I am having visions of this discussion having gone nowhere weeks from now and will now bid this thread a very civil adieu. All I can say is that history will eventually bare the truth in these matters. I come here to hang around with other people who workout and I’m going back to that. If we could talk in person I’d be more than happy to continue, but there are only so many hours in the day for typing into forum dialogs.
I am on page three and this is getting more and more interesting. For the pissing match to consider…is relative skin color a different “race” define race for me. Is there such a a thing, a scientific classification for race?
Color terminology for race - Wikipedia is an interesting link
For that matter, where is the generally accepted definition of racism? not personal definition. I am interested in personal perception and am not minimizing that in the least.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
…and Keyes would brutally maul Obama in a debate.
Obama beat Keyes for Illinois senate.
[/quote]
Winning a debate is subjective. Agree with a person and, for you, they have won.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.
I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.[/quote]
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. We haven’t had a black president yet (why capitalize still and ever? baiting to distract btw.)
How would equality be reached? for the next 43 presidents to be of darker skin? And then when the women whine the next 43 have to be women? Then Asian men get to whine? Then homosexuals?
Isn’t equality referring to opportunity?
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.
I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. We haven’t had a black president yet (why capitalize still and ever? baiting to distract btw.)
How would equality be reached? for the next 43 presidents to be of darker skin? And then when the women whine the next 43 have to be women? Then Asian men get to whine? Then homosexuals?
Isn’t equality referring to opportunity? [/quote]
How have you proven “opportunity” if there has never been one person of any other race or sex who has been president?
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
…and Keyes would brutally maul Obama in a debate.
Obama beat Keyes for Illinois senate.
Winning a debate is subjective. Agree with a person and, for you, they have won. [/quote]
Exactly. I guess not enough people AGREE with Keyes.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.
I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. We haven’t had a black president yet (why capitalize still and ever? baiting to distract btw.)
How would equality be reached? for the next 43 presidents to be of darker skin? And then when the women whine the next 43 have to be women? Then Asian men get to whine? Then homosexuals?
Isn’t equality referring to opportunity?
How have you proven “opportunity” if there has never been one person of any other race or sex who has been president?
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
[/quote]
How many blacks have actually ran for president, or at least tried? The USA is majority white thus leaving more potential candidates to be white. When voting I don’t consider race or sexuality an issue, I will vote for who I think is the best candidate, the candidate that supports my views and beliefs. Everyone has the same opportunities, the motivated individuals will take those opportunities, and statistically speaking the majority of the opportunity seakers are white whether it be due to more white people, or people just being more motivated. Just to clarify, I’m talking present day America.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.
I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. We haven’t had a black president yet (why capitalize still and ever? baiting to distract btw.)
How would equality be reached? for the next 43 presidents to be of darker skin? And then when the women whine the next 43 have to be women? Then Asian men get to whine? Then homosexuals?
Isn’t equality referring to opportunity?
How have you proven “opportunity” if there has never been one person of any other race or sex who has been president?
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
How many blacks have actually ran for president, or at least tried? The USA is majority white thus leaving more potential candidates to be white. When voting I don’t consider race or sexuality an issue, I will vote for who I think is the best candidate, the candidate that supports my views and beliefs. Everyone has the same opportunities, the motivated individuals will take those opportunities, and statistically speaking the majority of the opportunity seakers are white whether it be due to more white people, or people just being more motivated. Just to clarify, I’m talking present day America.
[/quote]
The question again was, “[quote]How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?[/quote]”
I had several posters here ask me where proof was of systemic racism. If we base what we believe on undeniable evidence, then please tell me where the proof is. Any other position is hypocrisy, isn’t it?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
austin_bicep wrote:
Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, yes, and now that 2008 is here, we STILL have not had a black president EVER yet you seem to think we have reached full equality.
I know that things have changed for the better over the last few decades and am very glad they have. There are still improvements that need to be made yet you seem to believe otherwise.
I don’t follow this line of reasoning. We haven’t had a black president yet (why capitalize still and ever? baiting to distract btw.)
How would equality be reached? for the next 43 presidents to be of darker skin? And then when the women whine the next 43 have to be women? Then Asian men get to whine? Then homosexuals?
Isn’t equality referring to opportunity?
How have you proven “opportunity” if there has never been one person of any other race or sex who has been president?
