Honest Question For Non-Christians

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
263

[quote]doogie wrote:

It all boils down to the golden rule. You don’t need religion to tell you to be decent to people, but all religions do it anyway.

Christianity

All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1[/quote]

I agree with this concept. Life is far better when we are “decent” to each other. And the Bible does speak of that.

However, what is the point of God sending his one and only son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins if all we need is a good philosophy of life? Such as, being “decent” to each other.

You quote a verse from Matthew. Yet, how can you have any confidence in a book which you attack regularly? Either you accept the fact that Jesus Christ is the son of God and did what he said he was going to do or you reject it!

And if you reject it,

why would you pick and choose verses from a book that you say lies? And from a God that you mock?

Is that sound logic?

These are just a few verses of importance that you are leaving out:

Hebrews 5:9: “And having been perfected, (Jesus Christ) He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

Rom. 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

1 Peter 1:20: “He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”

Hebrews 9:26: “He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

And of course Jesus Christ himself said many times:

John 14:6 (in part) "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.

264

[quote]Wayland wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above? This is an honest question. It would seem that very few people are converted later in life. I have been a Christian for a long time, and I am interested to find out the thought process for a Non-Christian. I have a few ideas for why people don?t believe, but I would prefer to hear it before I state something that would corrupt my findings. Again, I am looking for ?point blank? reasons for not believing. Bullet statements would work best.

Me Solomon Grundy

Because christian and western religion in general is flawed by its dualistic properties. And by its manipulation by its leading organisations.

Zoroastrianism is about as valid as christianity and is far older, does it make it anymore valid.

Most religions, by their very nature, are irrational (strictly speaking). Even devout religious scholars will tell you that faith is inherently at odds with logic and reason. That’s why it’s called a “leap of faith.”

The way which can be uttered, is not the eternal Way.
The name which can be named, is not the eternal Name.

[/quote]

Please explain the comment about ?dualistic properties?. I will agree about the part on manipulation by ?leading organizations?.

I have never heard of ?Zoroastrianism? so I cannot speak to the Validity. I do not think that age itself makes any difference in his case. If we were discussing specific ?evidence? then I think it would be relevant.

I would not say that faith has to be at odds with logic and reason. It may not be solely based on ?logic and reason? but it does not have to be in opposition to it. A ?leap of faith? need not be a blind ?leap of faith?. If I understand it correctly, your quote makes a good point. You cannot fully describe or explain spiritual truth within the context of non-spiritual language. This is why to defend a point of view from a religious context you need to define a common terminology. An example would be?trying to describe art or poetry in the same terms that you would politics. Something always gets missed.

Me Solomon Grundy

265

I am confused now, who is the devil? Is it Zeb or doogie?

As far as the decent behavior to one another goes, I think much of that is owed to evolution. If you work with the herd i.e… cooperating, adhering to a set of rules regarding behavior to one another you will survive.

If you don’t work to ensure safety and survival for the herd and actually are causing harm to the herd you will be ostracized making it harder to survive or at the worst you will be terminated.

For most this alone will prod one to keep any negative impulses that creep up at bay.

You will always have the disturbed or anti-social that nothing from a belief in god or anything else that is strong enough to keep them from acting on impulse. Our prisons are full of these types.

266

[quote]orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy

How is that religious?

We don?t believe in supernatural beings, we have no rituals, the only thing we have in common really is that we do not believe in Gods.

No leap of faith whatsoever.[/quote]

Religion defined as ? A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Faith defined as - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

An Atheist says there is no God. This would mean that he puts ?faith? in his own intellect. They will also put faith the science or philosophy (people involved) they used to formulate their opinions. Every person has to believe in something.

Me Solomon Grundy

267

Hey Solomon,

I am still waiting on your PM you stated you were sending me regarding the statements I made. I would like to ask you and a few Christians on here a few questions and see if we could have some good dialogue.

(if this has been asked I apologize)

#1
What is your view of the Christian scriptures? Do you hold the bible as the inerrant or infallible Word of God? (That the bible is without error or contradiction.)

#2
The name Jesus. This name is not the Hebrew name he was called. Jesus, being a form of or derived from a pagan deity?s name, was used instead of his actual name by authorities and translators hundred of years later.
Knowing that Jesus is not the name, his mother called him or the people in the first few centuries how do you reconcile the verses below. (Just to cite 2)

Acts 4:12 -
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Php 2:10 -
Therefore, that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

In this verse in Philippians, especially the latter part of the verse where it speaks to those who are dead and buried. What about the believer or ones who died during his time on earth? Wouldn’t they know his given name instead of Jesus? We cannot just flippantly disregard His name here thinking that, God will work it all out, or I just have to believe and everything will be okay. Paul mandates that believers study to show yourself approved.

