Hell Is Real And Souls Go There

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

The main difference I see between the scientific theories of our existence and the religious belief in a creator is that the former comes to their belief through observation and reason and the latter comes to their belief through blind faith in the ancient texts passed down to them by their parents (in most cases.) I wouldn’t say creationism is wrong, just that is unproven. No more proven than evolution. To go around saying people will suffer in hell for eternity because they don’t believe in a certain theory of creation is asinine IMO. Could there be a creator? I certainly am not ruling it out. Is the creator the one described in the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc.? About as probable as Jedi’s using the force in a galaxy far far away.[/quote]
Evolution has been proven. The Catholic Church even recognizes that. Faith, by definition, cannot be proven otherwise it wouldn’t be faith.

82

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Christians, Muslims etc will NEVER believe their theory of creation to be false no matter what evidence there is against it.
[/quote]

Because there has never been any indisputable proof against it. You have any?
[/quote]

Gods born of a virgin:
Augustus
Adonis
Korbyas
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Perseus
Zoroaster
Dionysus
Mithras
Buddha
Jesus

Jesus happens to be the most recent of the gods born of a virgin. Now this may not be indisputable evidence to you, but the fact is that the story of Jesus shares many similarities with other gods that predate him. So it would stand to reason that Jesus is a myth heavily influence by the myths of the past. Any evidence against this?
[/quote]

My question had nothing to do with Jesus being born of a virgin, but since you bring it up. this proof does not mean that Jesus was not born of a virgin. Just means that other claim to have been born of a virgin also. Too many prophecies of the Messiah were found completed in Jesus. Were they made up is hard to tell, but millions of people have died for this Man. People do not just willingly die for a lie. Of the 12 disciples, 10 were martyred for their faith, one hung himself because he betrayed the Messiah, and the other took care of Jesus’ Mother. Others say it was all about money and power. The disciples were poor just read the book of Acts. Everything they had was given to them. In fact Paul was a tent maker for the Roman Empire. That is how he got his citizenship as a Roman.

My question had to do with evidence or proof that creation is wrong. I wanted to know what your proof that creation did not happen the way the Bible said it happen. I personally do not buy into the notion that the 7 days are 24 hour periods. Push and I differ on this. Could it be that way yes. This is not the point of this discussion though.

I have seen the scientific theories about how the world came into existence, and I see it jiving with the Creation story in the Bible. In this scientific theory there are so many possible outcomes and everything lining up perfectly that without God we would not be here. If the earth had been a couple hundred miles closer or farther from the sun (no liquid water), if the earth had not collected enough mass (magnetic field without it we would have ended up like Mars), if the moon was larger or smaller (our orbit and the tilt of our earth for seasons and tides), if Jupiter’s gravity was not so powerful to pull in asteroids and comets (we would have more and more collisions), and on, and on, and on. This is the reason for the watch factory story. It was not by chance, but by a divine hand we are here.
[/quote]

The main difference I see between the scientific theories of our existence and the religious belief in a creator is that the former comes to their belief through observation and reason and the latter comes to their belief through blind faith in the ancient texts passed down to them by their parents (in most cases.) I wouldn’t say creationism is wrong, just that is unproven. No more proven than evolution. To go around saying people will suffer in hell for eternity because they don’t believe in a certain theory of creation is asinine IMO. Could there be a creator? I certainly am not ruling it out. Is the creator the one described in the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc.? About as probable as Jedi’s using the force in a galaxy far far away.[/quote]

At least you are not ruling it out. Just so you know the Torah and the Old Testament in the Bible are the same, unless you are using a Catholic Bible and they have 7 extra books that are added. To all the Catholics yes I know the argument you guys have about the Apocrypha.

About the Jedi’s that is fantasy and the George Lucas even says that. Now the Bible the people in it sure do seem more historical than many of the myths that people like to compare to the Bible. People that have PhDs in literature have read the Bible and state the Bible does not read like a myth, but as a historical text.

83

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.

84

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Christians, Muslims etc will NEVER believe their theory of creation to be false no matter what evidence there is against it.
[/quote]

Because there has never been any indisputable proof against it. You have any?
[/quote]

Gods born of a virgin:
Augustus
Adonis
Korbyas
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Perseus
Zoroaster
Dionysus
Mithras
Buddha
Jesus

Jesus happens to be the most recent of the gods born of a virgin. Now this may not be indisputable evidence to you, but the fact is that the story of Jesus shares many similarities with other gods that predate him. So it would stand to reason that Jesus is a myth heavily influence by the myths of the past. Any evidence against this?

