Hell Is Real And Souls Go There

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
142

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Have you ever been the serious object of a conversion attempt, Sloth?

Never been cornered by Muslims or Jehovah’s Witnesses or Evangelical Southern Baptists who want to pray for your immortal soul so that you don’t end up in Hell? [/quote]

I grew up smack dab in the middle of Evangelicals…

Edit: Some of my best friends think Catholicism isn’t a Christian Sect at all. Do I care? Nope. Not even to be offended.

It absolutely does not concern (not even to offend) me what anyone else thinks will happen to me upon my death. It is bizarre to be offended by an outcome you don’t believe will happen.

143

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
I think most would agree that the tenants of relegion at its core are all good things. Could it be that relegion and I mean all religion are simply a creation of man in his infancy to explain what was un-explainable and create order. The idea that one is right & 1 is wrong sucks. The "everyone burns theory needs to stop… To deny stuff like carbon dating & evolution is pretty much just silly at this point in time… Being objective and questioning what is makes us who we are & propels the human race[/quote]

The tenets of religion don’t exist to explain the unexplainable. That’s not the point of it at all.

144

[quote]cryogen wrote:

GENOCIDE, PERSECUTION, MURDER and TORTURE. These are the reasons that christianity has spread like a plague, and has survived. However, thankfully, it is dying off as we become more knowledgeable as a species.

As for length of time that religions have been around, maybe you should have a think about the oldest group of religions in the world - hinduism. It breaks your argument about your self serving cult of human sacrifice.[/quote]

If you ever want to be taken seriously then get educated about what you are talking about so you don’t sound like a moron. At this point you’re just a stupid little troll. You post no facts, no logic, no understanding of the matters being discussed. You just ridicule baselessly. You’re just an angry little pointless atheist.

145

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

Yes this is what I believe.

[/quote]

Then you have faith. And yet faith is something you are here ridiculing.

Bottom line is you have faith. I have faith. Everyone has faith.

In something.

Word to the wise: if you don’t want someone ridiculing your faith you might want to practice what you preach.

Now your response might be, “Yeah, but my faith makes more sense because…blah…blah…blah” and that’s fine. But don’t play the game that your “belief” is more plausible because faith is not needed. It is.

Yes, you could because you have to depend on the opinions of mere mortals…which incidentally is what you show scorn for to those on the other side of the issue.

You would if you “believed,” i.e., had faith, that indeed that was the case.

Your belief/faith just happens not to include this. Fine. That doesn’t make your belief more true.
[/quote]

I don’t think blind faith and belief in the benefits of observation, reason, and measurement are one in the same. Maybe you do, that is fine.

EDIT: And yes, I guess my belief in the benefits of reason, observation, and measurement “just so happens” not to include the eternal torture of those that believe otherwise. [/quote]

What ‘reason’ is this that you speak of?

146

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Christians, Muslims etc will NEVER believe their theory of creation to be false no matter what evidence there is against it.
[/quote]

Because there has never been any indisputable proof against it. You have any?
[/quote]

Gods born of a virgin:
Augustus
Adonis
Korbyas
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Perseus
Zoroaster
Dionysus
Mithras
Buddha
Jesus

Jesus happens to be the most recent of the gods born of a virgin. Now this may not be indisputable evidence to you, but the fact is that the story of Jesus shares many similarities with other gods that predate him. So it would stand to reason that Jesus is a myth heavily influence by the myths of the past. Any evidence against this?
[/quote]

My question had nothing to do with Jesus being born of a virgin, but since you bring it up. this proof does not mean that Jesus was not born of a virgin. Just means that other claim to have been born of a virgin also. Too many prophecies of the Messiah were found completed in Jesus. Were they made up is hard to tell, but millions of people have died for this Man. People do not just willingly die for a lie. Of the 12 disciples, 10 were martyred for their faith, one hung himself because he betrayed the Messiah, and the other took care of Jesus’ Mother. Others say it was all about money and power. The disciples were poor just read the book of Acts. Everything they had was given to them. In fact Paul was a tent maker for the Roman Empire. That is how he got his citizenship as a Roman.