#3
God’s Law - The Torah (First 5 books of the Old Testament)

Are Christians, required or expected to obey the Law? (Torah)

The Torah simply means the teachings and instructions by God.

#4 Salvation

Can you show or tell me your faith without using the Apostle Paul? (For this question, you are not allowed to use any of Paul’s letters to show your salvation)

All for now.

Thanks.

268

short and sweet.

christianity is a religion for the weak. the only religion that allows you to dissolve your “sins” at will. the real shitballs of our society tend to be christians. it’s easy to believe in something that offers no real penalty for “sin”. a simple apology to yourself and your released? what a bunch of self-serving garbage. if “jesus” were here today, you so called “christians” would be the first into hell. your hypocracy is mind blowing.now please go kill yourself, so i don’t have to.

269

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy

How is that religious?

We don?t believe in supernatural beings, we have no rituals, the only thing we have in common really is that we do not believe in Gods.

No leap of faith whatsoever.

Religion defined as ? A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Faith defined as - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

An Atheist says there is no God. This would mean that he puts ?faith? in his own intellect. They will also put faith the science or philosophy (people involved) they used to formulate their opinions. Every person has to believe in something.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

I get the atheism as a belief part, though you have to understand that a lot of agnostics tend to call themselves atheists to avoid misunderstandings…

Sounds delusional, but I am as agnostic when it comes Jahwe as I am concerning Thor or Baal.

A lot of Christians however, hearing agnostic, think it is either no god or their god, calling myself an atheist is a way of avoiding that discussion and for a Christian there is no real distinction there anyway.

What I do not get how atheism is something we pursue or are devoted to.

Where are our churches?

Our Fedaijin?

Our battlecry:" No higher being, therefore no prophets whatsoever, die, um, fidel (?) !!!"

Atheism is just not something you can actively be or do…

270

[quote]orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy

How is that religious?

We don?t believe in supernatural beings, we have no rituals, the only thing we have in common really is that we do not believe in Gods.

No leap of faith whatsoever.

Religion defined as ? A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Faith defined as - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

An Atheist says there is no God. This would mean that he puts ?faith? in his own intellect. They will also put faith the science or philosophy (people involved) they used to formulate their opinions. Every person has to believe in something.

Me Solomon Grundy

I get the atheism as a belief part, though you have to understand that a lot of agnostics tend to call themselves atheists to avoid misunderstandings…

Sounds delusional, but I am as agnostic when it comes Jahwe as I am concerning Thor or Baal.

A lot of Christians however, hearing agnostic, think it is either no god or their god, calling myself an atheist is a way of avoiding that discussion and for a Christian there is no real distinction there anyway.

What I do not get how atheism is something we pursue or are devoted to.

Where are our churches?

Our Fedaijin?

Our battlecry:" No higher being, therefore no prophets whatsoever, die, um, fidel (?) !!!"

Atheism is just not something you can actively be or do… [/quote]

Let me start at the end. I disagree with your last statement. Belief in God as well as belief in no god is a core belief that affects your choices. If someone honestly believes that there is no god then they will passionately defend that view if you try to convince them otherwise. I would say that Atheists pursue what they view as the truth. An example may be Evolution or separation of Church and State. As prophets substitute scientists, philosophers, Archeologists?for a higher being substitute man. Assert the idea that a free thinking person would have to answer to an invisible all powerful being and you will get passionate opposition.

Me Solomon Grundy

271

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

Let me start at the end. I disagree with your last statement. Belief in God as well as belief in no god is a core belief that affects your choices. If someone honestly believes that there is no god then they will passionately defend that view if you try to convince them otherwise. I would say that Atheists pursue what they view as the truth. An example may be Evolution or separation of Church and State. As prophets substitute scientists, philosophers, Archeologists?for a higher being substitute man. Assert the idea that a free thinking person would have to answer to an invisible all powerful being and you will get passionate opposition.

Me Solomon Grundy

[/quote]

I know that not believing in a God is a core belief that influences a lot of other beliefs.

I fail to see how every core belief is a religion, or why this exact core belief is.

The passionate resistance would be against a believer (of any kind) making ME do or not do things, because of HIM believing in a higher being whose existence is by no means a given.

