Here is Some Free Trade

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

You are acting as we live in a Libertarian society already, and you are putting the market before the people. You must remember we are subsidizing Farming in Minnesota and other locations, Tobacco, Pharmaceuticals and the likes. Why not subsidize something that would benefit the nation rather than a few of the wealthiest and a few stock holders
[/quote]
The market isn’t some abstract black hole where money disappears. The market is the american people. The market provide the exchange of money for labor and goods to and from the people. What is good for the market is good for the people as a whole. We shouldn’t subsidize any industries outside national security purposes or in times of war. I don’t understand your comment about benefit of a few wealthy or a few stockholders. The gov’t shouldn’t provide any help to them either. The gov’t should stay out of the market all together.

It’s not fact. It is well reasoned theory. The only unemployement we should have is volentary unemployment. There is no reason able bodied people should not be able to find work in a free market. There is always demand for the new services and product and these require labor and investment.

I don’t want to have a say in how anyone else’s money is spent. Only my own. I realize our gov’t is handing out subsidies like candy. Adding to the list only makes things worse.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
The market isn’t some abstract black hole where money disappears. The market is the american people.
[/quote]
The market it is all people in all places. It is the “spontaneous actions of individuals, aiming at nothing else than at the improvement of their own state of satisfaction.”

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I agree the government got it wrong on changing corn to ethanol, but it is not a total waste. There are other ways to come up with alcohol for fuel.

No it isn’t but you must understand that there is always a cost involved in making any choice. Could that money have been directed at something else that may have been more efficient in the long run? Could the people who were forced to subsidize this program have used this money to a better end for themselves? What are the effects of these subsidies on the food industry? From an economic standpoint these are the considerations that must be made but from an ethical standpoint it is never right to steal from anyone to give to someone else.[/quote]

To solve problems some times trial and error are the best means, that is if you learn from your errors

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

I agree the government got it wrong on changing corn to ethanol, but it is not a total waste. There are other ways to come up with alcohol for fuel.

As far as gov’t action it was a total waste. They have mandated mass amounts of ethenol be mixed with gasoline. They are upping this amount dispite that fact that it has already done more harm than good. 30% of farm land is being converted to provide fuel all while banning the import of sugar based ethenol. This is subsidy for farmers thinly disguised as an energy policy.

As far as taking from the poor so the wealthy can remain rich, only an Idiot or a very wealthy person would want to live in those conditions.

Who wants to take money from the poor? I think what we are advocating is the right to keep the profit of your labor. What exactly is wrong with that?
[/quote]

It was in response to a lift maxumus post

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
To solve problems some times trial and error are the best means, that is if you learn from your errors
[/quote]

Or, what if, instead we allowed individuals to solve it for themselves? This makes the most sense both ethically and economically.

What business does government have deciding the best interests of individuals?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
To solve problems some times trial and error are the best means, that is if you learn from your errors

Or, what if, instead we allowed individuals to solve it for themselves? This makes the most sense both ethically and economically.

What business does government have deciding the best interests of individuals?[/quote]

I think laws are a good example of a process that has been there and done that. If the law sees you doing something that is a benefit to you and a detriment to every one else, their job is to stop you.
I wonder if you are describing even a libertarian society, you talk of the rich exploiting the poor as away to stay rich, Are you capable of not being exploited in a society like this

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You are acting as we live in a Libertarian society already, and you are putting the market before the people. You must remember we are subsidizing Farming in Minnesota and other locations, Tobacco, Pharmaceuticals and the likes. Why not subsidize something that would benefit the nation rather than a few of the wealthiest and a few stock holders

The market isn’t some abstract black hole where money disappears. The market is the american people. The market provide the exchange of money for labor and goods to and from the people. What is good for the market is good for the people as a whole. We shouldn’t subsidize any industries outside national security purposes or in times of war. I don’t understand your comment about benefit of a few wealthy or a few stockholders. The gov’t shouldn’t provide any help to them either. The gov’t should stay out of the market all together.

Where do you get that in a free market there will never be a shortage of work to do. That has to be one of biggest load of hooey any one has tried to pass for fact.

It’s not fact. It is well reasoned theory. The only unemployement we should have is volentary unemployment. There is no reason able bodied people should not be able to find work in a free market. There is always demand for the new services and product and these require labor and investment.

You act as though you really have a say in how your Grand Children�??s money is being spent, I hate to inform you our government is subsidizing things you and I would be pissed about.