Evolution is not an unquestionable text that sends non-believers to hell. It is simply a theory, using observation and reason, explaining how we got here. I don’t believe it 100%. There are too many unknowns in our past and in the universe to say anything regarding our creation is 100% fact. What I do believe is that open scientific minds are more likely to find answers to our existence than blind faith. [/quote]

Well, there are a couple of things to say here. The first is that not all Christians believe in literal six day creation, some believe in evolution, and some consider the raging argument irrelevant to the faith. In fact one of the pre-eminent evolutionary proponents in the argument has been Dr. Simon Conway Morris–a paleobiologist from Cambridge University and professor of the same there, praised several times by the late Steven Gould himself for his work on the pre-Cambrian explosion and defense of evolution. Dr. Morris is also a very longstanding and active Christian.

Likewise one of my good friends works in entomology research in the field of evolutionary genetics. He is also an extremely strong Christian. There are several others I can think of that are doing extremely strong work and have been under consideration for the Nobel prize before.

The second thing is that “science” and “scientists” are not necessarily more open minded than normal people. Yes slme of the most open minded people I know of are scientists…but some are Christians as well. Further some of the most close minded people you can meet are also scientists, just as some are Christians. It is a myth that has been sort of self-perpetuating tht scientists are these impartial calculating individuals with open brains and no bias. If you work in science (as I do) you become aware of some of the most egregious cases of bias or ad hominem attacks you could think of, both published and not. My graduate professor was one such person, who was quite obviously looking down on another fellow professor–doing fantastic research at the same university and with major grant money mind you–for his worldview. They can be just as prone to these ad hominem attacks as any other area. That saves the effort of addressing the other person’s argument. Just because these attacks happen to be couched in different verbal terms thats appear to laypeople to be mre or less benign does not make them less fallacious to the people and peers in the area. [/quote]

What I meant is that I believe the principles of science have more potential to provide answers than long held religious beliefs. I would not argue that there are many scientists out there that are closed minded and agenda driven. They are still human. However, I think science at it’s core is intended to be unbiased reasoning based off observation and data. I agree there are many firm believers in creation that are scientists. I believe the main founder of the big bang theory was a catholic.

85

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]

Pressure changes of air is wind. This argument is no different than “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?” riddle.

Of course the fall causes the pressure changes and vibrations which, if funneled into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, and the brain translates it, it becomes a sound.

87

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]
Wind is moving air. The problem with your analogy is that you state you can measure and feel the effects of the wind and add, “just like God.” How do you measure the effects of God? How do you even prove these effects are from God? If we are both standing in the same place we will both feel the same effects from the wind. If you see and feel the effects of God and I don’t then how is it measurable by any sort of scientific standard? It seems that the effects of God are subjective whereas the effects of the wind are not. Just ask someone who lost his home to a hurricane.

88

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]

Pressure changes of air is wind. This argument is no different than “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?” riddle.

Of course the fall causes the pressure changes and vibrations which, if funneled into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, and the brain translates it, it becomes a sound.[/quote]

Exactly. Wind has not measurement. It is the air that is measured. Air traveling from High to Low pressure is wind.

You do not measure God, but you can measure the lives that are changed by God. I am one of those changed lives. You can not say, “God does not exist” because you have not experienced or felt the effects of God.

89

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Christians, Muslims etc will NEVER believe their theory of creation to be false no matter what evidence there is against it.
[/quote]

Because there has never been any indisputable proof against it. You have any?
[/quote]

Gods born of a virgin:
Augustus
Adonis
Korbyas
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Perseus
Zoroaster
Dionysus
Mithras
Buddha
Jesus

Jesus happens to be the most recent of the gods born of a virgin. Now this may not be indisputable evidence to you, but the fact is that the story of Jesus shares many similarities with other gods that predate him. So it would stand to reason that Jesus is a myth heavily influence by the myths of the past. Any evidence against this?
[/quote]

My question had nothing to do with Jesus being born of a virgin, but since you bring it up. this proof does not mean that Jesus was not born of a virgin. Just means that other claim to have been born of a virgin also. Too many prophecies of the Messiah were found completed in Jesus. Were they made up is hard to tell, but millions of people have died for this Man. People do not just willingly die for a lie. Of the 12 disciples, 10 were martyred for their faith, one hung himself because he betrayed the Messiah, and the other took care of Jesus’ Mother. Others say it was all about money and power. The disciples were poor just read the book of Acts. Everything they had was given to them. In fact Paul was a tent maker for the Roman Empire. That is how he got his citizenship as a Roman.

