Homophobia

Whatever the reason, it’s an old one…

http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_06_08-2008_06_14.shtml#1213136604

[i]Bad:

The surprising likely origin of the word “bad” – “effeminate man.” From the Oxford English dictionary (OE = Old English, ME = Middle English):

The Random House and Webster’s Revised Unabridged echo this; the Online Etymology Dictionary suggests that bæddel and bædling also meant “pederast.”

Thanks to Language Log ( Language Log ) for the pointer. Naturally, I do not mean to imply that I agree with the thinking reflected in the etymology, much like I don’t think that Slavs are naturally slaves. I just thought it interesting that such a simple, foundational-seeming term as “bad” appears to stem from attitudes about sex roles.[/i]

[quote]lixy wrote:
I don’t give a damn about genetic links. For all we know, there’s a genetic link for alcoholics, murderers, fatties and child molesters. My natural instinct tells me to stick it in anything with a pulse. It tells me to eat junk food.

Whether you choose to repress it or not, is nobody’s choice but yours. If we were all to act based on our instincts, the world would go to shit.

So I repeat: “You choose where to stick your cock”. It does not matter if you have a gene somewhere that make you more attracted to the same sex as yours. You still CHOOSE to fulfill it (no pun intended).

Clear?[/quote]

It’s proven that aggression is determined by a genetic link, but murderers are formed by society. I find that most people in law enforcement are naturally aggressive too, but they’ve channeled that aggression into something positive.

Most fat people use food as a comfort device. This has been discussed to death on T-Nation.

Child molesters have a history of sexual abuse, usually starting from an early age.

A lot of gay people say they knew they were gay from early on. This to me implies a natural instinct toward finding the same sex attractive. I’ve also read that homosexual behavior exists in a biological sense because of some shit about hunting males (who were also breeding stock) were also short lived. The gay ones would (hypothetically) stay with the women and defend them while the other (heterosexual) males were hunting. I’ll try dig up the link.

I’ll also state I do choose where to stick my cock, but I have to say, I’ve never had the urge to stick it in another mans ass. Personally, I find balls and a hairy ass pretty repulsive. And has it occurred to you that gay people just don’t find the opposite sex attractive?

W/r/t the causes of homosexuality (particularly male homsexuality), I’m reposting this, which I have posted a few times previously - it’s a few years old (2005), but I haven’t read anything that makes me call the conclusion into question:

http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire200502160748.asp

EXCERPT:

[i]What causes homosexuality?

In the first place, the main point I was making was not about homosexuality, but about current attitudes, and the metaphysics that underlies them. Whether homosexuals are indeed “born that way” is one question; whether it is “taken for granted” in modern society that they are is a separate and independent question. Either could be true without the other’s being true. That the second is true seems to me too obvious to be worth arguing. Even the Roman Catholic Church, while condemning homosexual acts as sinful, concedes that the predilection to such acts may be inborn, in which case homosexuals “are called to chastity.” (Article 2359 of the current Catechism.)

Leaving that aside, what are the causes of homosexuality �?? the predilection, not the acts (which I assume to be caused by free will prompted by the predilection)? I can list a baker’s dozen of theories that I have heard or seen written up at one time or another. In very approximate order of scientific respectability, as best I can judge it, the theories are:

(1) Satan. Homosexuality may be a manifestation of Satan’s work. While the least scientific of current theories, this one is probably the most widely believed, taking the world at large. Most devout Muslims, for example, believe it, and so do many Christians.

(2) Social Construction. There is no such thing as homosexuality. There are only heterosexual and homosexual acts, which different cultures regard differently. The notion of “homosexuality” as a personality attribute is a 19th-century invention.

(3) Brain damage. Some insult to the tissues of the brain, perhaps at birth or in infancy, causes homosexuality.

(4) Choice. People choose to prefer their own sex over the other.

(5) Family influences in childhood. The Freudian belief is that having a weak father and/or dominant mother can form the child’s personality in the direction of homosexuality.

(6) Social stress. Rats kept in overpopulated environments, even when sufficient food and access to females are available, will become aggressively homosexual after the stress in the environment rises above a certain level.

(7) Imprinting. The individual’s early sexual history can “imprint” certain tendencies on animals and humans. Many homosexuals report having been same-sexually molested in childhood or youth.