As long as someone just believes without interfering in my life, believe, who cares…

272

[quote]orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:

Let me start at the end. I disagree with your last statement. Belief in God as well as belief in no god is a core belief that affects your choices. If someone honestly believes that there is no god then they will passionately defend that view if you try to convince them otherwise. I would say that Atheists pursue what they view as the truth. An example may be Evolution or separation of Church and State. As prophets substitute scientists, philosophers, Archeologists?for a higher being substitute man. Assert the idea that a free thinking person would have to answer to an invisible all powerful being and you will get passionate opposition.

Me Solomon Grundy

I know that not believing in a God is a core belief that influences a lot of other beliefs.

I fail to see how every core belief is a religion, or why this exact core belief is.

The passionate resistance would be against a believer (of any kind) making ME do or not do things, because of HIM believing in a higher being whose existence is by no means a given.

As long as someone just believes without interfering in my life, believe, who cares… [/quote]

Every core belief is not. In my opinion the underlying principle is the same between Atheism and Theism is the same. You put faith or trust in something. You can put it in yourself by trusting in your intellect, heart, instinct. You can put it in the science that you base you opinions on. You can put your faith in a god/gods. The Atheist may say there is no god, but they have elevated something to that position. The definitions that I provided earlier were from the dictionary. Religion does not require a supreme being. The passionate resistance that you refer to would not necessarily be against that believer, but against the idea?s that that believer is displaying. Your last statement is impossible in my opinion. The core beliefs that a person has influences their world view. There for, I cannot expect an elected official to make or enforce laws from any other world view. In this way they would be interfering with your life. They could attempt to make laws that you would consider to be intrusive into your life. In America we constantly see this argument of ?separation between church and state?. I do not believe this to be possible. If we were to elect an Atheist it would be unreasonable to expect him to vote or make laws from anything other than an Atheist world view.

Me Solomon Grundy

273

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
What is the main reason that you do not believe in Christ, God, the Bible or all of the above?
[/quote]
I do not believe in god because it is inconsequential whether I do or not…what I mean by this is that in life it does not matter whether god exists or not. I do not believe that even if god existed it would be worth worrying about. I have a life to live and plan to enjoy every minute of it without the guilt of recognition of some deity.

As far as believing in Jesus, that is a different matter. He may have existed and indeed been the purveyor of one of the worlds most profound philosophies; I, however, don’t worship or believe that he is the son of a god…that would be like me worshiping Heracles…the son of a god and mortal. I view both as mythological. I think it is funny that we can convince ourselves that Greek (and Roman)…or even Egyptian mythology is false but Christian mythology is true.

274

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
You can put it in the science that you base you opinions on.
[/quote]
Science is not opinion. It is theoretcal, based on observational hypotheses and therefore must be 1)testabel, 2)repeatable and 3)falsafiable.

For example, I can test the theory of gravity that states all objects fall at the same rate no matter what their mass. This is 1)testable, 2)repeatable (provided I follow a set procedure) and 3)falsafiable. I cannot test the existance of god verses no god. Just as I cannot not test that the meaning of life is 42…

Observations that do not meet the above three criteria can only be taken in faith and therefore can fall into the category of opinion.

Non-science related fields that are based on opinion…and sometimes faith:
Metaphysics; epistemology; ontology; ethics; aesthetics; religion; etc.

275

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:

Every core belief is not. In my opinion the underlying principle is the same between Atheism and Theism is the same. You put faith or trust in something. You can put it in yourself by trusting in your intellect, heart, instinct. You can put it in the science that you base you opinions on. You can put your faith in a god/gods. The Atheist may say there is no god, but they have elevated something to that position. The definitions that I provided earlier were from the dictionary. Religion does not require a supreme being. The passionate resistance that you refer to would not necessarily be against that believer, but against the idea?s that that believer is displaying. Your last statement is impossible in my opinion. The core beliefs that a person has influences their world view. There for, I cannot expect an elected official to make or enforce laws from any other world view. In this way they would be interfering with your life. They could attempt to make laws that you would consider to be intrusive into your life. In America we constantly see this argument of ?separation between church and state?. I do not believe this to be possible. If we were to elect an Atheist it would be unreasonable to expect him to vote or make laws from anything other than an Atheist world view.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

I knew that my last sentence described something impossible, I just wanted to know how you react to it.

There are “moderate” believers that actually think that private religion is possible and that it indeed should be private.

My point is that it cannot remain “private”, i.e. “off limits” if it affects so many other peoples lifes.

To the point "we have raised other ideas,beliefs,people even methods,like science, to take Gods place.

While emotionally that may be true for some, if not most people, because yes people are hard-wired to “believe” in things, intellectually it isn?t.

Science is not a belief system, it is a system of organized dis-belief.

