[quote]nothingclever wrote:
The Muslims are natives. They’ve lived there long enough to count as such.[/quote]
2 points - First Islam is a religion not a national identity.
Second, possession is the basis for claiming rights to the land? So if Israel can hold on to the territory for another couple of hundred years - that makes them legitimate?
So in your equation, might makes right . . . interesting . . . [/quote]
You’re the one with an interesting view. Mine is just boring everyday logic. Would you really be alright with aboriginals kicking you off your land because they owned it first? Should all the governments of the world empty their coffers paying reparations to everything that moves for past transgressions? They’d be doing a disservice to their current citizens that weren’t involved in the acts. Your reasoning is the type of stuff that creates endless blood feuds and conflicts. If your great great great great grandfather killed mine I wouldn’t expect you to cough up some money to make up for the act assuming he never paid for it in any way. I wouldn’t feel I have a right to kill you for some good ol’ eye for an eye justice.
As for the national identity thing, actually, I believe a lot of them see it that way. [/quote]
The large wave of Jews who returned to the “Holy Land” purchased the land they settled on from the Turkish landowners who had ruled over the are for centuries. The Jews got the money by selling bonds to American Jews. They did not “invade” the land even though the British Foreign Office offered Jews a homeland for their participation during WW2. The Birtish had taken control of the Trans Jordan area after WW1(1921) as part of the mandate of Palestine.
The Jews did start to fight against the British when the Bristish were slow to honor their promise for a Jewish state. Until Israel was invaded when it declared independence no Arab lands were seized.
Isreal is in no way 100% innocent in its actions but pretending an army of Jews came and took the land from an existing Arab state is insane.
[quote]nothingclever wrote:
The Muslims are natives. They’ve lived there long enough to count as such.[/quote]
2 points - First Islam is a religion not a national identity.
Second, possession is the basis for claiming rights to the land? So if Israel can hold on to the territory for another couple of hundred years - that makes them legitimate?
So in your equation, might makes right . . . interesting . . . [/quote]
You’re the one with an interesting view. Mine is just boring everyday logic. Would you really be alright with aboriginals kicking you off your land because they owned it first? Should all the governments of the world empty their coffers paying reparations to everything that moves for past transgressions? They’d be doing a disservice to their current citizens that weren’t involved in the acts. Your reasoning is the type of stuff that creates endless blood feuds and conflicts. If your great great great great grandfather killed mine I wouldn’t expect you to cough up some money to make up for the act assuming he never paid for it in any way. I wouldn’t feel I have a right to kill you for some good ol’ eye for an eye justice.
As for the national identity thing, actually, I believe a lot of them see it that way. [/quote]
This is so stupid it’s ridiculous. You spend all this time defending the right of the current inhabitants. THE ISRAELIS ARE THE CURRENT INHABITANTS. All of this hypothetical defense you are employing applies to the Israelis. If it was wrong to kick out the Arabs who had invaded, it’s now just as wrong to kick out the Israelis. How can you be so blind to the hypocrisy of you views. Do you just hate the Israelis that much? [/quote]
THE ISRAELIS AREN’T THE ONLY CURRENT INHABITANTS.
Why do I have to hate Israelis? It’s like you’re brainwashed along with plenty of other people here. I accept that other people have inhabited the land before them, are still in it and are trying to get them out of it or to establish their own rule. Just because I don’t think nations should be paying ridiculous reparations to conquered peoples doesn’t mean I think those groups don’t have a right to fight their occupiers.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me say this again for the addle-brained, ostrich historians: many if not most of the Palestinians who are in the nation of Israel now have been there no longer than many of the Jews. Israel is a land of relatively recent immigrants regardless of whether they pray to Jehovah or Allah.[/quote]
Which are more foreign, Jews from anywhere in the world or Muslims from right next door?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
That wasn’t what I was saying.
The part about pandering to a fairy tale is simply the reasoning behind the acceptance of Israel in the first place - idiots who think the land belongs to the Jews because of some imaginary covenant with an imaginary God.
However, I’m not going to espouse some bullshit about “giving the land back”, there are people living there who have known no other home. Taking that away from them would be just as wrong.
Maybe, just maybe, you should stop making unfounded assumptions about my posts, or any other posts for that matter.[/quote]
So the historical claim makes no difference to you - do you even know the demographics of the region prior to 1948?