(8) Socialization theories. The high levels of homosexual bonding in some ancient and primitive societies suggests that the common mores of a culture have some power to socialize large numbers of people into homosexuality.

(9) Genetics, direct. Homosexuality is the expression of some gene, or some combination of genes.

(10) Womb environment - too much of a good thing. The presence of certain hormone imbalances during critical periods of gestation can have the effect of hyper-masculinizing the brain of a male infant. Paradoxically - there are plausible biological arguments - this might lead to the infant becoming homosexual.

(11) Infection. Homosexuality may be caused by an infectious agent - a germ or a virus. This is the Cochran/Ewald theory, which made a cover story for the February 1999 Atlantic Monthly.

(12) Genetics, indirect. Homosexuality may be an undesirable (from the evolutionary point of view) side effect of some genetic defense against a disease - analogous to the sickle-cell anemia mutation, a by-product of genetic defenses against malaria, negative to the organism but nothing like as negative, net-net, as susceptibility to malaria.

(13) Womb environment - too much of the wrong thing. Here the effect of the rogue hormones is to feminize the brain of a male infant. (I assume that there are theories corresponding to 10 and 13 for female infants, though I have never seen them documented.)

Note that theories number 9, 10, 12, 13, and conditionally (depending on the age at injury or infection) 3 and 11, could all be taken as saying that homosexuality is “inborn,” while only two of these six theories have anything to do with genetics. The confusion between “genetic” and “inborn” is epidemic among the general public, however, to the despair of science writers. To readers suffering from that confusion - an actual majority of those who wrote to me suffer from it - I recommend the purchase of a good dictionary.

Which is it?

Which of these theories is true? In the current state of our understanding, I don’t believe that anyone can say for sure. From what I have seen of the scientific literature, I should say that numbers 12 and 13 currently hold the strongest positions, with much, though I think declining, interest and research in 9 and 10, modest but growing interest in 11, and some lingering residual attachment to 6, 7, and 8. The other theories are not taken seriously by anyone doing genuine science, so far as I know. If anyone has information to the contrary, I should be interested to look at it - though I should only be interested in research written up in a respectable peer-reviewed journal of the human sciences.

My own favorite is the infection theory, number 11. I favor it because it seems to me to be the most parsimonious - always a good reason for favoring a scientific theory. Until an actual agent of infection can be identified, however, the infection theory must remain speculative and the evidence circumstantial.[/i]

Personally I think it’s 13 - particularly given all of the research on T-levels in the womb relating to ring-finger length in relation to index-finger length*, which generally indicates athleticism and competitiveness.

*Corrected

I’ve heard number 10 a lot. Something about androgen exposure in the womb.

Apparently there’s also a link between the ratio of the index finger and middle finger and some malarky that indicates whether a person may be gay or not.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
I don’t give a damn about genetic links. For all we know, there’s a genetic link for alcoholics, murderers, fatties and child molesters. My natural instinct tells me to stick it in anything with a pulse. It tells me to eat junk food.

Whether you choose to repress it or not, is nobody’s choice but yours. If we were all to act based on our instincts, the world would go to shit.

So I repeat: “You choose where to stick your cock”. It does not matter if you have a gene somewhere that make you more attracted to the same sex as yours. You still CHOOSE to fulfill it (no pun intended).

Clear?

It’s proven that aggression is determined by a genetic link, but murderers are formed by society. I find that most people in law enforcement are naturally aggressive too, but they’ve channeled that aggression into something positive.

Most fat people use food as a comfort device. This has been discussed to death on T-Nation.

Child molesters have a history of sexual abuse, usually starting from an early age.

A lot of gay people say they knew they were gay from early on. This to me implies a natural instinct toward finding the same sex attractive. I’ve also read that homosexual behavior exists in a biological sense because of some shit about hunting males (who were also breeding stock) were also short lived. The gay ones would (hypothetically) stay with the women and defend them while the other (heterosexual) males were hunting. I’ll try dig up the link.

I’ll also state I do choose where to stick my cock, but I have to say, I’ve never had the urge to stick it in another mans ass. Personally, I find balls and a hairy ass pretty repulsive. And has it occurred to you that gay people just don’t find the opposite sex attractive?[/quote]

Look, I have gotten beat up because I defended a bunch of homosexuals. I have no problem with them doing what they do behind closed doors and when consent is present. But to me, making the analogy between sexuality and race is complete BS. Look at it however you want, you won’t be able to convince that there is no personal responsibility in letting a man stick his cock up your pooper.

