[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
rmccart1 wrote:
Oh hell yeah, do freedom and then reword John Locke’s section on “Power” in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding. Easy A.
this is called plagiarism. easy F.[/quote]
I was joking. Lighten up. It would be a great piece to read for inspiration, though.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
my view is that “general education” style classes are generally done very badly. i don’t like the idea of a college writing class to begin with, for the stated reasons, and hearing about some of the insane topics assigned in these classes normally only reaffirms my view. college classes in general should be more writing intensive, there should be little need for such a thing.
[/quote]
I disagree. Perhaps you already understood basic writing style and practice when you began college, but many students do not.
Having tutored some of those students, and seen the benefits they derive from learning how to write for diverse audiences or purposes, as well as from mastering some of the “elements of style” and formal practice, I think such classes often serve the purpose admirably. Individual teachers, curricula, or students may fail.
Not everyone who enters high school or college has thought deeply about the surrounding world. Topics that might seem to you inane or mere “busywork” may open new horizons to a less perspicacious student.
Many colleges offer a way to exempt out of such intro classes. SAT scores, for instance. Although I have known many bright students who tested well and yet were incapable of writing a coherent, well-formed essay.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
You’re making it complicated because you want to bolster your self-esteem. I hope it’s working, because I doubt it’s helping the OP.[/quote]
i did make several constructive posts. I said look here and here for ideas on how to write about such a thing, then I gave sources, and then i gave suggests on issues to think about. so… not sure why your trying to imply that none of my posts where constructive.
i post here for a variety of reasons, when i have time, i’m sure just like post of the other posters.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
stokedporcupine wrote:
my view is that “general education” style classes are generally done very badly. i don’t like the idea of a college writing class to begin with, for the stated reasons, and hearing about some of the insane topics assigned in these classes normally only reaffirms my view. college classes in general should be more writing intensive, there should be little need for such a thing.
I disagree. Perhaps you already understood basic writing style and practice when you began college, but many students do not. Having tutored some of those students, and seen the benefits they derive from learning how to write for diverse audiences or purposes, as well as from mastering some of the “elements of style” and formal practice, I think such classes often serve the purpose admirably. Individual teachers, curricula, or students may fail.
Not everyone who enters high school or college has thought deeply about the surrounding world. Topics that might seem to you inane or mere “busywork” may open new horizons to a less perspicacious student.
Many colleges offer a way to exempt out of such intro classes. SAT scores, for instance. Although I have known many bright students who tested well and yet were incapable of writing a coherent, well-formed essay.[/quote]
I understand many students come into school lacking basic writing skills (i tutor also, and read enough intro paper’s, lol). I still believe there are better ways to go about learning how to write then a class on composition. if anything, a class on composition should be an advanced class for people who already know how to write.
you cannot learn how to write without actually writing, and the more one writes the better they come at it. this practice of writing is something students should get through most of their other classes. I look at it this way. if students had to actually write in most of their classes, what need would there before for composition?
also, i’m not arguing against the value of general education classes (like i said, i merely think they are normally done very badly). when i came into school i was ignorant of many things also, and were it not for general education classes i’d still be fumbling around in many areas. i simply strongly disagree with the value of this particular class.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
to be honest though, i tend to think most college composition courses are wastes of time anyway. this is college… you learn to write by actually writing in your field of interest. Basic things like proper grammar should have been covered in highschool, and there is no “right” way to right. generally best to learn by actually writing in the field your going to be in.[/quote]
Having had to TA a number of them at a research university, I agree. The “Humanities Core” writing instructors want to hear something interesting and develop point of view. They also have quite a political agenda. This is all fine and good, but MOST, and I truly mean MOST of the students cannot even construct a decent sentence. These are students that have to be in the top 10% of their high school class in CA.
It is boring to teach the basics of writing, but that is what is needed for most students.
One upper-division class I TA’ed was taught by a research professor in the department (as opposed to an English professor). He was determined that the students would master several things: one of them was to recognize valid English sentences. We drilled it and quizzed it at every lecture, 3 days a week. I respect this prof for being willing to drill a boring basic for college seniors. I learned this stuff in the third grade.
To the OP – it is essential that you understand what your teacher is looking for in this assignment. It does not matter what we think it should be or what we think would be a good topic. The teacher has something specific in mind and will downgrade you if you write something else. Go discuss it with the teacher during office hours. Actually, even if you understand an assignment, go talk to the teacher anyway. It is psychologically harder to grade hard on a student who has come to you sincerely seeking help and advice well BEFORE the assignment was due.