My question had to do with evidence or proof that creation is wrong. I wanted to know what your proof that creation did not happen the way the Bible said it happen. I personally do not buy into the notion that the 7 days are 24 hour periods. Push and I differ on this. Could it be that way yes. This is not the point of this discussion though.

I have seen the scientific theories about how the world came into existence, and I see it jiving with the Creation story in the Bible. In this scientific theory there are so many possible outcomes and everything lining up perfectly that without God we would not be here. If the earth had been a couple hundred miles closer or farther from the sun (no liquid water), if the earth had not collected enough mass (magnetic field without it we would have ended up like Mars), if the moon was larger or smaller (our orbit and the tilt of our earth for seasons and tides), if Jupiter’s gravity was not so powerful to pull in asteroids and comets (we would have more and more collisions), and on, and on, and on. This is the reason for the watch factory story. It was not by chance, but by a divine hand we are here.
[/quote]

The main difference I see between the scientific theories of our existence and the religious belief in a creator is that the former comes to their belief through observation and reason and the latter comes to their belief through blind faith in the ancient texts passed down to them by their parents (in most cases.) I wouldn’t say creationism is wrong, just that is unproven. No more proven than evolution. To go around saying people will suffer in hell for eternity because they don’t believe in a certain theory of creation is asinine IMO. Could there be a creator? I certainly am not ruling it out. Is the creator the one described in the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc.? About as probable as Jedi’s using the force in a galaxy far far away.[/quote]

At least you are not ruling it out. Just so you know the Torah and the Old Testament in the Bible are the same, unless you are using a Catholic Bible and they have 7 extra books that are added. To all the Catholics yes I know the argument you guys have about the Apocrypha.

About the Jedi’s that is fantasy and the George Lucas even says that. Now the Bible the people in it sure do seem more historical than many of the myths that people like to compare to the Bible. People that have PhDs in literature have read the Bible and state the Bible does not read like a myth, but as a historical text.
[/quote]

The religious texts of ancient Egypt and the Sumerians read like historical text, as well as most any other religion. If there is a creator, the chances it fits snugly into any of these religious beliefs is no more likely for one than the other.[/quote]

Then why has those religions not stood the test of time? The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 39 authors. No other religion can make those claims. Usually it is only one author during their life time or shorter.
[/quote]

The Christian Bible (what survives of it after Nicaea) was written over a period of a couple hundred years by a handful of writers. The Hebrew Bible is older by far, making Judaism a religion that had stood the test of time longer than Christianity, and without the thousands of splinterings into sects and sub-sects that Christianity has. Islam, too, is now nearly 1500 years old, and yes, you can say that the Qur’an borrows from earlier sources, but the same can be said from those earlier sources.

The Christ story borrows plenty of elements from Greek myth, particularly Heracles and Dionysos (which was itself borrowed from the Egyptian Horus myth), as well as the Zoroastrian stories of Mithra. The entire book of Matthew has some fascinating parallels to the Egyptian book of the Dead, and the book of Job and story of Noah parallels far earlier stories from Greek and Sumerian mythology.
[/quote]
The fact that their may be correlations with other earlier faiths does not stand to reason that the ‘Christ Story’ was made up as a compilation of earlier stories. We do know that Jesus did in fact exist. You may or may not believe he is who he is, or did what he did, but there is no evidence that the story was made up from earlier stories.

No we don’t and no they didn’t. They did manage to understand that there was something greater in the universe then themselves. They may not have understood what that was or had only a partial understanding of it. But to a certain degree, yes they got it. I certainly don’t dismiss these ancients as stupid. They knew there were forces at work that they didn’t understand and they strove to understand them.