I don’t want to have a say in how anyone else’s money is spent. Only my own. I realize our gov’t is handing out subsidies like candy. Adding to the list only makes things worse.
[/quote]

The market consists of two sides (supply) and (demand). On the demand side in America it is mostly made up of Americans but on the supply side I would think of all the things we consume it would be of other Nations, Third world countries and nameless Corporations and very little American products. I would think our only advantage in some markets in the lack of ability to transport the product such as labor. But with illegal immigration they are transporting in cheap labor, to drive prices down. We are truly a consumer nation that doesn�??t have the sense to be more self sufficient

Where do you get that in a free market that there would be no unemployment, maybe any unemployment benefits? Did you read the article on Lagos? I believe that is a free market.

As far as subsidies making things worse, I would agree in some occasions. In other it works to the benefit of every body

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The market consists of two sides (supply) and (demand). On the demand side in America it is mostly made up of Americans but on the supply side I would think of all the things we consume it would be of other Nations, Third world countries and nameless Corporations and very little American products. I would think our only advantage in some markets in the lack of ability to transport the product such as labor. But with illegal immigration they are transporting in cheap labor, to drive prices down. We are truly a consumer nation that doesnâ¿¿t have the sense to be more self sufficient
[/quote]
How can you include “Nations, Third world countries and nameless Corporations” in the supply side but not the demand side? No one can consume more than they can produce without going into debt. It does not matter how much we consume from outside sourses, all of the american dollars we spend to do so have to be spent on American goods or investments.

This is presisly why we have to employ our resouces in industries that better compete on the world market. We need to produce the goods and services with most value so we can consume more. Propping up marginal producers or industries only hurts the nation. I don’t know what else to tell you? You need to read some of the following:

Economics in One Lesson - Henry Haslitt
Free To Chose - Milton and Rose Friedman
The Bell Curve - Charles Murray
What it Means to be a Libertarian - Charles Murray

When do they benefit everybody? You will not find one.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think laws are a good example of a process that has been there and done that. If the law sees you doing something that is a benefit to you and a detriment to every one else, their job is to stop you.
I wonder if you are describing even a libertarian society, you talk of the rich exploiting the poor as away to stay rich, Are you capable of not being exploited in a society like this

[/quote]

The only laws are natural laws. None have a right to violate one’s person or property. Those are the only classifications of crime. Why do there need to be more laws?

In a free society the rich cannot exploit anyone without being hurt by it. The more free people there are the better off everyone is.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think laws are a good example of a process that has been there and done that. If the law sees you doing something that is a benefit to you and a detriment to every one else, their job is to stop you.
I wonder if you are describing even a libertarian society, you talk of the rich exploiting the poor as away to stay rich, Are you capable of not being exploited in a society like this

The only laws are natural laws. None have a right to violate one’s person or property. Those are the only classifications of crime. Why do there need to be more laws?

In a free society the rich cannot exploit anyone without being hurt by it. The more free people there are the better off everyone is.[/quote]

How?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
How?
[/quote]

Because consumers have all the power.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
How?

Because consumers have all the power.[/quote]

The consumer has only the power to purchase or not to purchase, how is that going to stop a wealthy person for exploiting a non wealthy person? How does this even make it in the interest of the wealthy person not to exploit the poor person?

And if the wealthy person were the type to exploit the poor person you would need more than just making it not in his interest to do so.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The consumer has only the power to purchase or not to purchase, how is that going to stop a wealthy person for exploiting a non wealthy person? How does this even make it in the interest of the wealthy person not to exploit the poor person?

And if the wealthy person were the type to exploit the poor person you would need more than just making it not in his interest to do so.[/quote]

I fail to see the connection between being wealthy and exploitation. I think this is just a red-herring.

One can only become wealthy by production or stealing. Stealing would subject that person to many threats of retaliation after so long. There is no such economic activity as exploitation.

Maybe what you mean to say is that a consumer is not getting the deal he wants but that has nothing to do with being poor or wealthy. Besides, this is nothing new in the market place. Producers always want to get the highest price and consumers always want to get the lowest price.

What exactly is exploitation in non-general terms to you? Since we have a working theory of moral exchange we already know that crimes against a person or his property are unacceptable; however, that is not exploitation.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
The market consists of two sides (supply) and (demand). On the demand side in America it is mostly made up of Americans but on the supply side I would think of all the things we consume it would be of other Nations, Third world countries and nameless Corporations and very little American products.

