[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
Israel boarding boats in international waters is illegal, as much as I support Israel they need to follow the law.[/quote]
Then you might want to consider that our country does it too.
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=41842[/quote]
then we need to stop it too, we need to follow the laws.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
How do you know that the US and Israel aren’t following the law?
If the laws indeed aren’t being followed as you surmise are you emphasizing that international laws preempt a country’s right to defend itself?
Have you considered the sinking of a South Korean ship by the North and if so are carrying the banner and issuing the battle cry of “Follow international law” as loudly in that case as in the Israeli case?
[/quote]
They and us are breaking international law, if we don’t like international law change it(or better yet leave other people alone).
North Korea is a joke, complaining about them following international law at this point is not worth it because they never will and we will never take them out because it would hurt the military industrial complex.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
How do you know that the US and Israel aren’t following the law?
If the laws indeed aren’t being followed as you surmise are you emphasizing that international laws preempt a country’s right to defend itself?
Have you considered the sinking of a South Korean ship by the North and if so are carrying the banner and issuing the battle cry of “Follow international law” as loudly in that case as in the Israeli case?
[/quote]
They and us are breaking international law, if we don’t like international law change it(or better yet leave other people alone). [/quote]
Cite examples.[quote]
North Korea is a joke, complaining about them following international law at this point is not worth it because they never will and we will never take them out because it would hurt the military industrial complex.[/quote]
What?[/quote]
I am saying if you are boarding ships on international water you are breaking international law, especially if they are relief ships. If Gaza is so scary why hasn’t Israel wiped them out?
How long has North Korea been the boogy man? it would take us what 2-3 weeks to destroy them? If they are so scary why haven’t we gotten rid of them. How long have we been over there? 50 years, let North and South Korea fight it out already.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
If you were CiC and you suspected or knew that a freighter with chemical or nuclear weapons was sitting off the coast of…say Virginia…just outside our territorial limit would you have the Navy “illegally” board the vessel?
How do you know they are relief ships if someone doesn’t board and search them? Take their word for it? If so, why?
John, c’mon man, are you really this shallow? Really? I could barely type a response to this nonsense. You’re going Pittbull on us. [/quote]
First off Israel has a blockade up without there being war declared. If it doesn’t like the rocket attacks declare war and end this, sure the anti-semites will come out but the majority will recognize that they where getting attacked and acted in there own defence.
Nothing wrong with acting in self defence, but if you want to be part of the UN and have to follow international law. You can’t just break it whenever you feel like it. Either force a change or leave the UN it is that simple.
They where a relief ship, if you don’t believe them get something from the UN that would allow you to search all incoming vessels. Again want to be part of the UN follow the rules.
And why is me calling out the North Korea scam pittbullish? Because I can call a spade a spade? North Korea is a fucking joke and if they where really this big of a threat they would have been wiped out decades ago. They are nothing more then a nation that is left around to scare people into funding the military industrial complex. Why not load up South Korea with a bunch of weapons and let them take out North Korea?
I always get this nonsense everytime I ask questions about Iran or North Korea, why can’t someone give me an answer.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Dustin.[/quote]
More like:
Flounder[/quote]
Negative. I have been consistent on this topic for many years actually.
But hey, thanks for posting a picture of a fish. That task seems to suit you best.[/quote]
No, my task, quite clearly, is to explain the simplest things to you; viz.,
"flounder:
Function: intransitive verb
…
1 : to struggle to move or obtain footing : thrash about wildly
2 : to proceed or act clumsily or ineffectually"
[/quote]
And I understood you.
Negative. I have been consistent on this topic for many years actually.
[/quote]
So lets see. This thread was about Helen Thomas, and the carefully hidden bigotry of the media. Some posters–JoeGood, Jewbacca, myself–offer historical perspective, points that may be refuted.
You do not have the historical mind-muscle to argue. Instead, you offer “opinion.” Opinion based on The Received Wisdom. Not one refutation by point or counterexample, only the self-righteousness that comes from a closed mind.