It is true that science also has some underlying assumptions it does not work without, but none are as far-fetched as there is an invisible being in the sky that demands of us the following…, and we are able and willing to question even those and we can test them again an again and again…

The real difference is that, ideally, we atheists only believe whereas believers know.

276

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
You can put it in the science that you base you opinions on.

Science is not opinion. It is theoretcal, based on observational hypotheses and therefore must be 1)testabel, 2)repeatable and 3)falsafiable.

For example, I can test the theory of gravity that states all objects fall at the same rate no matter what their mass. This is 1)testable, 2)repeatable (provided I follow a set procedure) and 3)falsafiable. I cannot test the existance of god verses no god. Just as I cannot not test that the meaning of life is 42…

Observations that do not meet the above three criteria can only be taken in faith and therefore can fall into the category of opinion.

Non-science related fields that are based on opinion…and sometimes faith:
Metaphysics; epistemology; ontology; ethics; aesthetics; religion; etc.[/quote]

You first define what constitutes science and then declare epistemoloy to be a matter of faith and opinion.

Good luck with that one…

277

[quote]orion wrote:
You first define what constitutes science and then declare epistemoloy to be a matter of faith and opinion.

Good luck with that one…
[/quote]
Espistemology is not strictly science; though many arguemnts for what we can know seem to fall into the realm of science. Epistemology is merely the philosphy of the nature of knowledge. Most epistemologists were not scientists; they never conducted one observational experiment.

Kant comes to mind. Though I tend to agree with his Critique of Pure Reason it is only a “critique” and thus falls into the realm of opinion…it is not testable, nor is it falsafiable.

278

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Right - but that is the crux of my question. No one has to choose how much to care about the next person. You assume they do, and rightly so, I think - but why do people generally choose to do so?[/quote]

I don’t get your point here, thunder. Everyone as a matter of being a human being, atheist or not, makes a choice how much to care about stuff. It’s your choice to step over a homeless guy in the street or throw the bum a quarter.

This also goes for how much you care about animals, how much you care about the weather, how much you care about national politics, etc. Do you see what I’m getting at here? The only way you don’t make that choice I mentioned every single day is if you are not around any other people. No people = no decisions about other people… although you could be prepared to act a certain way when you did eventually meet somebody. Once again, a choice you have made.

My whole thing was trying to show you that there is a non-religious based reason to act in a selfless and honest manner. Being a man of virtue and good intent is its own reward without having to carry some belief in a supernatural postmortem punishment or reward. You don’t have to be Pavlov’s Dog.

I like where you are going with this. Perhaps you have the idea of Humanism a little tweaked from the way I think of it – maybe my definition is all fucked up.

I do not espouse the belief that people are born “good” in and of themselves. Actually, I’m pretty sure that the truth is that we are innately selfish and primitive… unless we are trained otherwise. What I have expectations regarding other people lies in the effect that my behavior will have on them.

In other words, if I act on a selfless and positive manner, I can count on several things to happen to the people that come into contact with me. #1 They will come to trust me and learn that they can rely on me. #2 They will lighten up. Sometimes they will even start acting selflessly and “good” themselves.

My personal definition of Humanism is that this life we are living has real value in and of itself. In other words, our existence here isn’t some kind of “test” to see if we are going to heaven or not. I fully reject that idea, and prefer to live my life loving as many days and as many people of it that I can.

279

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
In other words, if another free-thinking person feels that he should live a selfish life, and that works for him, is his ‘way’ as good as ‘your way?’

Yes and no.

Remember how important a point of view is. If this guy wants to be a dick, then fine. It’s not like you can force somebody to be nice. If it was someone I had some kind of necessary contact with, I might try to change his mind about things by leading by example. I’ve done it before here at work. Several people, actually.

From my point of view and in my experience, living a selfish life of greed and lying to others brings its own measure of despair. In this way, that selfish lifestyle is inferior to one which celebrates honesty and kindness.[/quote]

OK – interesting. Then can I make the following observations:

(1) You believe that “your way” is better than this “other way.”

(2) You would try to “convert” that person from his way – because that it leads to a life of despair [your words] – to your way.

(3) You recognize that the way of giving to others and consideration for others is a better way then not doing those things.

So…

(1) As you, I believe that God’s way is the ultimate best way.

(2) Like you, when I see someone living their ‘own way’ and not God’s way [the ultimate best way] – since it will lead them to the despair of Hell – I try to lead them out of that way and into God’s way [the ultimate best way].

