[quote]ZEB wrote:
futuredave wrote:
I will shorten what you said for the sake of simplicity and assume that Dahmer was sincere, as his spiritual advisors believed.
Forgive me, but you are making sweeping generalizations when you do this.[/quote]
With due respect, I don’t think my generalizations are sweeping. They are the logical conclusions of the information we have. It seems you are uncomfortable with the answers Christian theology provides and are hedging by saying “we just don’t know.”
I’m not trying to change your mind, I’m just showing you one of the ways in which Christianity makes no sense to me.
I disagree with him on this. As do the jews. They believe a man is defined by his actions, not thoughts. It is VASTLY different to commit murder than to think for a moment you wish someone were dead.
You will say it’s the same in the mind of God. I disagree. As do those who started your religion.
Many rabbis believe a man would be better off being an ATHIEST who takes part in the mitzvohs of being involved in the community/charity, than a man who believes in God but busies himself with study.
1st rule of marketing, create a need – often by playing on insecurities. (“Oh oh, foot odor.” “Fish again last night dear?”
2nd rule: Offer to fill that need.
Question: If you take Hell out of your theology, what is the point ot Christianity?
Am I perfect? No! But I don’t believe I was ever intended or expected to be.
Exactly! Because the rules you espouse don’t make sense!
No, you accept Paul’s teachings as the will of God.
[quote]That doesn’t mean I’m an athiest.
You are saying there is some sort of God out there, but you don’t understand what it is?
(Trying to understand what you are saying)
[/quote]
Yes. But I believe what’s important is living by the principles which spring up in most religions – kindness, charity, love, integrity – rather than getting “facts” right. Mohammed was the last prophet, Jesus died for your sins, God ordained this special underwear for Mormons, etc.
Solomon mentioned the Great Commission earlier. I believe if the Great Commission had been “Go out and bring the world clean drinking water and sanitation,” the world would have been a much better place by now.
In fact, the Noahide Laws were basically this. Allegedly defined by God to Noah. I posted them earlier, but here they are again:
The seven laws are:
Do not worship false gods.
Do not murder.
Do not steal (or kidnap).
Do not be sexually immoral
Do not “bless God” euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.
The Talmud also states: “Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come” (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of “the righteous among the gentiles”.
You spineless, dickless, faithless douchebag. I almost hope it turns out there is a hell so I can hear your screams someday as you roast for eternity.
You clearly are the spawn of Satan’s seed.
You have proven yourself to be a typical ignorant, hypocritical Christian pretender.
You poor, ignorant, sinful ass.
reading the ravings of hypocritical, faithless assholes like you, Zeb.
You really are a simpleton.
…it is as if you are pissing in his faith.
Your lies matter not.
…you lie to suit your needs.
Douche, douche, douche.[/quote]
Somebody didn’t eat their happy meal today.
Okay seriously, doogie you really can personally attack people on the Internet! I have to give you that.
In fact in all my time here on T-Nation I don’t think I have ever read more personal put downs coming from one guy, on one post.
All kidding aside, when it comes to swearing, ACCUSING (and we’ll talk more about that word later) and attackig on an Internet web site, I think you are the best.
In fact, I think you need to get an award for your efforts.
Hmm…let’s call it the first ever T-Nation “TEEN TOUGH GUY” award.
(Confetti is falling from the cieling…you are now very happy as you won something.)
Congrats man! You are it when it comes to acting tough on the Internet.
But wait, on not so funny a note.
The Bible clearly states in John 8:43, 44:
"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father the devil and you want to carry out your fathers desire…
It’s pretty clear that those who do not accept Jesus Christ are indeed not children of God by of the devil!
Now we know that “Satan” means adversary, or the accuser.
Although he has many names:
Prince of this world-
The wicked one-
Prince of the power of air-
The sower of discord-
The enemy of all good-
The father of lies-
The slanderer-
Etc…
That you have thus far chosen to not accept Jesus Christ and you continue carry on the role of slanderer and accuser I think it’s only fair that you be called a child of the devil.
At least for now until you someday accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Remeber we are all sinners, the only thing that separates us for eternity is one simply free choice that we should make.
Onto your slanderous lies as you unknowingly carry out your fathers work:
[quote]Understand, douchebag, that I didn’t say quoting Romans (as all the sites you posted did) was plagiarism.