I would think our only advantage in some markets in the lack of ability to transport the product such as labor. But with illegal immigration they are transporting in cheap labor, to drive prices down. We are truly a consumer nation that doesnâ¿¿t have the sense to be more self sufficient

How can you include “Nations, Third world countries and nameless Corporations” in the supply side but not the demand side? No one can consume more than they can produce without going into debt.

It does not matter how much we consume from outside sourses, all of the american dollars we spend to do so have to be spent on American goods or investments.

This is presisly why we have to employ our resouces in industries that better compete on the world market. We need to produce the goods and services with most value so we can consume more.

Propping up marginal producers or industries only hurts the nation. I don’t know what else to tell you? You need to read some of the following:

Economics in One Lesson - Henry Haslitt
Free To Chose - Milton and Rose Friedman
The Bell Curve - Charles Murray
What it Means to be a Libertarian - Charles Murray

Where do you get that in a free market that there would be no unemployment, maybe any unemployment benefits? Did you read the article on Lagos? I believe that is a free market.

As far as subsidies making things worse, I would agree in some occasions. In other it works to the benefit of every body

When do they benefit everybody? You will not find one.
[/quote]

We subsidized the farmer, and it kept the cost of food low until recently. Lately with the ethanol situation and the corporate farm leaning how to beat the system gives even more reason to rethink our subsidy for the farms.

I think we should subsidize the small family farm, so we do not end up with being dependent on the large corporate farm.

I think subsidizing research and development for alternative energy is good. We may have to subsidize the industry to get it up and running, we may have to subsidize the petroleum industry to get more gasoline. I do not have all the answers and neither does the free market

An example of where a subsidy does harm is where to get a large store such as Home Depot into a certain city the will give them a pass on sales tax. Any service such as installation of doors, windows, AC, Cabinets, Roofing, and the list goes on puts all other contractors in that area at a huge disadvantage; it also puts all stores that do not receive that subsidy at a disadvantage.

I included Other Nations, Third world courtiers and Nameless corporations in the supply and not the demand because we are speaking of the American market. This is what you said�?? The market isn’t some abstract black hole where money disappears. The market is the American people.�??

I have no problem reading your books, but I will have to put them at the bottom of my list. I am seldom with out a book to read.

You did not answer the question about reading the article on Lagos.

There is no reason steel could not be as profitable in America as it is else where. It is a viable industry. It would probably take little more than busting the unions to get it off the ground. We need to bring an industry to the old steel valley, to put to work all the unemployed.

We have a generation of young men that have no education no job and no prospect of getting a job. It is going to bite our country in the ass if we do not address this situation. I do not care what the theory of libertarianism says, our government is supposed to try to do what is best for the people

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

It is a necessary consequence that in order to give one group privileges they must be taken from from someone else.

This is it

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

You are acting as we live in a Libertarian society already, and you are putting the market before the people. You must remember we are subsidizing Farming in Minnesota and other locations, Tobacco, Pharmaceuticals and the likes.

Why not subsidize something that would benefit the nation rather than a few of the wealthiest and a few stock holders

The market isn’t some abstract black hole where money disappears. The market is the american people. The market provide the exchange of money for labor and goods to and from the people.

What is good for the market is good for the people as a whole. We shouldn’t subsidize any industries outside national security purposes or in times of war. I don’t understand your comment about benefit of a few wealthy or a few stockholders. The gov’t shouldn’t provide any help to them either. The gov’t should stay out of the market all together.

Where do you get that in a free market there will never be a shortage of work to do. That has to be one of biggest load of hooey any one has tried to pass for fact.

It’s not fact. It is well reasoned theory. The only unemployement we should have is volentary unemployment. There is no reason able bodied people should not be able to find work in a free market. There is always demand for the new services and product and these require labor and investment.

You act as though you really have a say in how your Grand Children�??s money is being spent, I hate to inform you our government is subsidizing things you and I would be pissed about.

I don’t want to have a say in how anyone else’s money is spent. Only my own. I realize our gov’t is handing out subsidies like candy. Adding to the list only makes things worse.
[/quote]

D hickey you also forgot to explain how in a free markey, how there would be only willing unemployment Thx

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

D hickey you also forgot to explain how in a free markey, how there would be only willing unemployment Thx

[/quote]

No I didn’t.