(3) Where do you think that your awareness [conscience] of the fact that the way of giving to others is better than not, came from? Yourself? God has given every man a conscience, and while that is not enough to ensure salvation, it is enough to give us some of God’s light. To be saved, we just need to keep going to the next level and acknowledge God, but humbling oursleves before Him.

Anyway, by your own admission, you would do the same thing that I am doing, only you seem to have a problem when I do it.

Just observations, but a good discussion, my friend.

~SteveO

280

[quote]makkun wrote:
steveo5801,

steveo5801 wrote:
makkun wrote:
Solomon Grundy,

another great thread has been turned into a pissing contest. Sorry that this has happened - seems like some people really can’t enjoy a fruitful and fair discussion.

Makkun

You English guys keep proving me right when I said several weeks ago that “England has lost her soul.”

England was once the pinnacle of the reformation, sending vast numbers of missionaries onto the foreign field.

Now, except for a very very tiny group of born-again believers, you are a dark, anti-Christian nation.

It is truly a shame…

I think your answer couldn’t be more off topic: I complain about the style of debate here - and you jump to the conclusion that
a) I’m English (everyone who actually reads posts here knows that I am not)[/quote]

Please forgive me, you are listed as from “England” so my concluding that you were British, although wrong, is not without a reasonable explanation.[quote]

b) I’m the example how “England” has fallen from the Christian religion (that’s a funny one, especially when we take a) into account)[/quote]

I still stand on what I said about England’s spiritual condition, while noting “a” above.[quote]

c) Only born again Christians are real Christians (that’s the part that really pisses ex-Christians like me and our decent and modest Christian friends off)[/quote]

I am sorry that what the Bible has to say upsets you. I really am. However, I am more concerned about people’s eternal soul, than getting them upset or mad – although I wish God’s message didn’t do that.

Look, the Bible says what it says. It said Jesus is the “only way” that “ye must be born again,” for over 2,000 years and IT WON’T CHANGE!

The fact is that according to Jesus Christ only born-again Chrisitans are true Christians (Read John chapter 3!). Jesus said, “ye must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.” You don’t have to be some sort of genius theologian to interpret this. Just read it and believe what it simply says.[quote]

Now from having observed how you wield “arguments” with others, I do not expect to be treated fair or with respect from you. Too bad - I would have greeted it, if you had chosen to bring the debate back on track and introduced a more civilised tone.

Makkun[/quote]

Makkun,

Your last point is a fair one. I don’t mean to wield a harsh tone. Remember (and I am not exusing myself) “tone” is very hard to convey in writing – especially when I am not a professional writer.

When someone believes passionately about something so important, so vital, as the eternal destiny of people – well then I guess the “tone” does sound harsh. I will try to tone it down – if I can (pun intended :slight_smile: )

I am very sorry that I might have offended you in how I said something on this website. Please accept my sincere apology – which goes for all of you out there.

I do not, however, apologize for what the Bible has to say and I will continue to base my arguments on the unchanging Word of God!

281

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
makkun wrote:

I think your answer couldn’t be more off topic: I complain about the style of debate here - and you jump to the conclusion that
a) I’m English (everyone who actually reads posts here knows that I am not)
b) I’m the example how “England” has fallen from the Christian religion (that’s a funny one, especially when we take a) into account)
c) Only born again Christians are real Christians (that’s the part that really pisses ex-Christians like me and our decent and modest Christian friends off)

Now from having observed how you wield “arguments” with others, I do not expect to be treated fair or with respect from you. Too bad - I would have greeted it, if you had chosen to bring the debate back on track and introduced a more civilised tone.

Makkun

I concur.

Makkun’s post was a lament that a good discussion started by Solomon had been whittled down to a pissing contest.

Steve, this is why you are part of the problem - you couldn’t resist an opportunity to try and attack someone for not being part of the Born Again Club, even when Makkun wasn’t even coming close to making a point about religion.

Swing and a bad miss, Steve - you have God-given intelligence, try using it.

[/quote]

Criticism taken and I appreciate that. See my response to Makkun and my apology as well for the way I said what I said.

282

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
orion wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
In my opinion Atheist’s have there own religion. They believe or put their faith in themselves or science.

Me Solomon Grundy

How is that religious?

We don?t believe in supernatural beings, we have no rituals, the only thing we have in common really is that we do not believe in Gods.

No leap of faith whatsoever.

Religion defined as ? A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Faith defined as - Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

An Atheist says there is no God. This would mean that he puts ?faith? in his own intellect. They will also put faith the science or philosophy (people involved) they used to formulate their opinions. Every person has to believe in something.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

Good point, Solomon! They also have to serve somebody also…