ZEB wrote:
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
David J. Stewart wrote:
Let’s look at Romans 8:29 again, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
You deleted the word “again”.[/quote]
I did?
Why didn’t I simply copy and paste?
Who cares about the word “again?”
Unless I actually wrote it… WHICH I DID!
This is a direct quote from the Bible:
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
I wrote: “Let’s look at Romans 8:29”
The guy you accuse me of copying said:
“Let’s look at Romans 8:29 again…”
You are attempting to ACCUSE (Satan means The Accuser) me of plagiarism for four words. Of which those four words can be a set up for virtually any body of scripture…
Oooooookay…
Let’s move on to your next ACCUSATION.
(Remember everyone Satan means "The Accuser…who is at work here?)
[quote]zeb wrote:
Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be comformed into Jesus likeness.”
David J. Stewart wrote:
Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be conformed into Jesus’ likeness.”
You copied that exactly.[/quote]
Wrong again ACCUSER!
The above is right out of…
Romans 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son…”
I simply explained what “predestined” means and quoted the verse.
Do other Christians do this?
Um…ALL THE TIME!
But if I quote a verse and use my own words it’s somehow stealing simply because three or four of those same words were used by other Christians?
If you had bothered to read the NINE web sites that I posted for you, you would have seen that the topic of “predestination” is talked about frequently and those words are used by others.
But then if you had done that you could not ACCUSE me of something I have not done.
But wait…what if I used a different phrase?
If I would have said “The meaning of predestination is…”
You would have accused me of copying those words from other web sites.
The Christian truths are basic doogie. There are many of us saying the same thing.
[b]Oh now you ACCUSE Jesus of being a liar!
Well…I’m in good company. :)[/b]
And YOU are in bad company, your father the devil! Satan means The Accuser as you know by now. But I will keep reminding you anyway.
One more time for you doogie:
He was fully God and fully man! One more concept you probably neither like or accept. But none the less is true!
doogie logic seems to state that if you don’t completely understand something then it can’t be true!
(shaking head)
Wake up before it’s too late!
Um…don’t want to say anything bad about your Dad? Okay…I understand.
God is waging a battle against the forces of evil. In that battle there are many methods which the Lord uses. he even uses the enemy!
False understanding of Hell? I understand that Hell is a real place of torment…But more on that later.
He allows all of us sinners to be here “temporarily” and to be in sin. He allowed Satan, the great accuser (adversary) in his presence “temporarily” to bring ACCUSATIONS against job. He did this to prove a point to Satan, which he did.
You see doogie God uses Satan to fullfill his (Gods) plan on earth.
Another indication of this is 2Corinthians 12:7,& 9:
"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations there was given me a thorn in my flesh a messenger of Satan to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness.
God uses Satan not the other way around.
The sinners of this world who have not accepted Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of fire for permenent residence! And that includes the one who currently decieves you…Satan!
Will you ACCUSE me of lying or forgive
me for leaving part of it out:
God cannot be around sin…“PERMANENTLY!”
[quote]God shall not be mocked!
In full:
Galatians 6:7:
“Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”
I don’t respond well to threats or ultimatums.
He shall be mocked.[/quote]
Oh doogie I know you are big and brave behind the comfort of you computer keyboard. Rattling off jokes from a site called “blasphemy.”
But take a look at the very first three words of that verse: Be not deceived! That means that someone or something (perhaps your father the devil) is tryig to deceive you by allowing you to feel all brave and bold thinking nothing will ever happen.
But someday you will meet your maker and you will have to answer for your actions here on earth. Judgement awaits all of your actions including those where you mock God.
You remind me of a criminal who brags about breaking the law as he has not been caught…YET!
doogie you need Jesus Christ more than ever! And you should accept him now, don’t wait. None of us knows when we will meet our ultimate end here on earth.
If you don’t take that path less than one second after you die you won’t be feeling very brave or in the mood to mock as Hell is a very real place of torment, as Jesus Christ clearly stated.
[quote]When man fell, through Adam and Eve, they brought “sin” into the world.
“Man” had not sinned up to the point of falling in the garden.
Satan (The accuser) was doing his thing. But he was already cast out of Heaven for rebellion.
So you again showed you don’t understand the bible. Sin was already in the world when the apple was eaten.[/quote]
Read the above again doogie.
Only “man” could bring sin into the world. You keep elevating your father the devil (any who do not accept Christ has the devil for a father John 8) into a place that he is not meant to be.