[quote]andersons wrote:
To the OP – it is essential that you understand what your teacher is looking for in this assignment. It does not matter what we think it should be or what we think would be a good topic. The teacher has something specific in mind and will downgrade you if you write something else. Go discuss it with the teacher during office hours. Actually, even if you understand an assignment, go talk to the teacher anyway. It is psychologically harder to grade hard on a student who has come to you sincerely seeking help and advice well BEFORE the assignment was due.[/quote]
This is good advice.
I once had a friend who was taking a literature course. The professor would give papers back with grades, and you were permitted to rewrite them as often as you liked. My friend developed her point of view very well, but came to a conclusion the professor didn’t like. The professor kept giving her a B and asking for more evidence. I told her “do you want to be right, or do you want to get the A?” She rewrote her conclusions to conform to the professor’s viewpoint. She got an A.
This is part of “knowing what the teacher wants.” Some teachers are open to diverse viewpoints. Learn to recognize early when they are not.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
andersons wrote:
To the OP – it is essential that you understand what your teacher is looking for in this assignment. It does not matter what we think it should be or what we think would be a good topic. The teacher has something specific in mind and will downgrade you if you write something else. Go discuss it with the teacher during office hours. Actually, even if you understand an assignment, go talk to the teacher anyway. It is psychologically harder to grade hard on a student who has come to you sincerely seeking help and advice well BEFORE the assignment was due.
This is good advice.
I once had a friend who was taking a literature course. The professor would give papers back with grades, and you were permitted to rewrite them as often as you liked. My friend developed her point of view very well, but came to a conclusion the professor didn’t like. The professor kept giving her a B and asking for more evidence. I told her “do you want to be right, or do you want to get the A?” She rewrote her conclusions to conform to the professor’s viewpoint. She got an A.
This is part of “knowing what the teacher wants.” Some teachers are open to diverse viewpoints. Learn to recognize early when they are not.[/quote]
while i agree this is good advice, i have to take issue with some points. when i tutor, the first thing i talk to the student about is what the goal of the class is, what the prof expects the student to be able to do, and how to help the student develop whatever they need to in order to meet the prof’s expectations. My goal is always to help the student do well in the course.
this being said, i take extreme issue with prof’s who will lower your grade not because of the quality of your work, but rather because they don’t agree with your conclusion. If your conclusion is not sufficiently supported by evidence and argumentation, then you deserve a lower grade. if though you provide reasonable and articulate argumentation for your position, then the outcome is not what matters. my view is that even if you make flaws in your own reasoning, at the undergraduate level a demonstration of the ability to develop and articulate coherent arguments is enough to warrant a high grade. though i know most students are not willing to do this, and that many deans will not listen, i always think its best to write formal complaints to the dean about prof’s who grade based solely on conclusion. To me, this is called academic integrity.
Of course though i must admit that in most cases, even if an undergrad loses points based on their conclusions it probably is also the case that their arguments where insufficient to warrant the conclusion.
Like most of you have stated I think stoked porcupine is making it a bit more complicated then it is. The research paper is easy, once I get started, the problem is I cannot think of a term that needs defining that can fill a whole 12-15 pages.
Some examples the prof. gave and are not to be used by the class are.
term:soldier.The meaning would be different now then that of a soldier in WW2
term:dating.In this day and age it is seen as outdated and courting is non-existent, unless you are from a consevative family.
term:Pursuit of happiness. What does it mean to people now, surely it is differnt then the belief of our forefathers,
So, I guess it can be seen as a compare and contrast or the redefining of a word.
I just can’t think of something that would fill 12-15 pages.
Like most of you have stated I think stoked porcupine is making it a bit more complicated then it is. The research paper is easy, once I get started, the problem is I cannot think of a term that needs defining that can fill a whole 12-15 pages.
Some examples the prof. gave and are not to be used by the class are.
term:soldier.The meaning would be different now then that of a soldier in WW2
term:dating.In this day and age it is seen as outdated and courting is non-existent, unless you are from a consevative family.
term:Pursuit of happiness. What does it mean to people now, surely it is differnt then the belief of our forefathers,
So, I guess it can be seen as a compare and contrast or the redefining of a word.
I just can’t think of something that would fill 12-15 pages.