My question had to do with evidence or proof that creation is wrong. I wanted to know what your proof that creation did not happen the way the Bible said it happen. I personally do not buy into the notion that the 7 days are 24 hour periods. Push and I differ on this. Could it be that way yes. This is not the point of this discussion though.

I have seen the scientific theories about how the world came into existence, and I see it jiving with the Creation story in the Bible. In this scientific theory there are so many possible outcomes and everything lining up perfectly that without God we would not be here. If the earth had been a couple hundred miles closer or farther from the sun (no liquid water), if the earth had not collected enough mass (magnetic field without it we would have ended up like Mars), if the moon was larger or smaller (our orbit and the tilt of our earth for seasons and tides), if Jupiter’s gravity was not so powerful to pull in asteroids and comets (we would have more and more collisions), and on, and on, and on. This is the reason for the watch factory story. It was not by chance, but by a divine hand we are here.
[/quote]

The main difference I see between the scientific theories of our existence and the religious belief in a creator is that the former comes to their belief through observation and reason and the latter comes to their belief through blind faith in the ancient texts passed down to them by their parents (in most cases.) I wouldn’t say creationism is wrong, just that is unproven. No more proven than evolution. To go around saying people will suffer in hell for eternity because they don’t believe in a certain theory of creation is asinine IMO. Could there be a creator? I certainly am not ruling it out. Is the creator the one described in the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc.? About as probable as Jedi’s using the force in a galaxy far far away.[/quote]

At least you are not ruling it out. Just so you know the Torah and the Old Testament in the Bible are the same, unless you are using a Catholic Bible and they have 7 extra books that are added. To all the Catholics yes I know the argument you guys have about the Apocrypha.

About the Jedi’s that is fantasy and the George Lucas even says that. Now the Bible the people in it sure do seem more historical than many of the myths that people like to compare to the Bible. People that have PhDs in literature have read the Bible and state the Bible does not read like a myth, but as a historical text.
[/quote]

The religious texts of ancient Egypt and the Sumerians read like historical text, as well as most any other religion. If there is a creator, the chances it fits snugly into any of these religious beliefs is no more likely for one than the other.

90

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]

Pressure changes of air is wind. This argument is no different than “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?” riddle.

Of course the fall causes the pressure changes and vibrations which, if funneled into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, and the brain translates it, it becomes a sound.[/quote]

Exactly. Wind has not measurement. It is the air that is measured. Air traveling from High to Low pressure is wind.

You do not measure God, but you can measure the lives that are changed by God. I am one of those changed lives. You can not say, “God does not exist” because you have not experienced or felt the effects of God.
[/quote]
And you cannot say that God does exist. You can say you believe he exists. You can say that you interpret certain signs as evidence of his existence. But you cannot say that he does exist as though it were a statement of fact. Believing does not equal knowing. This is a fundamental element when it comes to the concept of faith.

91

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]
Wind is moving air. The problem with your analogy is that you state you can measure and feel the effects of the wind and add, “just like God.” How do you measure the effects of God? How do you even prove these effects are from God? If we are both standing in the same place we will both feel the same effects from the wind. If you see and feel the effects of God and I don’t then how is it measurable by any sort of scientific standard? It seems that the effects of God are subjective whereas the effects of the wind are not. Just ask someone who lost his home to a hurricane. [/quote]

Just because you do not understand God does not mean he does not exist. Lets look at two drug addicts standing next to each other. One chooses to give his life to Christ and he gets off of drugs. The other does not and over doses and dies. I would say the measurement is God changed the life of both, but only one chose to make the change. I give money to an organization called Teen Challenge. Story after story about how God changed their lives. So you are saying those individuals did not feel the effects of God?

Me typing on this thread could be the work of God through me to help you feel the effects of God, but you are choosing not to feel it. I could choose to not accept the affects of the wind during a hurricane. Does not mean it did not happen, but I choose not to believe it. Just like God. You may not believe it was God that did it, but that does not change whether or not it was God.

If there is no God or Jesus, what makes me different than you?

What if there is God and Jesus, now what makes me different than you knowing that I believe and you don’t?

92

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]

Pressure changes of air is wind. This argument is no different than “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?” riddle.

Of course the fall causes the pressure changes and vibrations which, if funneled into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, and the brain translates it, it becomes a sound.[/quote]

Exactly. Wind has not measurement. It is the air that is measured. Air traveling from High to Low pressure is wind.

