John- In the Lee study, when were the other values of R taken for comparison purposes to the 2-hour-post-exercise value? Also, are you saying that the only calories burned post exercise are those that correlate with EPOC? 73 calories (thats the number based on the 5kcal/L conversion) over a two hour peroid doens’t seem like a great deal of benefit for the given exercise session. I’m just trying to get a better understanding…
Some other thoughts of mine on the subject.
I have only had significant success when my intensity has been high and for longer periods of time. I need at least 20 min of activity to feel like I have made a significant dent. I use a combination of HIIT and other slower interval programs to acheive the desired benefit.
3) EDT works great for cardio also. Set a time period (20-30) minutes and log how many calories you burn on the machine during that time. Each workout, you'll have to increase the intensity just a bit to burn more calories.
4) Shorter protocols like the Tabata protocol are great in many situations. Unless you are really lean and need just an added kick to the metabolism, I still think that longer cardio sessions are warranted in many cases. The Tabata protocol could be a great way to finish off a lifting workout when you don't want to spend 20-30 minutes more in the gym. Use the longer interval sessions on off days.
5) Both calories burned during and after exercise are important. I think it is foolish to disregard either one. The key is to find the best intensity in a 15-30 minute window that maximizes both calories burned during and after exercise. The only way to do this is with HIIT.
That's it for now. I've got a ton of stuff floating in my head and I'll post more later.
Wow, this thread is getting huge. It’s a good discussion though.
Jason - Thanks for the suggestion for the Appetite Column. I think I may address the issue of PW nutrition for the activity in the near future.
Joel - Thanks for the wrist slap (i.e. the oxygen cost numbers) :-) Yep, the cost of 1L of O2 is between 4.7 (fat) - 5.05 (carb). I dont know what I was thinking using the 3.5 conversion. Perhaps I was doing VO2 to METS or something crazy like that. I dont post with text book in hand (no time for that) so I usually just site numbers and articles off the top of my head. And as you can see, sometimes I make mistakes.
One other point of clarity. Vmax does not refer to VO2 max. Vmax is the max velocity at VO2 max. This can easily be approximated easily at your gym by doing an incremental test to failure (on TM that's starting at 7.5mph (0grade) and increasing grade by 1% per minute).
As far as the 20:10, I have personally tried the workout. I've been seriously, methodically training for 10 years with no unplanned rest periods therefore I've tried everything. And that program SUCKS (i.e. it's hard and fatiguing). There is no doubt it's tough, but while I can think of alot of tough programs that make me puke, that cant be the goal of training. My point was that although the 4min may suck badly, I still dont feel like 4 min of exercise (leaving the remaining 23hours and 56minutes for sedentary activities) may be enough. Basically my argument is summarized by Jason in his post (item #1).
Finally, here's the Lee abstract:
The effects of various intensities and durations of exercise with and without glucose in milk ingestion on postexercise oxygen consumption.
Lee YS, Ha MS, Lee YJ.
Department of Exercise Science, Se Jong University, Seul, Korea.
BACKGROUND: The purpose of this study was to compare the 2-hr excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), respiratory exchange ratio (RER), and rectal temperature (RT) after four-exercise bouts of varying intensity and duration, with and without glucose in milk (GM) ingestion. METHODS: Experimental design: subjects completed the exercise tests in random order 4 times on the same weekday. The four experimental exercise conditions were low intensity, long duration with GM (LL & GM), low intensity, long duration without GM (LL & NGM), high intensity, short duration with GM (HS & GM), and high intensity, short duration without GM (HS & NGM). Participants: ten male college students (20.8 +/- 0.6) yrs participated voluntarily. Measures. Two-way repeated measures ANOVA (exercise condition x time) was used to compare the variables. RESULTS: Mean EPOC for the 2-hr postexercise period for HS & GM (211.5 ml O2/kg) was significantly greater than EPOC for HS & NGM (154.8 ml O2/kg), LL & GM (140.4 ml O2/kg) and LL & NGM (125.2 ml O2/kg). Mean recovery oxygen uptakes were 6.4, 5.7, 4.5, and 4.2 ml/min/kg with HS & GM, HS & NGM, LL & GM and LL & NGM, respectively. Mean RERs for high intensity exercises were significantly lower than RERs for low intensity exercises during the recovery period. Mean RT for HS & GM (37.60 degrees C) and HS & NGM (37.43 degrees C) were significantly higher than RT for LL & GM (37.19 degrees C) and LL & NGM (37.15 degrees C) during the recovery period. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that preexercise intake of GM increases EPOC above that observed in the fasting condition, and high intensity short duration exercise increases fat oxidation during recovery period more than low intensity long duration exercise.
you guys realize that real sprinting is a total body blitzkrieg incorporating all muscles of the legs, abdominals, and shoulder area. It taxes your neural system in a devastating way. If I’m correct the Tabata training was done on a stationary bike which only works half the body. I would not suggest you use sprinting in this fashion even with the 1:3 principal. How come sprinters don’t train like that? Because it does not allow them enough time to recoup in order to sprint with proper form. Sprinting means running at near maximum intensity. Don’t even call it a sprint if your times drop below that level. And the longer the distance the worst yours times will get because of the more energy expenditure. Now i’m not saying sprinting is not awesome for losing fat. I just think in the manner you prescribe it’s just not practicle. Most people are not even trained enough to run a 40 meter sprint and you guys are talking about running 200 meter sprints and then resting for 15 seconds or 90 seconds. Wow! laters pk
I’ve expressed my views; everyone enjoy the rest of the thread.
-Joel Marion
Well guys, it’s been enlightening. Id like to thank Joel and Jason for some good posting. Im back to the lab tomorrow (I had 2 weeks off) so Im out of this thread also.
-JB
Had to bring this thread back up for another question: Whether doing a 14 minute, 1:1 HIIT session like Joel M.'s or a 30 minute, 1:3 ratio session like Berardi’s, I have had to walk in between sprints towards the middle and ending sets (I started with Joel’s protocol last week and have since switched to Berardi’s). I guess I am not conditioned well enough to sprint and then jog the whole time…I am trying to work up to it, but in the meantime, am I missing out on a lot of the benefits of HIIT by walking during my rest periods?
The most important part of interval training is the sprint. Keep the sprint intensity high all the time. As you increase both your aerobic and anaerobic capacity, you will be able to increase the intensity up to a jog or something similar during the low intensity portion of an interval session.
Just pondered a question to myself: if HIIT targets and burns sufficient amounts of subcananeous bodyfat, up to 9 times better than other methods of cardio, then wouldn’t it make sense that “MAYBE” you could take in more carbs and your glycogen storage MAY be left alone ???