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
How many blacks have actually ran for president, or at least tried? The USA is majority white thus leaving more potential candidates to be white. When voting I don’t consider race or sexuality an issue, I will vote for who I think is the best candidate, the candidate that supports my views and beliefs. Everyone has the same opportunities, the motivated individuals will take those opportunities, and statistically speaking the majority of the opportunity seakers are white whether it be due to more white people, or people just being more motivated. Just to clarify, I’m talking present day America.
The question again was, “How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?”
I had several posters here ask me where proof was of systemic racism. If we base what we believe on undeniable evidence, then please tell me where the proof is. Any other position is hypocrisy, isn’t it?
[/quote]
I guess I wasn’t addressing the question, just stating my opinion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Skuebb wrote:
Bill Cosby has been saying much the same stuff for a few years now, and he gets crucified in the media for it. He certainly recognizes the existence of racism, on the individual level, and the system level.
He just believes that the best answer is not to dwell on it, and as Professoor X has said, go out and outwork the competition. Some of that is going to require family structure and discipline that oftern seems lacking, even in poorer white households.
However, without family structure or discipline, how could that possibly happen? I had guidance. I had my grandmother and two parents who tried extremely hard (and dealt with so much prejudice growing up that most here wouldn’t have made it through…they actually had to deal with “whites only” and “coloreds only” drinking fountains). I was told that there was racism and that I had to be prepared for it.
I was taught that I would have to be the better candidate just to be seen as equal. My parents were right. There is no way I could have just been “as good as” and made it to this point in my life. It is one thing to “dwell on it” as you put it, and quite another to recognize it, be prepared for it, and be raised to overcome it.
I think any kid who is a minority being taught that racism is not a factor at all will be ill prepared. The ones being taught they can’t succeed because of it are in the same danger.
As far as Bill Cosby, he gets “crucified” because he does not speak for me. The man speaks as if he is completely disconnected from today’s minority youth. Some of you may want to let the air out of your heads if you truly believe your perspective is so superior to an entire race of people in majority.
If someone wants to know what I think, they shouldn’t ask Cosby.
They shouldn’t ask Sharpton.
They shouldn’t ask Jesse Jackson.
What I would like to know is who the fuck is the “white peoples’ spokesperson”? Who do we turn to in order to represent what most white people think?
If you don’t have one, then quit being little turds and looking for one that represents me or any other minority.[/quote]
I’m sure Cosby is seen as totally disconnected. He’s probably 70 years old. I wouldn’t suggest he speaks FOR today’s youth. I think he’s speaking TO them. And he’s saying the same stuff Grandma and your parents said. If there were widespread acceptance of his position, instead of an effort to marginalize him, I think black youth would be better off. No, he’s not the official spokeperson. He is a person in a potential leadership role.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
[/quote]
I can see your point, but isn’t Obama leading the primary and being the candidate for the left point to an equal opportunity? Well, he isn’t purely a leftie, moreso a socialist, but he is going to have his name on the ballot.
absence of evidence, (no proof of a compromised opportunity) is not evidence of absence (that the opportunity doesn’t exist.
I guess the problem is with majority rules.
Heard someone say, and I am pretty sure he didn’t realize what he said…"the problem with minorities is that there aint enough of 'em.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How does your own “line of reasoning” arrive at the conclusion that “equal opportunity” has been achieved when there is no evidence of it in the area we are discussing?
I can see your point, but isn’t Obama leading the primary and being the candidate for the left point to an equal opportunity? Well, he isn’t purely a leftie, moreso a socialist, but he is going to have his name on the ballot.
absence of evidence, (no proof of a compromised opportunity) is not evidence of absence (that the opportunity doesn’t exist.
I guess the problem is with majority rules.
Heard someone say, and I am pretty sure he didn’t realize what he said…"the problem with minorities is that there aint enough of 'em. [/quote]
If proof is needed for whites to be able to understand systemic racism, then proof should be needed to see “equal opportunity” in the position of President. Until there are blacks and women who have been president, you can’t make some claim as if all races and both sexes are all seen as equal in the run for that position.
In fact, I really can’t believe people think we have arrived at that point yet. If it weren’t for programs like Affirmative Action, we would be decades behind where we even are now.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
In fact, I really can’t believe people think we have arrived at that point yet. If it weren’t for programs like Affirmative Action, we would be decades behind where we even are now.[/quote]
If it weren’t for LBJ and the “Great Society” bullshit - there probably would have already been a black President.
Him and MLK were the very worst possible things that could have happened to the black movement - particularly to the black male - in this country.