Man by eating the apple brought sin into the world.
And “man” in the form of Jesus Christ was put here to lead those out of sin who freely accept his great sacrifice!
Get it yet?
No?
Then…
ONTO HELL…
Because you cannot grasp the concept of Hell you reject that it’s there.
More Biblical truth for you because I don’t want you to keep following your father the devil.
I want you to be born again!
Here is what Jesus Christ said about Hell:
He said there was “FIRE” in Hell:
Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41 18:8, 25:41
5:22, 18:9, also Mark 9:47.
And lest you think it is temporary:
“Eternal damnation” Mark 3:29
It’s not pleasant in Hell:
Wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 13:42 and 50.
Tormented
Luke 16:23
Place Of Torment
Luke 16:28
Everlasting Punishment
Matt 25:46.
Now I know you don’t understand the scriptures, but that is no reason to reject them.
There are many things in life (in all our lives) that we first do not understand. And we swear that it’s simply untrue. Then later on we find out that we’re wrong!
Usually no harm done. Or any harm can be reversed.
I promise you doogie that as sure as I am typing these words to you right now, if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior and repent from you foolish ways, you are headed for an enternity in Hell!
I can’t be more emphatic than that.
And I only post this because I care about you (although it’s getting more difficult with every one of your posts
If you can possibly avoid your constant peronal attacks I would love to continue the dialogue.
[quote]futuredave wrote:
ZEB wrote:
futuredave wrote:
I will shorten what you said for the sake of simplicity and assume that Dahmer was sincere, as his spiritual advisors believed.
Forgive me, but you are making sweeping generalizations when you do this.
With due respect, I don’t think my generalizations are sweeping. They are the logical conclusions of the information we have. It seems you are uncomfortable with the answers Christian theology provides and are hedging by saying “we just don’t know.”[/quote]
I’m very comfortable with the answers that the Bible gives us.
However, it is a sweeping conclusion to assume some of the things that you assumed.
We don’t know the heart, only God does!
We can play games and make assumptions.
I read a while back where two famous Hollywood tough guys accepted Jesus Christ as their savior on their death bed:
John Wayne and Steve McQueen.
Did that actually happen?
I did read about it happening and I hope it was real.
Was it real?
Only God knows Dave.
No, I understand your point. And it is well taken.
But in reality because you and I don’t understand something does not mean that that something is false or a lie.
[quote]Christ said that you didn’t have to actually commit adultry to be a sinner. You could merely look at a woman with lust in your heart and you have sinned.
I disagree with him on this. As do the jews. They believe a man is defined by his actions, not thoughts. It is VASTLY different to commit murder than to think for a moment you wish someone were dead.[/quote]
Yes it is a vastly different worldly outcome. But again God speaks and cares about the heart (as well as worldly actions).
Yes…I just did.
But in reality when Jesus Christ came to earth it was the start of something brand spanking new!
[quote]And that is why we are all sinners.
1st rule of marketing, create a need – often by playing on insecurities. (“Oh oh, foot odor.” “Fish again last night dear?”
Everyone of us is a sinner and we need Jesus Christ!
2nd rule: Offer to fill that need.[/quote]
So…Jesus Christ coming to earth and doing the things that he did was because of “marketing” which was not even around for almost a couple of thousand years after Christ.
While I think I know what you are getting at…
I gotta disagree with you on that one. Now if you had said that modern marketing was copying Christians…
I think the point would be to spend enternity in Heaven.
You didn’t take Heaven out too did you Dave?
Okay…PHEW…
No, and that’s exactly why Jesus Christ came to earth, so you wouldn’t have to be!
[quote]I didn’t make the rules, if I had it would work differently.
Exactly! Because the rules you espouse don’t make sense![/quote]
They don’t make sense to YOU, so they are wrong?
Big stretch there…Unless you have all the knowledge that there is.
I know you are a bright guy, I can tell from your posts…But that might be stretching it huh?
[quote]But I accept the rules as being the will of God.
No, you accept Paul’s teachings as the will of God.[/quote]
I do?
Well then I accept Johns, Marks, Lukes, oh forget it I’m not goint to list them all.
I’ll just say this:
2Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness
[quote]Yes. But I believe what’s important is living by the principles which spring up in most religions – kindness, charity, love, integrity – rather than getting “facts” right. Mohammed was the last prophet, Jesus died for your sins, God ordained this special underwear for Mormons, etc.
