[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Too, you’re generalizing to all straight people everywhere when you talk about the difficulties faced by gays (here I’m using the term to represent all homosexuals), which is hypocrisy when at the same time you insist that people be treated as the individuals they are.
So its a hypocracy to observe widespread homophobia in our society?
You’re joking, right? [/quote]
No, it’s hypocrisy to be a hypocrite. When you (rightly) insist that what SOME gays do shouldn’t create hostility toward the whole group, but then say that what SOME heteros do (hate) should be attributed to the whole group (the “we” you say doesn’t support gays), that’s hypocrisy. Observing homophobia would be better described as…observing homophobia. But you knew that, right?
[quote] Identity politics are ultimately unworkable for anything more than the most surface of discussions. Don’t you see that you’re talking about the .01% of straights who carry signs that say “die fags,” while Mick is talking about the .01% of gays who french kiss in public?
ugh. Again, I give specific examples, and they are too specific.
Now, I’ll give a general example:
WHAT ABOUT THE 90% OF PEOPLE WHO USE THE TERM “FAG” AS AN INSULT OR USE THE WORD “GAY” DO DESCRIBE ANYTHING THEY DO NOT LIKE?
Oh wait. Thats a general example. Thats too general. That doesnt count either.
Right?[/quote]
You’re being sarcastic and shrill. It neither endears you to me nor predisposes me to agree with you. What 90% of people use “fag” as an insult? What kind of crazy number is that, could it be more obviously pulled out of your ass? Old people don’t say “fag,” women don’t say “fag,” and children don’t say “fag.” So we have males, under age…oh, let’s say 35, and over age 10. What percentage of the population is that? Not 90%.
Gay, is, as lucasa pointed out, a word with a history that predates its use to describe homosexuals. “Well, aren’t you feeling gay today!” might have been said to someone who seemed happy, frivolous, and a little bit oblivious. The word is used heavily in books like Anne of Green Gables, which describes the thoughts and activities of young girls. It also historically means bright and showy. So if I were to say to a friend “is it a little too gay?” about an outfit I’m thinking about getting, I’m not actually asking if it makes me look homosexual. I’m asking if it makes me look foolish, like I’m overly cheery and kind of clueless.
Gay also has pre-homosexual usage sexual connotations, it seems. From dictionary.com:
Gay has had various senses dealing with sexual conduct since the 17th century. A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay man a womanizer, a gay house a brothel.
[quote]And then, Emily, how would you react if someone was talking about that neighborhood and said “We really dont care about whites around here”, when you’ve observed that, in fact, they do have a problem with whites around there?
Would you, maybe, I dunno, argue that they were wrong and that “they” really “do” “care about” whites around there? [/quote]
I think that I’ll just be aware that there may be some animosity on the part of some of the people there and be accordingly cautious. I don’t see myself demanding that someone admit that they’re all a bunch of filthy white-haters. I particularly don’t see demanding it of someone who’s been friendly to me.
[quote]They both have anxiety over the specific action of telling their parents that they have become sexually active.
When those little straight kids get through that, and a few years later go to a dinner with their parents and some of their parents friends, do you think they’ll worry about the topic of their sexuality coming up?
Hmmm. I wonder.[/quote]
I hope the topic of MY sexuality never comes up at a dinner with my parents and their friends! “Did you hear that Emily has sex with men, Frank?”
Mick seems pretty resolutely heterosexual, but I can’t imagine he wouldn’t be uncomfortable with a similar conversation with his parents and their friends.
“Betty, it sounds like Mick is resolutely heterosexual.”
“Wilma, yes. Mick has always firmly preferred the girls. Oh! I said ‘firmly!’ Goodness! Anyway, I don’t think he’s ever been bi-curious. Have you, Mick?”
I mean, what are you thinking here, Capped?
[quote]Of course, I know…and you do, too, right?..that pregnant teens and gay kids coming out at home have in common that their parents are going to have to deal with shattered dreams on top of the sex issue. In both cases, futures are dramatically altered.
How many straight kids do you know who had their futures “dramatically altered” JUST FOR revealing that they were straight?
Not that they had sex.
Not that they were pregnant.
JUST that they were attracted to members of the opposite sex.[/quote]
The dramatic altering I’m speaking of is the awareness on a parent’s part that their beloved child is facing a future different from the one the parent had anticipated. Not the parents doing something punitive. That happens sometimes, but it’s not the norm. Parents have the same reaction (upset) when they discover that their child isn’t going to have children within a hetero relationship, as well, whether by choice or because of physical issues.
[quote]
Gays face the same problems even if they aren’t having sex, though.
“I like a boy” causes just as many “shattered dreams” as “I had sex with a boy.”
Now try to argue that a boy going home and saying “I like this girl…” could possibly have the same effects.
I really hope you dont think you can argue that as being true.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. I clarified above that the PARENTS’ dream of marriage and children for their child is shattered (causing the parents to react with upset, which in turn upsets the child coming out to them). That’s why I used pregnant girls as an analogy. Because it alters the child’s future and the parents are upset by that. Do you think parents are causing shattered dreams? If so, what sort?