I just can’t tolerate crap that trivializes racism and that is what I originally argued. Nothing more, nothing less.

[quote]makkun wrote:
Nothing wrong with jokes - and some ‘you got teh ghey’ comments are quite funny. The best jokes tend to be un-PC, and that’s cool IMO. It’s the hatred (normally caused by fear, hence the term) that sometimes comes up that bothers me.

905Patrick wrote:

I respectfully disagree here. I think the jokes do harm.

Not a moral equivalent but something I think is similar is the use of the N-word REGARDLESS of who uses it.

Gay jokes (and using the N-word) are a pejorative
because being gay is stigmatized and because of the derogatory history of the N-word.[/quote]

Are you perchance from Canada? Just checking…

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1213126113.shtml

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Franck wrote:
I don’t believe sexual orientation is a matter of choice. I’m no hetero by choice! If it was just a matter of choice there wouldn’t be homos in countries like Iran…
It’s not like one day you wake up and think “Oh yeah I feel so gay today! Let’s be a homo!”

I do believe most anti gay guys are themselves insecure about their own sexual identity so they feel threaten by gay people, they’re afraid to get teh ghey.

I’d say you’re right. It’s not like my parents ever told me to like breasts and pussy, I just do. It’s innate. The same probably holds true for homosexuals.[/quote]

Probably many anti-gays are that way because of their instincts. They know that a man is supposed to be a father. The first rule of life is to create more life — why we have 6 billions on this planet.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
905Patrick wrote:

I respectfully disagree here. I think the jokes do harm.

Not a moral equivalent but something I think is similar is the use of the N-word REGARDLESS of who uses it.

Gay jokes (and using the N-word) are a pejorative
because being gay is stigmatized and because of the derogatory history of the N-word.

Are you perchance from Canada? Just checking…

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1213126113.shtml[/quote]

Born in Ireland and now living in Canada.

Interesting link. I’m never surprised when I read about groups like “The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc.” casting judgement on others.

[quote]lixy wrote:
I just can’t tolerate crap that trivializes racism and that is what I originally argued. Nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]

I think my comment brought you into this so I feel the need to say that I admitted it wasn’t a moral equivalent. I used the n-word and gay jokes as indicators of hate, or things that had a legacy of hate.

To imply that being white and being gay are the same thing would be disingenuous.

It may have been better to draw a comparison to someone being Christian (or Muslim or Buddhist) and being gay because at least at some level, to behave Christian and behave gay are choices; although I feel there is less choice in being gay vs. religious.

The problem with gays is they are always in the public’s face. Look at the parades they have with all the freaks and weirdos. That is what people object to mnore than anything. They want to shout from the mountain tops that they are gay.

You don’t see heterosexual parades with all kinds of weird costumes and barely dressed people.

And let’s face it - heterosexual men just can’t comprehend how a guy can prefer a hairy rear end over someone like Eva Longoria for instance. There is something “bad wrong” about that.

[quote]bald eagle wrote:

You don’t see heterosexual parades with all kinds of weird costumes and barely dressed people.
[/quote]

Mardi Gras

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Franck wrote:
I don’t believe sexual orientation is a matter of choice. I’m no hetero by choice! If it was just a matter of choice there wouldn’t be homos in countries like Iran…
It’s not like one day you wake up and think “Oh yeah I feel so gay today! Let’s be a homo!”

I do believe most anti gay guys are themselves insecure about their own sexual identity so they feel threaten by gay people, they’re afraid to get teh ghey.

I’d say you’re right. It’s not like my parents ever told me to like breasts and pussy, I just do. It’s innate. The same probably holds true for homosexuals.

Probably many anti-gays are that way because of their instincts. They know that a man is supposed to be a father. The first rule of life is to create more life — why we have 6 billions on this planet.

[/quote]

Either they have instincts or they know something.

That they know something because of their instincts is hardly possible, what is possible is making rational sounding excuses for your instincts.

It is called rationalization.

[quote]

905Patrick wrote:

I respectfully disagree here. I think the jokes do harm.

Not a moral equivalent but something I think is similar is the use of the N-word REGARDLESS of who uses it.

Gay jokes (and using the N-word) are a pejorative
because being gay is stigmatized and because of the derogatory history of the N-word.