How are you meant to structure the paper? 12 pages isn’t that many when you get into it.
I seem to recall essays being formulated around a brief introduction of all your points, followed be expansion of these points in turn. Then followed up with detailed explanation of each point. Then a conclusion would be drawn in summary form for each point. Finally a closing summary of the essay as a whole with all points covered.
At least that is how I remember writing essays. With that structure you are left with a page or so detailed info on each point, about two pages of introduction and two pages of conclusion.
Is the paper testing your ability to present an argument, or to provide good content? One does not always mean the other.
As far as the whole soldier thing, that can encompass the role of the military, both within society as a whole and as a political tool of government. You can also draw attention to how the role of the military has not changed, but the perception of it by the media, and in turn the population has changed. There are a lot of tangents connected to the soldier thing.
I think 12 pages on that subject would be reasonable.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Like most of you have stated I think stoked porcupine is making it a bit more complicated then it is. The research paper is easy, once I get started, the problem is I cannot think of a term that needs defining that can fill a whole 12-15 pages.
Some examples the prof. gave and are not to be used by the class are.
term:soldier.The meaning would be different now then that of a soldier in WW2
term:dating.In this day and age it is seen as outdated and courting is non-existent, unless you are from a consevative family.
term:Pursuit of happiness. What does it mean to people now, surely it is differnt then the belief of our forefathers,
So, I guess it can be seen as a compare and contrast or the redefining of a word.
I just can’t think of something that would fill 12-15 pages.
[/quote]
your post is evidence that i am not making this more complicated then need be, and that the topic actually is more then the average student in an intro composition class can handle.
Plato writes a 300 page dialog on the term “justice”, a 100 page dialog on the term “love”, Aristotle writes thousands of lines on how best to define “happiness”, etc… and you don’t think its possible for fill 10-12 double spaced pages on the definition of something like “dating” or “happiness”?
my point was, and still is, that writing a paper on the definition of a word is not a light topic that can be brushed over in an intro english class. Any treatment of the topic in an intro english class is going to be so shallow that i can’t see most students getting anything from it. as i said, something better would simply be to assign a research paper where the student has to research say the history of a word, common uses, etc… this type of topic, unlike the topic of the definition, would be limited and structured enough to allow for the student to actually get something from the research.
i am trying to be helpful though. look at the socratic dialogs again to start with. also, think about what sort of definition you want to give. think about what a definition does in general. this approach you have of “oh, i’m just going to give the literal definition” is silly. Because of how large the topic is, my guess is that unless you put more thought into just what sort of definition you want to give, why you want to give it, etc… that your paper is going to turn out unorganized, broken, and incoherent.
besides, you yourself say your not sure how to fill 10-12 pages. thinking about and addressing the questions i posed to you will help you fill those 10-12 pages. Also, i would imagine that your prof would be impressed if in your paper you not only washed over some general definition of a term, but also seriously considered how, why, and for what purpose the definition you considered was formulated.
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
How are you meant to structure the paper? 12 pages isn’t that many when you get into it.
I seem to recall essays being formulated around a brief introduction of all your points, followed be expansion of these points in turn. Then followed up with detailed explanation of each point. Then a conclusion would be drawn in summary form for each point. Finally a closing summary of the essay as a whole with all points covered.
At least that is how I remember writing essays. With that structure you are left with a page or so detailed info on each point, about two pages of introduction and two pages of conclusion.
Is the paper testing your ability to present an argument, or to provide good content? One does not always mean the other.
As far as the whole soldier thing, that can encompass the role of the military, both within society as a whole and as a political tool of government. You can also draw attention to how the role of the military has not changed, but the perception of it by the media, and in turn the population has changed. There are a lot of tangents connected to the soldier thing.
I think 12 pages on that subject would be reasonable.[/quote]
I know that 12 pages would not be that hard to do, the problem I face is that I cannot think of a term to write the research paper on. The soldier is an example I can’t use.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
xXSeraphimXx wrote:
Like most of you have stated I think stoked porcupine is making it a bit more complicated then it is. The research paper is easy, once I get started, the problem is I cannot think of a term that needs defining that can fill a whole 12-15 pages.
Some examples the prof. gave and are not to be used by the class are.
term:soldier.The meaning would be different now then that of a soldier in WW2
term:dating.In this day and age it is seen as outdated and courting is non-existent, unless you are from a consevative family.
term:Pursuit of happiness. What does it mean to people now, surely it is differnt then the belief of our forefathers,
So, I guess it can be seen as a compare and contrast or the redefining of a word.