Solomon mentioned the Great Commission earlier. I believe if the Great Commission had been “Go out and bring the world clean drinking water and sanitation,” the world would have been a much better place by now.
In fact, the Noahide Laws were basically this. Allegedly defined by God to Noah. I posted them earlier, but here they are again:
The seven laws are:
Do not worship false gods.
Do not murder.
Do not steal (or kidnap).
Do not be sexually immoral
Do not “bless God” euphemistically referring to blasphemy.
Do not eat any flesh that was torn from the body of a living animal (traditionally interpreted as a prohibition of cruelty towards animals)
Do not permit oppression or anarchy to rule. Set up a system of honest, effective courts, police and laws to uphold the last six laws.
The Talmud also states: “Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come” (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of “the righteous among the gentiles”.
[/quote]
Thanks for explaining where you stand.
As you know I believe that being kind, generous, thoughtful, helpful etc. are all good things as well.
But I also believe that none of that (even though you should do it) wil get you into Heaven.
But thanks for the conversation. You really did a fine job of explaining your position for me.
[quote]DPH wrote:
hspder wrote:
So, to sum it up: the only thing we can observe is the effects that energy has on our cells (in the eyes, ears, mouth, nose and skin).
do you think it may be possible for humans to observe space(three dimensions) and time? if so, what do you think space and time are made out of?[/quote]
time as we understand it does not really exist. These things are matters of scale.
geological, human, Gnat.
All matters of scale. Time is a numerical figure that we happen to put on our planet with our sun, and us going around it.
Maybe you are getting at the quantum world.
now thats stuff is freaky, and some guys on here know a fair bit on it.
The sinning, false Christian, son of Satan known as Zeb wrote:
Wrong again ACCUSER!
The above is right out of…
Romans 8:29 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son…”
I simply explained what “predestined” means and quoted the verse.
Do other Christians do this?
Um…ALL THE TIME![/quote]
Find that EXACT phrase used ANY other place on the internet besides here and the website you stole it from and I will apologize.
Also, I see you again ignore your stealing of this phrase:
Exact words, exact order, exact use of capitalization for emphasis, one mispelled word, one missing apostrophe.
You are a liar, a thief, and too stupid to know how to cut and paste.
I promise you, Zeb, that as sure as I am typing these words to you right now, if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior and repent from you foolish ways and admit your thievery and dishonesty, you are headed for an enternity in Hell!
another great thread has been turned into a pissing contest. Sorry that this has happened - seems like some people really can’t enjoy a fruitful and fair discussion.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
One is to the atheists/agnostics, etc.: under what principles should we govern our ethical/moral behavior in the absence of an accountbaility to a higher power?
This is not a new question, but one I have never heard a satisfactory answer to. I usually hear that there exists a common thread of humanity, some version of a ‘humanism’ that establishes that we shouldn’t kill one another, etc.
[/quote]
I can’t believe that you’ve never heard a satisfactory answer for this, man!
Atheist morality is actually quite simple.
Remember that as a free-thinking individual (atheist or not), you have a choice to make. That choice is simply how much you want to care about other people.
I personally have tried out the entire spectrum of selfishly not giving a shit during my teen years, to slowly coming around and seeing the value in others and rejecting my selfishness, to be where I am at today. I can state quite clearly that being selfish is not a good thing.
There is SOOO much more to gain personally and otherwise by being selfless instead. It is not my conscience or a story book which tells me this, it is simple math:
The collective power of a selfish, thoughtless asshole < the collective power of a kind, generous person
I have proven the above mathematical inequality by countless amounts of experimentation.
Plainly, it is in your own best interest to act in such a way as to make friends, influence people in a positive way, and just be an all-around kind-hearted person. Santa wins, Scrooge loses.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
doogie I gave you 9 web sites. Why don’t you search through them tonight when you are not sleeping.
[/quote]
More lies from, the son of Satan. Not one of the sites you linked to includes either of these EXACT phrases:
or
The only site that does is the jesus-is-savior.com–the one you stole it from.
Prove otherwise and I will apologize. Otherwise, prepare to burn in hell.
God has looked into your heart, Zeb. He sees you lie in his name. He sees you for the hypocrit you are. He knows you teach hate and hell, rather than peace and love. He knows you turn people away from him with your fascination with evil and aversion to compassion. He knows your tiny heart cannot grasp the enormity of his love, and that you try to simplify his glory into a lesson of fear. He knows you boast of false understanding of his word. He knows what you really are, and he has warned us against you.