So being consistent–consistently close-minded, consistently deaf, consistently unable to question one’s premises, consistently biased, “for many years”–being consistent is not necessarily a rare and great and commendable virtue, Dustin. And you have shown it so consistently.
[quote]
Flounder, schmounder. The same thing I have said here, I did in the “Israel/smugglers” thread.
BTW, I have also noticed you don’t contribute much anymore to this forum other than to drop in and post kewl one-liners. Why is that ?[/quote]
Perhaps because I choose not to repeat myself–endlessly and consistently.
Was that kewl enough for you? But, please, Dustin…Flounder on!!!
[quote]pushharder wrote:
<<< Good grief, a conservative, isolationist libertarian that doesn’t understand the shortcomings and the absolute utter stupidity of suggesting the state of Israel put its security in the hands of the UN. >>>[/quote]
That was pretty bad John. I am not the unconditional fan of Israel that many conservatives are, but neither would I deny them the right to defend themselves and apart from maybe Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the very last place on Earth I would send them for security would be the UN. On a bad day they’re practically the same thing.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Nothing wrong with acting in self defence, but if you want to be part of the UN and have to follow international law. You can’t just break it whenever you feel like it. Either force a change or leave the UN it is that simple.
[/quote]
Ok. And where is the proof international law was violated? And if it is a breach of international law then it should be followed up in international courts. Innocent until proven guilty. Hint: International law is complex (and personally I think it is useless :)).
[quote]John S. wrote:
North Korea is a fucking joke and if they where really this big of a threat they would have been wiped out decades ago. They are nothing more then a nation that is left around to scare people into funding the military industrial complex. Why not load up South Korea with a bunch of weapons and let them take out North Korea?
I always get this nonsense everytime I ask questions about Iran or North Korea, why can’t someone give me an answer.[/quote]
Ok I will bite. North Korea has enough mobile artillery pointed at Seoul to wipe it from the face of the earth. The artillery is sitting within spitting distance of Seoul, but is also mobile and in mountainous terrain. As such there is no easy way to counter it.
So yes the US could easily wipe out North Korea. However, a good 10 million South Koreans would be killed in the opening volleys.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Both sides do fucked up shit to each other. Both sides have their fair share of racists, bigots, loonies, etc. The thing that Americans should ask themselves is why do we have to get involved? Does this in anyway help out real everyday Americans?
You know it’s kind of like a cop going to a domestic dispute. The cop gets there and the guy is beating the shit out of his woman. The cop takes the guy, puts him handcuffs and is about to drag him away when the woman jumps on the cops back and starts clawing at him for taking her boyfriend away. Then when he gets out of jail, she gets back together with him again.
No matter how good your intentions, chances are things are going to turn up badly for you when you stick your nose in other peoples business.
Let’s stop living in fantasy land shall we?[/quote]
A rudimentary knowledge of the history of this conflict would be of great assistance to you in your quest for an easing of your frustration.[/quote]
What knowledge would that be? Since it is quite clear from many of your posts that you espouse the W. Bush foreign policy philosophy of “permanent war for permanent peace”, I wonder what that could be.
I don’t buy into the U.S. media’s portrayal of Israel as this brave little beacon of democracy that is truly worthy of billions of subsidies of U.S. taxpayer dollars. (What we know about). They are not the 51st state. They are a foreign power. And we DO NOT have any official binding treaty with Israel. We DO however have a treaty with Turkey however in the form of NATO. If Turkey went to war with Israel, theoretically we would have to support them if they invoked the provisions of the agreement. We wouldn’t of course.
But beyond the matter is this, do your own research. I don’t buy into anything one single news source, especially the American MSM tells me. I read as much as I can and then make my own opinion.
And as far as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes…let me sum the whole thing up. About 70 years ago, people that were living on the land for 2000 years were displaced and driven off. Now they are mad and want their land back. The other side deems they are the true owners. Neither side is willing to budge. Fighting ensues.
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Both sides do fucked up shit to each other. Both sides have their fair share of racists, bigots, loonies, etc. The thing that Americans should ask themselves is why do we have to get involved? Does this in anyway help out real everyday Americans?