[quote]
You see, the theory of evolution also applies to religion. Some religions go extinct, but not before passing a few of their genes on to other religions, which then continue to evolve and speciate. We just don’t always see it happening because the time scale is so long. [/quote]

No, I think the theory of evolution is applicable only to the adaptation of living organisms. Religions of lesser understanding gave way to those of greater understanding. I suppose you can say the ‘evolved’ to a certain degree, but it’s not part and parcel to the theory of evolution.

147

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I also believe there have been big bangs in the past. The universe is expanding and black holes make it shrink back down until the last black hole swallows the next to last black hole and then you have another big bang. [/quote]

And you have proof of this belief?

I have heard this before. You know 72 Virgins and Stuff. Because people have actually been to a black hole and gone into it. No visible proof of a black hole, just the actions of other matter around it.

Yes, I am taking a stab at you. Not trying to be an a@@ just making you think.

A black hole just like God can not be directly seen. You can only see the effects of the matter around it.

Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]

Dude, I appreciate your belief. As far as proof of belief… I don’t no what you’re asking. Black holes are real and there is proof they exist unlike any god like entity. We can see the actions they take. You can see light bending and objects heating up as they are ripped apart. We can also see the universe expanding. It’s my belief that as black holes swallow each other their gravitational pull becomes stronger and more and more holes collapse on each other continuing this process. Eventually there will be no more matter to swallow and this is the point where the big bang occurs. It is known that as black holes implode that huge explosions occur (quasars or something)

Stabbing back at you I believe in science because it’s right here in our faces everyday. There is no proof at all of any God. That’s not to say some being doesn’t exist, but the traditional story of Adam and Eve and God and Jesus is ridiculous at best. It was the best story the powers that be could come up with at the time. They did a good job considering people like you still believe it. The time has come to realize that story telling and God works in mysterious ways is bs. Every action you question God on comes down to well he works in mysterious ways. Come on now.

148

[quote]Jlabs wrote:
I find it funny that Jesus during his life performed all these miracles yet no Roman historian wrote about him during his lifetime. I think there was mentions of him around jerusaleum in the time that he lived in writing. Some one who was seen as a rebel of the time, would have been cool if it was documented during his life and not after the fact. We all know how recounting stories years after they happen we tend to exaggerate them. Jesus is a cool dude when you get down to his actions and words, I dislike organized religion, but most gods or scriptures when read have some type of lessons to learn. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, all have very good points. The best part of Islam is the shariah law imo,which says you can’t lend money with interest on it, I hate debt aha.And you can have multiple wives lol[/quote]

There is no one in history who has been more written about then Jesus. And how do you know there are no Roman accounts? Have you discovered all the Roman texts from Jerusalem, read them all and found there is no account? There may or may not have been records, we will never know because we cannot discover all of what was. Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed after that time.

149

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I also believe there have been big bangs in the past. The universe is expanding and black holes make it shrink back down until the last black hole swallows the next to last black hole and then you have another big bang. [/quote]

And you have proof of this belief?

I have heard this before. You know 72 Virgins and Stuff. Because people have actually been to a black hole and gone into it. No visible proof of a black hole, just the actions of other matter around it.

Yes, I am taking a stab at you. Not trying to be an a@@ just making you think.

A black hole just like God can not be directly seen. You can only see the effects of the matter around it.

Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]

Dude, I appreciate your belief. As far as proof of belief… I don’t no what you’re asking. Black holes are real and there is proof they exist unlike any god like entity. We can see the actions they take. You can see light bending and objects heating up as they are ripped apart. We can also see the universe expanding. It’s my belief that as black holes swallow each other their gravitational pull becomes stronger and more and more holes collapse on each other continuing this process. Eventually there will be no more matter to swallow and this is the point where the big bang occurs. It is known that as black holes implode that huge explosions occur (quasars or something)

Stabbing back at you I believe in science because it’s right here in our faces everyday. There is no proof at all of any God. That’s not to say some being doesn’t exist, but the traditional story of Adam and Eve and God and Jesus is ridiculous at best. It was the best story the powers that be could come up with at the time. They did a good job considering people like you still believe it. The time has come to realize that story telling and God works in mysterious ways is bs. Every action you question God on comes down to well he works in mysterious ways. Come on now. [/quote]

I am glad you brought up black holes. We don’t know they exist. We believe they exist based on calculations and observation of matter with regards to the black hole, but the black hole itself cannot be observed. We believe they exist, we do not know they exist. It’s a matter of faith and hearsay. We are trusting scientists aren’t lying to us and we believe something exists that we don’t actually have direct evidence of.