I just can’t think of something that would fill 12-15 pages.
your post is evidence that i am not making this more complicated then need be, and that the topic actually is more then the average student in an intro composition class can handle.
Plato writes a 300 page dialog on the term “justice”, a 100 page dialog on the term “love”, Aristotle writes thousands of lines on how best to define “happiness”, etc… and you don’t think its possible for fill 10-12 double spaced pages on the definition of something like “dating” or “happiness”?
my point was, and still is, that writing a paper on the definition of a word is not a light topic that can be brushed over in an intro english class. Any treatment of the topic in an intro english class is going to be so shallow that i can’t see most students getting anything from it. as i said, something better would simply be to assign a research paper where the student has to research say the history of a word, common uses, etc… this type of topic, unlike the topic of the definition, would be limited and structured enough to allow for the student to actually get something from the research.
i am trying to be helpful though. look at the socratic dialogs again to start with. also, think about what sort of definition you want to give. think about what a definition does in general. this approach you have of “oh, i’m just going to give the literal definition” is silly. Because of how large the topic is, my guess is that unless you put more thought into just what sort of definition you want to give, why you want to give it, etc… that your paper is going to turn out unorganized, broken, and incoherent.
besides, you yourself say your not sure how to fill 10-12 pages. thinking about and addressing the questions i posed to you will help you fill those 10-12 pages. Also, i would imagine that your prof would be impressed if in your paper you not only washed over some general definition of a term, but also seriously considered how, why, and for what purpose the definition you considered was formulated. [/quote]
10-12 pages would be easy but, I can’t use those examples. I have to give the literal meaning of the word because that is the assignment, it is my job to then not necessarily redefine the word but, explain how it has changed over time, in my opinion. I understand that defining a term can be difficult but, I dont really have to do that. Take the happiness example, the def. in a dictionary might be to find pleasure blah blah blah. I would then say in the 1920’s happiness was your family, a farm, helping those in need.
Fast forward to 2008 happiness seems to now mean to be rich and have alot of sex. Something like that, of course it doesn’t apply to everyone but, using society, television and the general direction the nation is heading that is what I might conclude. However I cannot use this example.
[quote]stokedporcupine wrote:
nephorm wrote:
andersons wrote:
To the OP – it is essential that you understand what your teacher is looking for in this assignment. It does not matter what we think it should be or what we think would be a good topic. The teacher has something specific in mind and will downgrade you if you write something else. Go discuss it with the teacher during office hours. Actually, even if you understand an assignment, go talk to the teacher anyway. It is psychologically harder to grade hard on a student who has come to you sincerely seeking help and advice well BEFORE the assignment was due.
This is good advice.
I once had a friend who was taking a literature course. The professor would give papers back with grades, and you were permitted to rewrite them as often as you liked. My friend developed her point of view very well, but came to a conclusion the professor didn’t like. The professor kept giving her a B and asking for more evidence. I told her “do you want to be right, or do you want to get the A?” She rewrote her conclusions to conform to the professor’s viewpoint. She got an A.
This is part of “knowing what the teacher wants.” Some teachers are open to diverse viewpoints. Learn to recognize early when they are not.
while i agree this is good advice, i have to take issue with some points. when i tutor, the first thing i talk to the student about is what the goal of the class is, what the prof expects the student to be able to do, and how to help the student develop whatever they need to in order to meet the prof’s expectations. My goal is always to help the student do well in the course.
this being said, i take extreme issue with prof’s who will lower your grade not because of the quality of your work, but rather because they don’t agree with your conclusion. If your conclusion is not sufficiently supported by evidence and argumentation, then you deserve a lower grade. if though you provide reasonable and articulate argumentation for your position, then the outcome is not what matters. my view is that even if you make flaws in your own reasoning, at the undergraduate level a demonstration of the ability to develop and articulate coherent arguments is enough to warrant a high grade. though i know most students are not willing to do this, and that many deans will not listen, i always think its best to write formal complaints to the dean about prof’s who grade based solely on conclusion. To me, this is called academic integrity.
Of course though i must admit that in most cases, even if an undergrad loses points based on their conclusions it probably is also the case that their arguments where insufficient to warrant the conclusion. [/quote]
I find that most college professors downgrade you for that.