You know it’s kind of like a cop going to a domestic dispute. The cop gets there and the guy is beating the shit out of his woman. The cop takes the guy, puts him handcuffs and is about to drag him away when the woman jumps on the cops back and starts clawing at him for taking her boyfriend away. Then when he gets out of jail, she gets back together with him again.
No matter how good your intentions, chances are things are going to turn up badly for you when you stick your nose in other peoples business.
Let’s stop living in fantasy land shall we?[/quote]
A rudimentary knowledge of the history of this conflict would be of great assistance to you in your quest for an easing of your frustration.[/quote]
What knowledge would that be? Since it is quite clear from many of your posts that you espouse the W. Bush foreign policy philosophy of “permanent war for permanent peace”, I wonder what that could be.
I don’t buy into the U.S. media’s portrayal of Israel as this brave little beacon of democracy that is truly worthy of billions of subsidies of U.S. taxpayer dollars. (What we know about). They are not the 51st state. They are a foreign power. And we DO NOT have any official binding treaty with Israel. We DO however have a treaty with Turkey however in the form of NATO. If Turkey went to war with Israel, theoretically we would have to support them if they invoked the provisions of the agreement. We wouldn’t of course.
But beyond the matter is this, do your own research. I don’t buy into anything one single news source, especially the American MSM tells me. I read as much as I can and then make my own opinion.
And as far as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes…let me sum the whole thing up. About 70 years ago, people that were living on the land for 2000 years were displaced and driven off. Now they are mad and want their land back. The other side deems they are the true owners. Neither side is willing to budge. Fighting ensues.
[/quote]
Everybody lives on conquered land. Second, the Israelis aren’t the ones who conquered it, that was England’s doing. It is Israeli land until someone conquers it from them. This notion that they are somehow inherently evil for simply existing where they exist is just bullshit. I don’t see a long line of near by arab nations helping out the Palestinians. Oh they’ll ship them weapons to do their (other arab nations’) dirty work, but they won’t lift a fucking finger to help the people. The fact is NOW this land is Israel. If you want it to not be Israel anymore then you must declare war and win it, period. They are surrounded by people who want them dead, not for occupying land, but for being Jews. If Israel were muslim nation, living under sharia law there would be no issues, whether rightful or not, whether won by conquest or not, whether “stolen” or not. Israel’s hostility is simply self defense. We don’t live in a place where terror is a way of daily life. None of us could imagine what it must be like to live in that situation. I have to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. Do they step over the line sometimes, yes. But if they appear weak or vulnerable, it could lead to slaughter.
The fact of the matter is that if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, and renounce the violence against Israel, there would be peace. There would be no sanctions, the occupation would end. The terms has been agreed to by Israel many times. All the Palestinians have to do is renounce violence against Israel. That’s it. If they would do that, many nations including Israel and the U.S. would be ready to aid those people in establishing a government and an economy.
Think about how easy that is. You don’t have to like your neighbor, just pledge to live in peace. That is all they have to do.
I do feel sorry for the predicament they are in. But when you tie hamas bandanna’s around your kids’ heads and have them chant “Death to Israel” my pity only goes so far. They are putting hate, ideology and fantasy over the well being of the people.
Most of the woes of the Palestinians are self inflicted. The power to stop it is theirs alone
[quote]John S. wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
If you were CiC and you suspected or knew that a freighter with chemical or nuclear weapons was sitting off the coast of…say Virginia…just outside our territorial limit would you have the Navy “illegally” board the vessel?
How do you know they are relief ships if someone doesn’t board and search them? Take their word for it? If so, why?
John, c’mon man, are you really this shallow? Really? I could barely type a response to this nonsense. You’re going Pittbull on us. [/quote]
First off Israel has a blockade up without there being war declared. If it doesn’t like the rocket attacks declare war and end this, sure the anti-semites will come out but the majority will recognize that they where getting attacked and acted in there own defence.
Nothing wrong with acting in self defence, but if you want to be part of the UN and have to follow international law. You can’t just break it whenever you feel like it. Either force a change or leave the UN it is that simple.