You do not measure God, but you can measure the lives that are changed by God. I am one of those changed lives. You can not say, “God does not exist” because you have not experienced or felt the effects of God.
[/quote]
And you cannot say that God does exist. You can say you believe he exists. You can say that you interpret certain signs as evidence of his existence. But you cannot say that he does exist as though it were a statement of fact. Believing does not equal knowing. This is a fundamental element when it comes to the concept of faith. [/quote]

Our society rarely convicts someone based of loose circumstantial evidence. Most religious people agree, yet many (kneedragger) are willing to spread the damning of someone to hell for eternity based off the loose circumstantial evidence of a possible creator that may or may not align to the text they were raised on as a child. For what?

93

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Christians, Muslims etc will NEVER believe their theory of creation to be false no matter what evidence there is against it.
[/quote]

Because there has never been any indisputable proof against it. You have any?
[/quote]

Gods born of a virgin:
Augustus
Adonis
Korbyas
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Perseus
Zoroaster
Dionysus
Mithras
Buddha
Jesus

Jesus happens to be the most recent of the gods born of a virgin. Now this may not be indisputable evidence to you, but the fact is that the story of Jesus shares many similarities with other gods that predate him. So it would stand to reason that Jesus is a myth heavily influence by the myths of the past. Any evidence against this?
[/quote]

My question had nothing to do with Jesus being born of a virgin, but since you bring it up. this proof does not mean that Jesus was not born of a virgin. Just means that other claim to have been born of a virgin also. Too many prophecies of the Messiah were found completed in Jesus. Were they made up is hard to tell, but millions of people have died for this Man. People do not just willingly die for a lie. Of the 12 disciples, 10 were martyred for their faith, one hung himself because he betrayed the Messiah, and the other took care of Jesus’ Mother. Others say it was all about money and power. The disciples were poor just read the book of Acts. Everything they had was given to them. In fact Paul was a tent maker for the Roman Empire. That is how he got his citizenship as a Roman.

My question had to do with evidence or proof that creation is wrong. I wanted to know what your proof that creation did not happen the way the Bible said it happen. I personally do not buy into the notion that the 7 days are 24 hour periods. Push and I differ on this. Could it be that way yes. This is not the point of this discussion though.

I have seen the scientific theories about how the world came into existence, and I see it jiving with the Creation story in the Bible. In this scientific theory there are so many possible outcomes and everything lining up perfectly that without God we would not be here. If the earth had been a couple hundred miles closer or farther from the sun (no liquid water), if the earth had not collected enough mass (magnetic field without it we would have ended up like Mars), if the moon was larger or smaller (our orbit and the tilt of our earth for seasons and tides), if Jupiter’s gravity was not so powerful to pull in asteroids and comets (we would have more and more collisions), and on, and on, and on. This is the reason for the watch factory story. It was not by chance, but by a divine hand we are here.
[/quote]

The main difference I see between the scientific theories of our existence and the religious belief in a creator is that the former comes to their belief through observation and reason and the latter comes to their belief through blind faith in the ancient texts passed down to them by their parents (in most cases.) I wouldn’t say creationism is wrong, just that is unproven. No more proven than evolution. To go around saying people will suffer in hell for eternity because they don’t believe in a certain theory of creation is asinine IMO. Could there be a creator? I certainly am not ruling it out. Is the creator the one described in the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc.? About as probable as Jedi’s using the force in a galaxy far far away.[/quote]

At least you are not ruling it out. Just so you know the Torah and the Old Testament in the Bible are the same, unless you are using a Catholic Bible and they have 7 extra books that are added. To all the Catholics yes I know the argument you guys have about the Apocrypha.

About the Jedi’s that is fantasy and the George Lucas even says that. Now the Bible the people in it sure do seem more historical than many of the myths that people like to compare to the Bible. People that have PhDs in literature have read the Bible and state the Bible does not read like a myth, but as a historical text.
[/quote]

The religious texts of ancient Egypt and the Sumerians read like historical text, as well as most any other religion. If there is a creator, the chances it fits snugly into any of these religious beliefs is no more likely for one than the other.[/quote]

Then why has those religions not stood the test of time? The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 39 authors. No other religion can make those claims. Usually it is only one author during their life time or shorter.

94

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]ZJStrope wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]

Pressure changes of air is wind. This argument is no different than “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a sound?” riddle.

Of course the fall causes the pressure changes and vibrations which, if funneled into the ear, vibrates the ear drum, and the brain translates it, it becomes a sound.[/quote]

Exactly. Wind has not measurement. It is the air that is measured. Air traveling from High to Low pressure is wind.