Matthew 7:15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Proverbs 11:9
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
2 Timothy 3:3-5
3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God? 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
What denomination do you belong to, Zeb? Who has taught you such a twisted version of God’s love? Who filled your heart with such hate that you can believe a god of love would burn his creations for eternity? Who has turned your insides to stone, allowing you to rationalize eternal punishment for finite sins?
God is love, Zeb. He doesn’t need your threats of hellfire and vengence to touch mens’ hearts.
1 John 4:7,8
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:20, 21
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
John 13:34,35
34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1 John 3:10-12
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
1 Corinthians 13:1-6
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
One is to the atheists/agnostics, etc.: under what principles should we govern our ethical/moral behavior in the absence of an accountbaility to a higher power?
[/quote]
It all boils down to the golden rule. You don’t need religion to tell you to be decent to people, but all religions do it anyway.
Christianity
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1
Confucianism
Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2
Buddhism
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1
Hinduism
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517
Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Taoism
Regard your neighbor?s gain as your gain, and your neighbor?s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P?ien
Zoroastrianism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I may regret getting involved in this thread, but there are some interesting questions to explore.
One is to the atheists/agnostics, etc.: under what principles should we govern our ethical/moral behavior in the absence of an accountbaility to a higher power?
This is not a new question, but one I have never heard a satisfactory answer to. I usually hear that there exists a common thread of humanity, some version of a ‘humanism’ that establishes that we shouldn’t kill one another, etc.
But whatever the merits of that humanism, it is based on the same foundations as faith in religion - i.e., it exists beyond empirical, rational, and logical explanation. Man’s nature, as history has taught us, is innately savage.
That being said, I welcome any thoughts on this.
It should also be noted, though, that in what is often a heated debate between believers and non-believers, the believers are not all of the same philosophical stripe. Much of the scientific ‘refutation’ of the Bible only refutes that which Biblical inerrantists propose as infallible scientific truth. If a believer does not fall into that inerrantist camp, the idea that science has ‘disproven’ religion has little to do with the debate at hand.[/quote]
Excellent post and opportunity for good discussion here.
another great thread has been turned into a pissing contest. Sorry that this has happened - seems like some people really can’t enjoy a fruitful and fair discussion.
Makkun[/quote]
You English guys keep proving me right when I said several weeks ago that “England has lost her soul.”
England was once the pinnacle of the reformation, sending vast numbers of missionaries onto the foreign field.
Now, except for a very very tiny group of born-again believers, you are a dark, anti-Christian nation.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
One is to the atheists/agnostics, etc.: under what principles should we govern our ethical/moral behavior in the absence of an accountbaility to a higher power?
This is not a new question, but one I have never heard a satisfactory answer to. I usually hear that there exists a common thread of humanity, some version of a ‘humanism’ that establishes that we shouldn’t kill one another, etc.
I can’t believe that you’ve never heard a satisfactory answer for this, man!
Atheist morality is actually quite simple.
Remember that as a free-thinking individual (atheist or not), you have a choice to make. That choice is simply how much you want to care about other people.
I personally have tried out the entire spectrum of selfishly not giving a shit during my teen years, to slowly coming around and seeing the value in others and rejecting my selfishness, to be where I am at today. I can state quite clearly that being selfish is not a good thing.
There is SOOO much more to gain personally and otherwise by being selfless instead. It is not my conscience or a story book which tells me this, it is simple math:
The collective power of a selfish, thoughtless asshole < the collective power of a kind, generous person
I have proven the above mathematical inequality by countless amounts of experimentation.
Plainly, it is in your own best interest to act in such a way as to make friends, influence people in a positive way, and just be an all-around kind-hearted person. Santa wins, Scrooge loses.
Hope that helps, thunder. :)[/quote]
So, let us understand this. Please answer this question, specifically as it relates to you and your outlook on life.[b]
Question: Is your ‘way’ of living and belief in being kind, etc. better than everyone else’s way?
In other words, if another free-thinking person feels that he should live a selfish life, and that works for him, is his ‘way’ as good as ‘your way?’[/b]
[quote]doogie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
doogie I gave you 9 web sites. Why don’t you search through them tonight when you are not sleeping.