They where a relief ship, if you don’t believe them get something from the UN that would allow you to search all incoming vessels. Again want to be part of the UN follow the rules.
And why is me calling out the North Korea scam pittbullish? Because I can call a spade a spade? North Korea is a fucking joke and if they where really this big of a threat they would have been wiped out decades ago. They are nothing more then a nation that is left around to scare people into funding the military industrial complex. Why not load up South Korea with a bunch of weapons and let them take out North Korea?
I always get this nonsense everytime I ask questions about Iran or North Korea, why can’t someone give me an answer.[/quote]
Most people are brainwashed by the propaghanda. Just look at this pushharder. What a joke…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Both sides do fucked up shit to each other. Both sides have their fair share of racists, bigots, loonies, etc. The thing that Americans should ask themselves is why do we have to get involved? Does this in anyway help out real everyday Americans?
You know it’s kind of like a cop going to a domestic dispute. The cop gets there and the guy is beating the shit out of his woman. The cop takes the guy, puts him handcuffs and is about to drag him away when the woman jumps on the cops back and starts clawing at him for taking her boyfriend away. Then when he gets out of jail, she gets back together with him again.
No matter how good your intentions, chances are things are going to turn up badly for you when you stick your nose in other peoples business.
Let’s stop living in fantasy land shall we?[/quote]
A rudimentary knowledge of the history of this conflict would be of great assistance to you in your quest for an easing of your frustration.[/quote]
What knowledge would that be? Since it is quite clear from many of your posts that you espouse the W. Bush foreign policy philosophy of “permanent war for permanent peace”, I wonder what that could be.
I don’t buy into the U.S. media’s portrayal of Israel as this brave little beacon of democracy that is truly worthy of billions of subsidies of U.S. taxpayer dollars. (What we know about). They are not the 51st state. They are a foreign power. And we DO NOT have any official binding treaty with Israel. We DO however have a treaty with Turkey however in the form of NATO. If Turkey went to war with Israel, theoretically we would have to support them if they invoked the provisions of the agreement. We wouldn’t of course.
But beyond the matter is this, do your own research. I don’t buy into anything one single news source, especially the American MSM tells me. I read as much as I can and then make my own opinion.
And as far as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict goes…let me sum the whole thing up. About 70 years ago, people that were living on the land for 2000 years were displaced and driven off. Now they are mad and want their land back. The other side deems they are the true owners. Neither side is willing to budge. Fighting ensues.
[/quote]
Everybody lives on conquered land. Second, the Israelis aren’t the ones who conquered it, that was England’s doing. It is Israeli land until someone conquers it from them. This notion that they are somehow inherently evil for simply existing where they exist is just bullshit. I don’t see a long line of near by arab nations helping out the Palestinians. Oh they’ll ship them weapons to do their (other arab nations’) dirty work, but they won’t lift a fucking finger to help the people. The fact is NOW this land is Israel. If you want it to not be Israel anymore then you must declare war and win it, period. They are surrounded by people who want them dead, not for occupying land, but for being Jews. If Israel were muslim nation, living under sharia law there would be no issues, whether rightful or not, whether won by conquest or not, whether “stolen” or not. Israel’s hostility is simply self defense. We don’t live in a place where terror is a way of daily life. None of us could imagine what it must be like to live in that situation. I have to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. Do they step over the line sometimes, yes. But if they appear weak or vulnerable, it could lead to slaughter.
The fact of the matter is that if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, and renounce the violence against Israel, there would be peace. There would be no sanctions, the occupation would end. The terms has been agreed to by Israel many times. All the Palestinians have to do is renounce violence against Israel. That’s it. If they would do that, many nations including Israel and the U.S. would be ready to aid those people in establishing a government and an economy.
Think about how easy that is. You don’t have to like your neighbor, just pledge to live in peace. That is all they have to do.
I do feel sorry for the predicament they are in. But when you tie hamas bandanna’s around your kids’ heads and have them chant “Death to Israel” my pity only goes so far. They are putting hate, ideology and fantasy over the well being of the people.