You do not measure God, but you can measure the lives that are changed by God. I am one of those changed lives. You can not say, “God does not exist” because you have not experienced or felt the effects of God.
[/quote]
And you cannot say that God does exist. You can say you believe he exists. You can say that you interpret certain signs as evidence of his existence. But you cannot say that he does exist as though it were a statement of fact. Believing does not equal knowing. This is a fundamental element when it comes to the concept of faith. [/quote]

Our society rarely convicts someone based of loose circumstantial evidence. Most religious people agree, yet many (kneedragger) are willing to spread the damning of someone to hell for eternity based off the loose circumstantial evidence of a possible creator that may or may not align to the text they were raised on as a child. For what?[/quote]

When you say our society, I will presume the Western World? In Muslim countries Men can lie all they want about a woman and the women will be put to death even if 2-3 other women were with the accused woman the whole time. It is this sole reason I hate it when people compare the Bible to the Quaran.

96

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

…I believe the principles of science have more potential to provide answers than long held religious beliefs…

[/quote]

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

Believing does not equal knowing. This is a fundamental element when it comes to the concept of faith.

[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes this is what I believe. Could I be wrong? Sure. Do I go around telling people they will be damned to torture for eternity if they don’t believe as I do? No. That would be asinine.

97

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Well, there are a couple of things to say here. The first is that not all Christians believe in literal six day creation, some believe in evolution… [/quote]

Very true, and it’s really not my place to tell them otherwise. However, if I were a Christian, I think I’d agree with the hard-liners who say that these people aren’t “really” Christians.

Once you start tearing pages out, or calling something parable that doesn’t call itself such, you’ve taken a step down a road that leads to apostasy.

98

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

So if the first one has never happened, then why do people that were clinically dead have visions that confirm a Heaven and a Hell?
[/quote]

I am certain that you’re aware of scientific explanations for this. Also, See Varq’s point re: testimony in a courtroom. I said “satisfactorily prove,” and this kind of thing is a far cry from satisfactory.

When I was 13 and living in Europe, the big thing to do was to “put each other to sleep.” You’d basically go through a couple of motions and then you’d have someone hold your head in such a way that you lost consciousness. (Incredibly, incredibly stupid.) I agreed to do it once. As I lost consciousness, I saw a pair of big 'ole mammaries bouncing in front of my face.

You know what was on my addled, yearning 13-year old mind when I was an addled, yearning 13-year-old? Big 'ole bouncing mammaries. All the time.

Edit: for the record, I’m not saying that hell doesn’t exist. I’m saying that NDE’s do not prove that hell exists. Of course I will never prove it doesn’t exist, because I can’t. And consequently I of course cannot say that I’m sure it doesn’t.

99

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Have you seen the wind? I have never seen the wind, but I see the effects of the wind. [/quote]
But wind can be measured and felt. Wind is moving air and air can be measured, felt, weighed, etc. Can God be weighed? [/quote]

Wind can not be measured and felt, that is air. You can only measure and feel the effects of the wind. Just like God. You might have missed the effects of God, but I see him moving in the lives of people every day. It might not be big effect, but can be a small effect.

You can measure the pressure changes of air, but not wind.
[/quote]
Wind is moving air. The problem with your analogy is that you state you can measure and feel the effects of the wind and add, “just like God.” How do you measure the effects of God? How do you even prove these effects are from God? If we are both standing in the same place we will both feel the same effects from the wind. If you see and feel the effects of God and I don’t then how is it measurable by any sort of scientific standard? It seems that the effects of God are subjective whereas the effects of the wind are not. Just ask someone who lost his home to a hurricane. [/quote]

Just because you do not understand God does not mean he does not exist. Lets look at two drug addicts standing next to each other. One chooses to give his life to Christ and he gets off of drugs. The other does not and over doses and dies. I would say the measurement is God changed the life of both, but only one chose to make the change. I give money to an organization called Teen Challenge. Story after story about how God changed their lives. So you are saying those individuals did not feel the effects of God?

Me typing on this thread could be the work of God through me to help you feel the effects of God, but you are choosing not to feel it. I could choose to not accept the affects of the wind during a hurricane. Does not mean it did not happen, but I choose not to believe it. Just like God. You may not believe it was God that did it, but that does not change whether or not it was God.

If there is no God or Jesus, what makes me different than you?

What if there is God and Jesus, now what makes me different than you knowing that I believe and you don’t?
[/quote]

That’s not a fair analogy.
Your analogy has Person A: choosing to belive in something and then taking the necessary actions to CHANGE their situation.
While Person B: does not choose to believe in anything, and then does not take any action to change their situation, and continues on the same path.

9.5 out of 10 times person A will win out because of the actions taken. (regardless of motive)