== Scott==
I’m thinking 30 10 30 does dig a deeper inroad than a set to failure as several times I tried to do another regular rep after the 30 10 30 and I could barely budge the bar and after a set of 10 to failure I could do half a rep. I can’t explain it but somehow the 3010 30 digs deeper into the muscle but doesn’t dig as deep into your recovery ability as a too failure set would ! The big question is , how does it work?? It seems to good to be true!
This may seem crazy but I’m thinking the problem for some of us old farts who have killed ourselves with too failure sets for so many years are having a hard time realizing with this 30 10 30 we don’t have to kill ourselves every set. We are done with that exercise . When I get through with a set of 30 10 30 I’m still thinking in the back of my mind that I’ve got to do more sets. Not!!
Inroad refers how deep you cut into your starting level of strength
How would you differentiate between that and fatigue? Or are they the same thing with different names?
I am curious as to why metabolic conditioning fell off the list of Nautilus principles. After all Jones had famously trained Casey and Sergio with workouts at an intense pace. Then there was the study at West Point. Why then the shift away from that to focusing primarily on training to failure?. Was it because Jones wanted to appeal more to bodybuilders and he knew they, notwithstanding Casey & Sergio, would never embrace a fast paced workout that would result in using lighter weigts?
It seems like the term inroad became popular about the time of Renex. They always talked about inroad. To be honest I’ve always hated that term. I may be wrong but here’s a rough idea of how I see it. If a set of 10 reps with a specific weight caused say a 5 on the muscle damage by workout scale of 1–10 , then a deeper inroad caused by 30 10 30 might be a 6 on that scale of 1–10.
Scott
So inroading is muscle damage, as distinct from other fatigue?
Can someone who is experienced with the 30 10 30 method clarify the intensity. If I were to use it on the odd exercise, e.g standing press, should the load be such that you fail on the 10th rep and struggle to complete the last 30s negative?
Effects of three resistance training programs on muscular strength and absolute and relative endurance. T Anderson et al. Res Q Exerc Sport. 1982 Mar.
So inroading is muscle damage, as distinct from other fatigue?
== Scott==
I just used that as one way to describe how much you’ve worked the muscle.
This is a new interesting read about whether different loading give rise to better results (it doesn’t as long as you reach fatique or muscle failure - whatever that means today…). Even more interesting is the misinterpretation of the historic origin of 3 sets x 10 reps - which made the bodybuilding standard.
== Scott ==.
You should stop one or two reps short of failure and then do the last 30 second negative. I have yet to find I can’t finish the last 30 seconds but some people do have trouble doing that.
I could see that.
It’s almost analogous with regular speed reps…say doing a one rep max weight…compared to a set of 10 reps to failure (or close) that would likely cause more inroad or reduction in one’s starting strength. The 10 reps would likely give the muscle a better reason to grow. A one rep max, while using more weight, is likely not too stimulating.
I would get the metabolic challenge ebook if you don’t already have it, where this is explained in detail. In my understanding, 30% less than the maximum weight you can do before failing at 10 reps, and I would add reduce the weight even more if you find that weight bringing you to failure at any stage. After seriously hurting myself going too heavy and failing on both the reps and final negative, I would take this very seriously.
There was a guy who worked with Mentzer at the end and used to post on an HIT forum years back. According to this, Mike was considering or thinking of something just shy of failure on a routine closer to Heavy Duty I. He was seeing the issues with consolidated training. However, Mike felt like he boxed himself in with the failure stuff. This is all just hearsay though.
Because it is so hard! However, when acclimated to this training, no other will do! It takes time to adjust to this “rush factor.”
I too have been thinking about the WHY. I’ll have some comments soon.
[quote]Actually current research says not!
As long as fatigue/failure is attained, even light weights can get similar results as heavier weights. Just takes more reps/time.
Where is the genesis of his statement?[/quote]
No, not recruited, ‘stimulation’.
Failure terminates the set, it ‘caps’ the inroad of that set.
No, inroad is momentary strength deficit compared to starting strength.
The level of strength, at the moment, your muscles can generate. Inroad is the percentage of loss from fresh strength. If you fail using 80% of 1RM, then your strength at the moment is probably 79%, so roughly a 20% inroad.
Scientific or not, it’s just a word that describes acute strength deficit
Your not following it’s description? Have you read any of Darden’s older books?
If you can’t lift 80% of 1RM, obviously your strength is less than 80% at that moment right?
So if fatigue has lowered your strength to 79% and it’s failure, and you stop, that’s it, your done. You ended up with a momentary 21% strength deficit (inroad). "inroad into your starting strength’ in Darden’s words.
You can ask him to explain it more if you like or read some of his books.
Thanks for that.
I have read Dr D’s ‘Real Man Deltoids’ post and will give this a trial on the day I normally train deltoids:
- Overhead press with barbell, 30-10-30
- Lateral raise with dumbbells
- Overhead press with barbell, looser style
In this post, he suggests a 10-15% drop in load on your 10RM on the 1st exercise. I may start a bit lighter still - based on what you and Scott have recommended.