Most of the woes of the Palestinians are self inflicted. The power to stop it is theirs alone[/quote]
You dodged the main point of my entire post and went off on a rant about Israel. You know what? I don’t give two fucking shits about either side. Let them sort their own problems out.
My main point, which few on this thread or this site for that matter has addressed with any degree of competency, has been WHAT DO AMERICANS GET OUT OF THIS?
This endless and unquestionable support for Israel has been nothing but a thorn in the side of American foreign policy. It undermines American efforts throughout the world.
Israel is a country with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, a vibrant economy, and a very educated populace. Why are Americans subsidizing them with our tax dollars?
If individual Americans want to donate their own money then by all means go ahead. But enough is enough. No more foreign aid, no more “War on Terror”, no more empire building. America is broke. Let’s face up to that reality and have a foreign policy that reflects that.
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
You dodged the main point of my entire post and went off on a rant about Israel. You know what? I don’t give two fucking shits about either side. Let them sort their own problems out.
My main point, which few on this thread or this site for that matter has addressed with any degree of competency, has been WHAT DO AMERICANS GET OUT OF THIS?
This endless and unquestionable support for Israel has been nothing but a thorn in the side of American foreign policy. It undermines American efforts throughout the world.
Israel is a country with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, a vibrant economy, and a very educated populace. Why are Americans subsidizing them with our tax dollars?
If individual Americans want to donate their own money then by all means go ahead. But enough is enough. No more foreign aid, no more “War on Terror”, no more empire building. America is broke. Let’s face up to that reality and have a foreign policy that reflects that.
[/quote]
Wasn’t trying to dodge the your point. I just went on a diatribe about Israel. We do get a few things from them. Militarily, they are strategically placed and we have use of their land and air space without the enemies knowing what they are doing. They share a great deal of intelligence, which is top notch. They knew Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. I remember watching the news and hearing that the Israeli’s telling the world publicly, who dun it. And of course we do trade with them as well, it not purely one sided. Lastly the Mossad is willing to do the dirty work we are not, so there is that too.Is it worth the crap we take, who knows. But they are very important to us apparently. Just look at obama’s behavior towards them. In the beginning of the presidency he was pretty hostile to them, and before that he was clearly no friend of theirs. But now it’s almost a reversal. He is very tolerant. When they attacked the aid ship, notice how carefully they chose their words. They condemned that people were dead, that’s it. As for anything else, it was we need more info.
I would say they are probably more important than we know.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
You dodged the main point of my entire post and went off on a rant about Israel. You know what? I don’t give two fucking shits about either side. Let them sort their own problems out.
My main point, which few on this thread or this site for that matter has addressed with any degree of competency, has been WHAT DO AMERICANS GET OUT OF THIS?
This endless and unquestionable support for Israel has been nothing but a thorn in the side of American foreign policy. It undermines American efforts throughout the world.
Israel is a country with one of the most advanced militaries in the world, a vibrant economy, and a very educated populace. Why are Americans subsidizing them with our tax dollars?
If individual Americans want to donate their own money then by all means go ahead. But enough is enough. No more foreign aid, no more “War on Terror”, no more empire building. America is broke. Let’s face up to that reality and have a foreign policy that reflects that.
[/quote]
Wasn’t trying to dodge the your point. I just went on a diatribe about Israel. We do get a few things from them. Militarily, they are strategically placed and we have use of their land and air space without the enemies knowing what they are doing. They share a great deal of intelligence, which is top notch. They knew Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. I remember watching the news and hearing that the Israeli’s telling the world publicly, who dun it. And of course we do trade with them as well, it not purely one sided. Lastly the Mossad is willing to do the dirty work we are not, so there is that too.Is it worth the crap we take, who knows. But they are very important to us apparently. Just look at obama’s behavior towards them. In the beginning of the presidency he was pretty hostile to them, and before that he was clearly no friend of theirs. But now it’s almost a reversal. He is very tolerant. When they attacked the aid ship, notice how carefully they chose their words. They condemned that people were dead, that’s it. As for anything else, it was we need more info.
I would say they are probably more important than we know.[/quote]
They are very important for corporate america.