More lies from, the son of Satan. Not one of the sites you linked to includes either of these EXACT phrases:
Predestination means that God has chosen us “to be conformed into Jesus’ likeness.”
or
The Bible does NOT say anything about being chosen for salvation.
The only site that does is the jesus-is-savior.com–the one you stole it from.
Prove otherwise and I will apologize. Otherwise, prepare to burn in hell.
God has looked into your heart, Zeb. He sees you lie in his name. He sees you for the hypocrit you are. He knows you teach hate and hell, rather than peace and love. He knows you turn people away from him with your fascination with evil and aversion to compassion. He knows your tiny heart cannot grasp the enormity of his love, and that you try to simplify his glory into a lesson of fear. He knows you boast of false understanding of his word. He knows what you really are, and he has warned us against you.
Matthew 7:15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Proverbs 11:9
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
2 Timothy 3:3-5
3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God? 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
What denomination do you belong to, Zeb? Who has taught you such a twisted version of God’s love? Who filled your heart with such hate that you can believe a god of love would burn his creations for eternity? Who has turned your insides to stone, allowing you to rationalize eternal punishment for finite sins?
God is love, Zeb. He doesn’t need your threats of hellfire and vengence to touch mens’ hearts.
1 John 4:7,8
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:20, 21
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
John 13:34,35
34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
1 John 3:10-12
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
1 Corinthians 13:1-6
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
[/quote]
You are a very disturbed individual. Also, you like taking verses out of context.
Yes, God is a God of love, but He is also a God of judgment. Plainly, if Hell is false, then Jesus is a liar, then He cannot be the Son of God, and thus couldn’t have died for anyone’s sins.
Therefore, your Biblical interpretation is very wanting. I suggest that you take your meds, then study the Bible for several years, humble yourself before God and ask forgiveness for your sins, then perhaps you can have a rational discussion.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote: In other words, if another free-thinking person feels that he should live a selfish life, and that works for him, is his ‘way’ as good as ‘your way?’
[/quote]
Yes and no.
Remember how important a point of view is. If this guy wants to be a dick, then fine. It’s not like you can force somebody to be nice. If it was someone I had some kind of necessary contact with, I might try to change his mind about things by leading by example. I’ve done it before here at work. Several people, actually.
From my point of view and in my experience, living a selfish life of greed and lying to others brings its own measure of despair. In this way, that selfish lifestyle is inferior to one which celebrates honesty and kindness.
another great thread has been turned into a pissing contest. Sorry that this has happened - seems like some people really can’t enjoy a fruitful and fair discussion.
Makkun
You English guys keep proving me right when I said several weeks ago that “England has lost her soul.”
England was once the pinnacle of the reformation, sending vast numbers of missionaries onto the foreign field.
Now, except for a very very tiny group of born-again believers, you are a dark, anti-Christian nation.
It is truly a shame…
[/quote]
I think your answer couldn’t be more off topic: I complain about the style of debate here - and you jump to the conclusion that
a) I’m English (everyone who actually reads posts here knows that I am not)
b) I’m the example how “England” has fallen from the Christian religion (that’s a funny one, especially when we take a) into account)
c) Only born again Christians are real Christians (that’s the part that really pisses ex-Christians like me and our decent and modest Christian friends off)
Now from having observed how you wield “arguments” with others, I do not expect to be treated fair or with respect from you. Too bad - I would have greeted it, if you had chosen to bring the debate back on track and introduced a more civilised tone.
I can’t believe that you’ve never heard a satisfactory answer for this, man!
Atheist morality is actually quite simple.
Remember that as a free-thinking individual (atheist or not), you have a choice to make. That choice is simply how much you want to care about other people.[/quote]
Right - but that is the crux of my question. No one has to choose how much to care about the next person. You assume they do, and rightly so, I think - but why do people generally choose to do so?
My primary point was a bit different - many atheists don’t believe in God on the basis that there are no ‘rational’ underpinnings to do so - God has not been proven, it is irrational/illogical to do so, etc. If belief in God is objectionable on the basis that it is irrational, then a belief in humanism would be objectionable all the same - since humanism relies on a belief that there is a universal goodness or expectation or ‘Golden Rule’ among humanity, none of which has any universal provability, i.e. it is a matter of faith.