150

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I also believe there have been big bangs in the past. The universe is expanding and black holes make it shrink back down until the last black hole swallows the next to last black hole and then you have another big bang. [/quote]

And you have proof of this belief?

I have heard this before. You know 72 Virgins and Stuff. Because people have actually been to a black hole and gone into it. No visible proof of a black hole, just the actions of other matter around it.

Yes, I am taking a stab at you. Not trying to be an a@@ just making you think.

A black hole just like God can not be directly seen. You can only see the effects of the matter around it.

Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]

Dude, I appreciate your belief. As far as proof of belief… I don’t no what you’re asking. Black holes are real and there is proof they exist unlike any god like entity. We can see the actions they take. You can see light bending and objects heating up as they are ripped apart. We can also see the universe expanding. It’s my belief that as black holes swallow each other their gravitational pull becomes stronger and more and more holes collapse on each other continuing this process. Eventually there will be no more matter to swallow and this is the point where the big bang occurs. It is known that as black holes implode that huge explosions occur (quasars or something)

Stabbing back at you I believe in science because it’s right here in our faces everyday. There is no proof at all of any God. That’s not to say some being doesn’t exist, but the traditional story of Adam and Eve and God and Jesus is ridiculous at best. It was the best story the powers that be could come up with at the time. They did a good job considering people like you still believe it. The time has come to realize that story telling and God works in mysterious ways is bs. Every action you question God on comes down to well he works in mysterious ways. Come on now. [/quote]

I am glad you brought up black holes. We don’t know they exist. We believe they exist based on calculations and observation of matter with regards to the black hole, but the black hole itself cannot be observed. We believe they exist, we do not know they exist. It’s a matter of faith and hearsay. We are trusting scientists aren’t lying to us and we believe something exists that we don’t actually have direct evidence of.[/quote]

Yes, we do KNOW they do exist. Stop trying to compare God to science, you’ll lose every time. If the bible or any other ancient book actually talked about dinosaurs(which were right beneath their feet) or the science of earth quakes or volcanos then maybe I could start to believe. The bottom line is they didn’t know anything and made shit up to make sense of it all. It’s funny that all this shit happened a long ass time ago and NOTHING like that happens now. No walking on water or any other lies.

You’re a follower. That’s exactly how it is supposed to be. Don’t question, just follow. No thanks. I have a brain and my own destiny.

151

I’m not trying to piss anyone off. We all have our beliefs. It’s just nice that we don’t get our heads cut off for having an open mind.

I will say that’s it’s much, much more logical to believe a like species came here in the past and put us here as opposed to the bible version. Did the bible also talk about the other planets? No, because they KNEW that that there was only Earth. They knew it.

152

Glad to see I won’t be lonely in hell. Kneedragger apparently thinks he is getting in, but he says many PWI members won’t be getting in.

So kneedragger in heaven and me with V and some others in hell…sounds pretty nice. And I like warmer weather. Plus I’m a Gandhi fan and we all know that heathen will be burning eternally. Sorta looking forward to it now!