BostonBarrister wrote:
Are you perchance from Canada? Just checking…

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1213126113.shtml

905Patrick wrote:
Born in Ireland and now living in Canada.

Interesting link. I’m never surprised when I read about groups like “The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc.” casting judgement on others.[/quote]

I was more concerned with the shocking lack of respect for free-speech rights by the government and the judge myself.

Though again, not surprising for Canada with its hate-speech tribunals… For another example, see: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/canada’s-human-rights-kangaroo-court/

ADDENDUM: And another take: GAGGED IN CANADA

And another example of viewpoint-based speech restriction: Richard Warman Sues People For Libel For Calling Him A Censor | Popehat

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I was more concerned with the shocking lack of respect for free-speech rights by the government and the judge myself.

Though again, not surprising for Canada with its hate-speech tribunals… For another example, see: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/canada’s-human-rights-kangaroo-court/

ADDENDUM: And another take: GAGGED IN CANADA

And another example of viewpoint-based speech restriction: http://www.popehat.com/2007/11/27/calling-the-censor-a-censor-gets-you-in-trouble-in-canada/[/quote]

That’s fair. Free speech has taken a beating recently.

I don’t agree that people have the right to say whatever they want, but Steyn’s article isn’t what I would consider hate speech.

I think it will all work out in the wash, although it may take a few decades. Compromise is achieved when two extreme positions are pitted against each other and the moderates are able to see just how mindless the whole thing is.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
lucasa wrote:

To the OP: The reason for homophobia in our society today is to serve as pseudo-intellectual trump card for those seeking social validation for their feelings. No one suffers from homophobia, there’s no therapy for homophobia, there’s no evidence that heterosexuals are any more homophobic than homosexuals (self-hatred would be a good reason to be in the closet). People don’t want to accept that there may be legitimate reasons not to openly embrace and socially encourage homosexuality so they pass their views off as tolerant and label everyone else as bigoted homophobes.

Too bad that, in reality, there aren’t legitimate reasons not to. [/quote]

To the OP:

See?

First post…lurked for a long time, but this is an interesting topic.

There are many social situation where hetero individuals put their sexuality in everyone’s face…clubs, Madri Gras (already mentioned by another poster), even in the mall. I think most people don’t really notice or care because it’s seen as normal.

I’ve always subscribed to George Carlin’s take on discrimination…“Why hate people based on generalities (race, sexual orientation, etc.) when there are so many good reasons to dislike people on an indvidual basis.”

[quote]orion wrote:

circular reasoning

and not an issue at 6 billion and counting. Given that number being gay might be pro-surviving of our species, ergo good, using your definition.[/quote]

and

[quote]A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding ideology.

The origin of the word bigot and bigoterie in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of “religious hypocrite”, especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

You’re welcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry[/quote]

It’s so sad that in two posts your only truly cogent thought was copied whole cloth from Wikipedia.

It seems to me that homosexuality would be tolerated by moving to Colorado and flying the flag at half-staff. Maybe I missed the part where he proposed the elimination of homosexuality.

When you’re through writing the Wikipedia entry for ‘pro-surviving’, maybe we can have a more intelligent debate.

[quote]cdrk9 wrote:
First post…lurked for a long time, but this is an interesting topic.

There are many social situation where hetero individuals put their sexuality in everyone’s face…clubs, Madri Gras (already mentioned by another poster), even in the mall. I think most people don’t really notice or care because it’s seen as normal.
[/quote]

Girls gone Wild.

Why must gay people suffer this display of blatant heterosexual sexuality?

[quote]bald eagle wrote:
The problem with gays is they are always in the public’s face. Look at the parades they have with all the freaks and weirdos. That is what people object to mnore than anything. They want to shout from the mountain tops that they are gay.

You don’t see heterosexual parades with all kinds of weird costumes and barely dressed people.

And let’s face it - heterosexual men just can’t comprehend how a guy can prefer a hairy rear end over someone like Eva Longoria for instance. There is something “bad wrong” about that.[/quote]

Absolutely. Excellent post!

[quote]orion wrote:

Girls gone Wild.

Why must gay people suffer this display of blatant heterosexual sexuality?[/quote]

1.) If you actually watched the commercials, lesbianism is the predominant intercourse theme.

2.) The only time I see these commercials on TV here in the Midwest US is at 1 am. They are banned from airing during the day and on public stations.

3.) Often they are preceded or followed by a gay-only 1-900 commercial.