Maybe you are an atheist for a different reason. I am not opposed to the idea of humanism at all - I just want to know why some atheists reject a belief in a deity on the basis of ‘rationality’ but not humanism - when both concepts are quite clearly predicated on faith.
I think your answer couldn’t be more off topic: I complain about the style of debate here - and you jump to the conclusion that
a) I’m English (everyone who actually reads posts here knows that I am not)
b) I’m the example how “England” has fallen from the Christian religion (that’s a funny one, especially when we take a) into account)
c) Only born again Christians are real Christians (that’s the part that really pisses ex-Christians like me and our decent and modest Christian friends off)
Now from having observed how you wield “arguments” with others, I do not expect to be treated fair or with respect from you. Too bad - I would have greeted it, if you had chosen to bring the debate back on track and introduced a more civilised tone.
Makkun[/quote]
I concur.
Makkun’s post was a lament that a good discussion started by Solomon had been whittled down to a pissing contest.
Steve, this is why you are part of the problem - you couldn’t resist an opportunity to try and attack someone for not being part of the Born Again Club, even when Makkun wasn’t even coming close to making a point about religion.
Swing and a bad miss, Steve - you have God-given intelligence, try using it.
"Blessed are you when people insult you persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you becasue of me.
Rejoice and be glad because great is you reward in heaven…"[/b]
You don’t apologize when proven wrong. You simply rant and rave and change the subject. I proved you wrong on the other thread and you never apologized. I clearly demonstrated that I stated previously “the USA has 159 million Christians”
Remember that?
Where’s the apology on that one ACCUSER?
Wouldn’t your Dad allow it?
LOL!
You admit Hell exists?
Well that’s a good first step!
But do you really mean it?
If so all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your savior and you won’t have to worry about spending eternity there.
Oh that’s right big bad T-Men like you don’t scare easily huh?
I guess you will just have to wait less than a second after your last breath to fully realize the error of your ways.
Hopefully, you will wake up before that.
[quote]Matthew 7:15-20
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Proverbs 1:22
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 25:14
Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.
Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Proverbs 11:9
An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
2 Timothy 3:3-5
3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God? 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.[/quote]
I think that’s interesting that you can quote so much scripture. Yet, you are blinded to its meaning and the way to get to Heaven.
Not unlike the Pharisees.
In a way you remind me of your father the devil who threw scripture at Jesus Christ when Christ was being tempted in the desert.
The enemy knows the word of God…he just does not follow it!
But keep reading doogie…it might start to sink in. You might actually get something out of the scripture. It’s more than a tool to try to win a debate.
It’s the word of God!
You do your fathers work well doogie!
But according to the the truth it is YOU who will burn in Hell for not just not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord, but actually mocking God.
Here it is again as a reminder:
[b]Galatians 6:7:
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[/b]
Mocking God as you have been doing for the past several posts not only points out your immaturity (which is the least of your worries). But it also places you in a very very bad postion eternally!
If you had actually read that great work and absorbed it you would know exactly what it says about accepting Jesus Christ and you would also know exactly how many times Jesus mentioned Hell!
It is a real place!
Wake up doogie!
[quote]1 John 4:7,8
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[/quote]
Yes, very good passage.
But tell the complete story!
How does one actually get to that love?
John 14:5,6,7:
Thomas said to him “Lord we don’t know where you are going so how can we know the way?”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. If you really knew me you would know my Father as well. From now on you do know him and have seen him!”
That is so clear that an 8 year old could understand it.
[quote]1 John 4:20, 21
20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.[/quote]
I love that passage.
It clearly states that we should love, not hate.
Take a good look at that passage the next time that you launch into one of your hate threads with name calling and personal attacks.
You have a real blind spot when it comes to Christianity. And that alone would be okay as people change. But when you attack others for being Christian and then attempt to actually twist scripture to try to dismantle that persons faith…
Well…that’s pretty detestable!
I’ll leave another scripture for you to contemplate:
[b]2Timothy 3:16:
“All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching rebuking, correcting and trasining in righteousness.”[/b]
It says ALL SCRITURE.
That means that you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe and what you don’t want to believe. You must accept it all or reject it all!
There is no fence walking on this one doogie! You either believe that it is all from God or none of it is from God.
Mindlessly quoting scripture as you have done does not get you any close to the truth. The Pharisees did that. They had Jesus Christ walking among them and they refused to accept him as Lord and savior!
Will you make that same mistake and refuse to accept Christ as your savior?