Still digging out from under my inbox, but felt compelled to post this article from today’s WSJ here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121901904588048279.html?mod=todays_columnists

[i]
INFORMATION AGE
By L. GORDON CROVITZ

A Better Way to Free Trade
August 18, 2008

Hong Kong

This tiny outpost of radical thinking is an excellent vantage point for the recent collapse of the multilateral trade negotiations. Hong Kong is essentially irrelevant to trade talks because it practices unilateral free trade, with virtually no tariffs or other barriers. People here understand that imports, exports and the rigors of comparative advantage create individual opportunity and wealth. Enough, in Hong Kong’s case, for it to have evolved under almost pure free trade from a rocky harbor into one of the wealthiest places on earth.

But don’t some industries in Hong Kong seek government protection? Don’t some bureaucrats seek to expand their powers? What about antitrade activists?

“Unilateral free trade is never an issue,” reports Yeung Wai Hong, publisher of the popular Chinese-language weekly Next Magazine. Unilateral free trade remains policy here under Chinese rule, as it was under Britain. Mr. Yeung noted that one of the few tariffs that did exist, on wine, was recently abolished, and in typically speedy fashion Hong Kong is already hosting some of the world’s biggest wine exhibitions and auctions.

Few places practice unilateral free trade, but one reason the failure of the recent trade negotiations hasn’t been bigger news is the less well-understood point that some of the most important industries in the world live in their own version of a free-trading Hong Kong.

The global information and technology industries in particular have thrived in nearly Hong Kong-like conditions. Trade barriers are rare issues, certainly compared with industries such as autos, steel and farming.

For many newer, knowledge-based industries, the U.S. has not relied on multiparty or bilateral agreements. Instead, Information Age industries have usually not sought trade protections and have thrived by being left alone. “Such ultramodern industries as telecommunications and financial services gained their momentum largely from unilateral openness and deregulation in the U.S.,” economist Jagdish Bhagwati has explained. “A Brussels bureaucrat can argue with a Washington bureaucrat, but he cannot argue with the markets.”

The idea of unilateral free trade is often dismissed as politically impossible outside trading centers like Hong Kong and Singapore. The impossibility of unilateralism is only partly true.

The hound that doesn’t bark is the selective unilateral free trade that occurs when countries choose not to impose barriers in preferred industries. While global trade has grown rapidly since World War II – partly because of the success of earlier multilateral trade agreements – not enough attention has been paid to the role played by tariffs and other barriers that were never put in place for industries that have led growth in world trade. Unilateral free trade by the U.S. has especially helped software, hardware, the Web and other technologies.

Why should only selected, preferred industries benefit from unilateral free trade? Open trade is a good in itself; the wealth it produces can fund retraining for those displaced when a country loses competitiveness in particular segments. Trade is also the ultimate source of economic information, which means that the more free the trade in an industry, the more efficient the industry will become as comparative strengths move around the world.

If standard software can be developed most efficiently in India, that’s where it will move. If sugar production needs to be subsidized in the U.S. or cows subsidized in France, these industries will lose out on innovation as competition is suppressed.

The experience of a trading center like Hong Kong, or of an open-trading industry such as technology, suggests that unilateralism would be a timely alternative to multilateral trade efforts. The “Doha Round” that began in 2001 and broke up in July was the first to fail since the founding of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, now the World Trade Organization. The finger-pointing centers on India and China, which demanded new protections against agricultural imports from the U.S. and Europe. But these talks became so complex and involved so many interest groups from so many countries that it wasn’t surprising they collapsed.

Even if the Doha Round is resuscitated, the language of trade as a negotiation among countries is now part of the problem. Support even for bilateral agreements has waned, with Congress holding up agreements with countries such as South Korea and Colombia. Rather than trade as something that governments regulate or agree to stop regulating, trade should be what people do when left to their own decisions in free global markets.

As Mr. Bhagwati puts it, “If we refuse to reduce our trade barriers just because others do not reduce theirs, we lose from our trading partners’ barriers and then lose again from our own.” So a proper response to the failure of multilateral trade talks would be to extend the benefits granted to lucky industries such as technology – by granting all industries the same unilateral free trade.
[/i]

Great post above.

Unilateral trade agreement and protectionism is incredibly destructive. Especially with nations that owe us money or that we owe money to. Fiat money systems compound the ill effects even more. A perfect exsample is what happened to the world economy pre WWII.

Have we ever gone to war with a country we have had good trade relationships with?

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Have we ever gone to war with a country we have had good trade relationships with?[/quote]

Not until we purposely ruined it.