Maybe you should actually start posting something with some real content . . .
If Ms. Thomas had a deep-seated hatred of Jews, I’m certain she was entirely able of stating ‘the Jews of this world deserve the programs and destruction of 1940’s era Germany and Poland’.
If she really didn’t like Israel, I’m confident she would have state something along the lines of ‘The jews in Israel need to GTFO and give the land back to the Palestinians’.
I think it’s fairly obvious she hates Israel.
I think it’s less fairly obvious she hates Jews. Perhaps there’s corroborating evidence to support the idea that she also hates Jews in America, and elsewhere in the world, but from this clip, I think it’s pretty focused on the state of Israel and it’s Jewish population.
I do not beleive disagreement with the right of existence of the state of Israel is tantamount to anti-semitism. It’s highly correlated, but not tantamount.
[quote]Otep wrote:
If Ms. Thomas had a deep-seated hatred of Jews, I’m certain she was entirely able of stating ‘the Jews of this world deserve the programs and destruction of 1940’s era Germany and Poland’.
If she really didn’t like Israel, I’m confident she would have state something along the lines of ‘The jews in Israel need to GTFO and give the land back to the Palestinians’.
I think it’s fairly obvious she hates Israel.
I think it’s less fairly obvious she hates Jews. Perhaps there’s corroborating evidence to support the idea that she also hates Jews in America, and elsewhere in the world, but from this clip, I think it’s pretty focused on the state of Israel and it’s Jewish population.
I do not beleive disagreement with the right of existence of the state of Israel is tantamount to anti-semitism. It’s highly correlated, but not tantamount.[/quote]
[quote]nothingclever wrote:
The Muslims are natives. They’ve lived there long enough to count as such.[/quote]
2 points - First Islam is a religion not a national identity.
Second, possession is the basis for claiming rights to the land? So if Israel can hold on to the territory for another couple of hundred years - that makes them legitimate?
So in your equation, might makes right . . . interesting . . . [/quote]
You’re the one with an interesting view. Mine is just boring everyday logic. Would you really be alright with aboriginals kicking you off your land because they owned it first? Should all the governments of the world empty their coffers paying reparations to everything that moves for past transgressions? They’d be doing a disservice to their current citizens that weren’t involved in the acts. Your reasoning is the type of stuff that creates endless blood feuds and conflicts. If your great great great great grandfather killed mine I wouldn’t expect you to cough up some money to make up for the act assuming he never paid for it in any way. I wouldn’t feel I have a right to kill you for some good ol’ eye for an eye justice.
As for the national identity thing, actually, I believe a lot of them see it that way. [/quote]
This is so stupid it’s ridiculous. You spend all this time defending the right of the current inhabitants. THE ISRAELIS ARE THE CURRENT INHABITANTS. All of this hypothetical defense you are employing applies to the Israelis. If it was wrong to kick out the Arabs who had invaded, it’s now just as wrong to kick out the Israelis. How can you be so blind to the hypocrisy of you views. Do you just hate the Israelis that much? [/quote]
THE ISRAELIS AREN’T THE ONLY CURRENT INHABITANTS.
Why do I have to hate Israelis? It’s like you’re brainwashed along with plenty of other people here. I accept that other people have inhabited the land before them, are still in it and are trying to get them out of it or to establish their own rule. Just because I don’t think nations should be paying ridiculous reparations to conquered peoples doesn’t mean I think those groups don’t have a right to fight their occupiers.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Let me say this again for the addle-brained, ostrich historians: many if not most of the Palestinians who are in the nation of Israel now have been there no longer than many of the Jews. Israel is a land of relatively recent immigrants regardless of whether they pray to Jehovah or Allah.[/quote]
Which are more foreign, Jews from anywhere in the world or Muslims from right next door?[/quote]
The Israelis are the only inhabitants of the state of Israel, jewish and non-jewish alike.
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”[/quote]
Yeah well, being absolved of your real or imaginary sins at someone elses expense should raise a red flag right there.
as a follow-up - Israel is one the smallest geographically-speaking nations in the world - Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan Syria, et al - have millions of square miles more territory - why not carve out a little slice from any one of those nation (even the friggin empty Sinai Penisula) for a Palestinian State - or just absorb them into one those nations - No one ever talks about the fences keeping them in Gaza from the Eqyptian side . . . .
