bible, fuck me man these were the biggest mammals to ever roam this planet, and they did so for a few million years, you would think they might get a little mention

Well that really depends on your view of G1, if you held an OEC view, or a TE view then you have to ask why would it be mentioned? The dino’s would have been long gone by the time man came on the scene.

On top of that the entire theme of the Bible is God’s redemption of man. So why is it required that dino’s be included in it?
[/quote]

The reason that Dino’s are not mentioned in the bible is because when the fiction of the bible was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of stoned hippies, they had no knowledge of dino’s, otherwise they would have certainly added them into their story.

359

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
The reason that Dino’s are not mentioned in the bible is because when the fiction of the bible was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of stoned hippies, they had no knowledge of dino’s, otherwise they would have certainly added them into their story.

[/quote]

Prove it. Otherwise admit it is your opinion and be done with it.

360

[quote]haney wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
The reason that Dino’s are not mentioned in the bible is because when the fiction of the bible was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of stoned hippies, they had no knowledge of dino’s, otherwise they would have certainly added them into their story.

Prove it. Otherwise admit it is your opinion and be done with it. [/quote]

It is my opinion and I am done with it, but if I did want to try and prove it (which I cannot) I would state that as no record exsists of anyone being aware of the exsistance of dino’s pre 18th century, it is only fair to conclude that at the time the bible was written no-one was aware of the exsitance of Dino’s.

361

A few thought after reading a few recent responses.

  1. Dinosaurs are not mammals. Wow.

  2. It seems silly that the texts of the Bible would mention dinosaurs. The people of the era had no knowledge of dinosaurs. They were men writing within the context of their own knowledge.

  3. Even assuming the authors of the text were Divinely inspired, it is implausible to think their scrivening could be seen as a scientific canon of explanation, for the reason mentioned in #2. The men who wrote the Bible - even if Divinely inspired - were still men and limited as to what they could explain. There is no way for men of that age - or now, for that matter - to be able to comprehend the order and arrangement of God’s universe.

  4. To suggest the Bible is an unerring scientific explanation is also a bald insult to the grandeur of God - the men who wrote the texts of the Bible could not have possibly understood the scientific nature of the world - even ourselves, with the advantage of several thousands of years of learning, have barely scratched the surface. For thousands of years, good Christians got the science wrong on the shape and nature of the earth in space - and I suspect God was not angry with them for having limits as to their knowledge. And so with us.

  5. The men of the Biblical era told the best story they could with the knowledge they had. Devout Christians of the Biblical era likely thought the earth was flat. Devout Christians nowadays know the earth is round and orbits the sun. Both are devout Christians - one simply has the advantage of more knowledge. Were a Christian to write the Bible today, he would tell the story to the limits of his knowledge, as his predecessors did.

  6. Anyone expecting the Bible to be a science book has completely missed the point. Anyone who think that since science - like evolutionary theory - ‘disproves’ the ‘scientific’ side of the Bible is also missing the point. Science and religion talk past each other, for the goals are not the same. The shrieking idiots on either side of the Creationism and Evolution debate - untempered by the facts that the Bible is not a science book and evolution is not a panacea to all theological inquisitions - are giving the rest of us an enormous headache.

362

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
haney wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
The reason that Dino’s are not mentioned in the bible is because when the fiction of the bible was written 2000 years ago by a bunch of stoned hippies, they had no knowledge of dino’s, otherwise they would have certainly added them into their story.

Prove it. Otherwise admit it is your opinion and be done with it.

It is my opinion and I am done with it, but if I did want to try and prove it (which I cannot) I would state that as no record exsists of anyone being aware of the exsistance of dino’s pre 18th century, it is only fair to conclude that at the time the bible was written no-one was aware of the exsitance of Dino’s.

[/quote]

Thanks. TE would believe that dino’s and mankind evolved, but God was the driving agent behind their evolution.