153

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jlabs wrote:
I find it funny that Jesus during his life performed all these miracles yet no Roman historian wrote about him during his lifetime. I think there was mentions of him around jerusaleum in the time that he lived in writing. Some one who was seen as a rebel of the time, would have been cool if it was documented during his life and not after the fact. We all know how recounting stories years after they happen we tend to exaggerate them. Jesus is a cool dude when you get down to his actions and words, I dislike organized religion, but most gods or scriptures when read have some type of lessons to learn. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, all have very good points. The best part of Islam is the shariah law imo,which says you can’t lend money with interest on it, I hate debt aha.And you can have multiple wives lol[/quote]

There is no one in history who has been more written about then Jesus. And how do you know there are no Roman accounts? Have you discovered all the Roman texts from Jerusalem, read them all and found there is no account? There may or may not have been records, we will never know because we cannot discover all of what was. Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed after that time. [/quote]
Not trying to rustle your feather’s just trying to get facts across. Yes he is written about alot after the time period in which he lived in. I believe he existed because of facts that conclude their was a rebellious person described in Jerusalem who’s actions coincide with what is written about him.

Yeah they sacked Jerusaleum pretty hard, maybe also the Romans did not want to give credit to someone who seemed like a god so people would not question the leading Roman religions of the time. I would find it awesome if such texts were uncovered because Christ as we know him today, may appear to be more of a rebel then what he is considered in today’s perception.

154

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Wow, I think I remember this bitter Cryingogen feller from before.

Really got a chip on his shoulder.[/quote]

Drive by Trolling?

155

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I’m not trying to piss anyone off. We all have our beliefs. It’s just nice that we don’t get our heads cut off for having an open mind.

I will say that’s it’s much, much more logical to believe a like species came here in the past and put us here as opposed to the bible version. Did the bible also talk about the other planets? No, because they KNEW that that there was only Earth. They knew it.[/quote]

Now it’s not my place to judge but…

You will be tortured eternally in a lake of fire for this view. Every single day for the rest of eternity you will be tortured in a lake of fire unless you sign up for our special club.

Pretty sure that is the definition of terrorism :slight_smile:

156

[quote]Bod-of-Phwoar wrote:
Okay, here’s an open question to our religious members: How would you convince followers of other religions that yours was the true faith, and theirs was hokum? Seriously interested, NOT trying to cause shitstorm.[/quote]

In Christianity it is not about you convincing or “selling” someone on your faith. It takes the Holy Spirit to change your heart. First, it is the conviction of Sin. Second, it is accepting that you need a Savior. Third, it is asking Jesus to be that Savior. Fourth, it is following Jesus.

157

[quote]H factor wrote:
Glad to see I won’t be lonely in hell. Kneedragger apparently thinks he is getting in, but he says many PWI members won’t be getting in.

So kneedragger in heaven and me with V and some others in hell…sounds pretty nice. And I like warmer weather. Plus I’m a Gandhi fan and we all know that heathen will be burning eternally. Sorta looking forward to it now! [/quote]

Don’t forget that Dahmer, if his conversion was sincere, will be up in the arms of the Lord as well. Perhaps Kneedragger and he can share a meal or two together, if meals are had in heaven.

Seriously, though, this conversation has always been just about impossible to have. When conversant A thinks conversant B going to burn forever in the undying flame of hell, and conversant B thinks conversant A is wasting his time and money–his life, the only one he gets–living a ridiculous pedant’s set of fanciful lies…you’re not going to get far.

158

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
A better question to the faithful would be, what would it take for you to change your religion, or to abandon it. [/quote]

Maybe you can answer that for us. I am really wanting to hear this.

159

[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
simply a creation of man in his infancy [/quote]

It would be pretty arrogant to assume we aren’t still in our infancy.

But I mean, iPhone and all, amirite?

160

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

I have seen the scientific theories about how the world came into existence, and I see it jiving with the Creation story in the Bible. In this scientific theory there are so many possible outcomes and everything lining up perfectly that without God we would not be here. If the earth had been a couple hundred miles closer or farther from the sun (no liquid water)…
[/quote]

Just for clarifications sake, in a given year the earth will be between 147 and 152 million kilometers away from the sun because of its elliptical orbit. That’s quite a bit more than a couple hundred miles.