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”[/quote]
Yeah well, being absolved of your real or imaginary sins at someone elses expense should raise a red flag right there.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”[/quote]
Yeah well, being absolved of your real or imaginary sins at someone elses expense should raise a red flag right there.
Absolution rarely comes that cheap.
[/quote]
And zooooommm - the point goes right by you . . .
[/quote]
No, it doesnt.
Yes, Jews had it hard.
They are dead now.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
[/quote]
tsk tsk tsk . . . you can’t even see the irony . . .
If you cannot accept as true the rationale for Israel’s point of view or right to exist, you destroy the very same logic that purports to explain the rationale for a “Palestinian” point of view or the right of a “Palestinian” state to exist. If you negate the rights of Israel as based on invalid arguments, you have to negate the rights of “Palestine” as well - since they are predicated on the same argumentsm but with substantially weaker foundations for the “palestinian” state.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
[/quote]
tsk tsk tsk . . . you can’t even see the irony . . .
If you cannot accept as true the rationale for Israel’s point of view or right to exist, you destroy the very same logic that purports to explain the rationale for a “Palestinian” point of view or the right of a “Palestinian” state to exist. If you negate the rights of Israel as based on invalid arguments, you have to negate the rights of “Palestine” as well - since they are predicated on the same argumentsm but with substantially weaker foundations for the “palestinian” state.
[/quote]
I will not defend positions that are not mine.
You assuming that I hold them does not make it so.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”[/quote]
Yeah well, being absolved of your real or imaginary sins at someone elses expense should raise a red flag right there.
Absolution rarely comes that cheap.
[/quote]
And zooooommm - the point goes right by you . . .
[/quote]
No, it doesnt.
Yes, Jews had it hard.
They are dead now.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
[/quote]
tsk tsk tsk . . . you can’t even see the irony . . .
If you cannot accept as true the rationale for Israel’s point of view or right to exist, you destroy the very same logic that purports to explain the rationale for a “Palestinian” point of view or the right of a “Palestinian” state to exist. If you negate the rights of Israel as based on invalid arguments, you have to negate the rights of “Palestine” as well - since they are predicated on the same argumentsm but with substantially weaker foundations for the “palestinian” state.
[/quote]
I will not defend positions that are not mine.
You assuming that I hold them does not make it so.
[/quote]
So if you don’t agree with either the Israeli or Palestinian POV - why are you in the discussion at all?
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You would be hard-pressed to find any other group of people persecuted throughout millenia of history merely for being who they are than the Jewish people. No other group has faced the forced removal, relocation and extermination attempts from multiple nations and empires since the Assyrian empire that the Jews have faced. For sheer dogged determination to survive a consistent cordinated effort to abuse and destroy them, the Jews deserve a least one place of peace that they can call their own, and why should that place not be their historic homeland - inhabited by Jews since their father Abraham ilved in that land?
Seriously - as a great big global - “We’re really sorry we’ve treated you worse than crap for the last 4,000 years”[/quote]
Yeah well, being absolved of your real or imaginary sins at someone elses expense should raise a red flag right there.
Absolution rarely comes that cheap.
[/quote]
And zooooommm - the point goes right by you . . .
[/quote]
No, it doesnt.
Yes, Jews had it hard.
They are dead now.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
The Jews alive today do not have it remotely as hard and you wish to make others suffer to right wrongs that are beyond fixing.
If you feel that “the Jews” deserve anything, pay for it out of your own pocket, not out of the pocket of a Palestinian.
[/quote]
tsk tsk tsk . . . you can’t even see the irony . . .
If you cannot accept as true the rationale for Israel’s point of view or right to exist, you destroy the very same logic that purports to explain the rationale for a “Palestinian” point of view or the right of a “Palestinian” state to exist. If you negate the rights of Israel as based on invalid arguments, you have to negate the rights of “Palestine” as well - since they are predicated on the same argumentsm but with substantially weaker foundations for the “palestinian” state.
[/quote]
I will not defend positions that are not mine.
You assuming that I hold them does not make it so.
[/quote]
So if you don’t agree with either the Israeli or Palestinian POV - why are you in the discussion at all?[/quote]