Lions get killed by female Tigers:
Tiger vs Polar bear?
Haha dicks read Tom Lawlor’s response before you accuse people of acting like brotards.
To hell with lions and bears. The big match is between Wolverine and Batman.
that faber story was bad ass
[quote]idaho wrote:
To hell with lions and bears. The big match is between Wolverine and Batman. [/quote]
Batman. Too smart. Logan alternates between being a dumbass to being a ninja killer. Consistency wins.
[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
It is intensely difficult to fight more than one person at a time. I have done it, and not very successfully.
Unlike in the movies, guys don’t wait and take you one on one giving you time to set up and attack - they swarm you all at once. It’s nearly impossible to act “offensive” in these situations - I did, and got three or four times from literally four different directions before being pulled down to the ground.
The only reason I didn’t get stomped (or worse) was because I have good friends.
The reason that the boxer above is successful is because he does the only thing you can do when fighting more than one person - retreat while striking, don’t get caught up in the group or surrounded, and try and move so that the guys end up coming at you one-on-one, evening the odds for the moment.
Had he slowed down, or they’d cornered him, they’d have fucked him up.
Movies are movies. UFC fighter or not, three (or more guys) will fuck one person up badly. Movies are just movies.[/quote]
Hmmm, I guess I can’t argue with you if you’ve actually tried taking on 4 guys at once before in real life. However, you’re an experienced amateur boxer but you’re probably not like 6-5, 265lbs. Wouldn’t a well-trained fighter that huge be hard to drag down to the ground and be able to one-hit any of the average guys?[/quote]
The perfect guy for that situation as you describe, would be Alistair Overeem. hes just about the biggest mma fighter there is. hes about 6’5 and over 265, not an ounce of at on him. and is recognized for being the best stand up fighter on the planet(His recent K1 grand prix win proves that. Even a group of guys would have trouble with him. He has so many weopons to hit them with its insane.
Agreed. Batman takes it on technique and smarts.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Haha dicks read Tom Lawlor’s response before you accuse people of acting like brotards. [/quote]
I read it. Still totally disagree. Street does not equal Octagon.
As I said in that thread, I’m even willing to give the huge UFC fighter a folder. I bet he never gets a chance to open it and still gets stomped.
Again, if you’ve never fought more than one guy, don’t tell me how easy you think it would be.
It’s not. I know it’s not. It’s next to impossible. Anything aside from experience with this is just hyperbole and conjecture.
Sorry, that’s the way it is.
If Bas couldn’t do it…
[quote]rundymc wrote:
If Bas couldn’t do it…[/quote]
“the people of Santa Poco can conquer their own personal El Guapo, who also happens to be the actual El Guapo!”
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Haha dicks read Tom Lawlor’s response before you accuse people of acting like brotards. [/quote]
This post defines acting like a “brotard.”
Manbearpig
[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
I was watching the Expendables basketball court scene (where Jason Statham easily beats down 6 guys). It’s obviously just an exagerated movie scene. But what if it was one of the larger UFC heavyweights instead of Jason Statham? Like say Dave Herman. A buddy and I were debating this. He says the crowd wins because they could just swarm the heavyweight, drag him to the ground, and clobber him on the ground. I thought the heavyweight would take it. (And this is assuming no weapons since Statham doesn’t bust out the knife until after the fight is over)
With boxing footwork/handspeed and greater reach, it wouldn’t be very hard to take out 1-2 guys right off the bat. Then when the remaining guys get close, uppercuts/hooks/knees would be devastating. The average dudes would probably eat elbows to the back of the head if they went for his legs (I’m presuming they wouldn’t be able to floor the heavyweight with a fast, wrestling-style takedown that avoids the elbows).
This is just a dorky hypothetical but it’ll be fun to get feedback![/quote]
If half-dozen guys are average everyday softies,then they are done.If they are tough men who can fight,heavyweight is done.
I’m responding to the posts in Tom Lawler’s thread so as not to continue hijacking that thread.
With all due respect to mr Lawler I think it’s important to remember that there is a big difference between what happens in the ring/octagon and what happens when it’s for real. There is often very little, possibly no, warning or “are you ready?” signal of the impending assault until your opponent is within “bad breath” range. There are no “off limits” targets (rabbit punches, kicks and punches to the groin, strikes to the throat and eyes are fair game); there are no predetermined rounds with enforced rests for you to catch your breath and reasses your fight strategy, and the list goes on.
Like I said, if the 6 guys are organized, surround the heavyweight right off the bat there is no way in hell that he is able to process all of the limbs flying at him from every conceivable angle. All it takes is one of those strikes to land on a vital target (kick to the groin, finger to the eyes, strike to the occipital area) and it’s all over for him.
On the other hand, in order to win the hw must keep from getting surrounded (unless he’s in the middle of an empty parking lot and just runs for it right away this is highly unlikely against 6 attackers). He must completely incapacitate his attackers with 1 maybe 2 strikes each (things like clinching and throwing knees or any kind of grappling maneuvers spell certain defeat against those types of odds as it only makes you less mobile and easier for the rest of the group to get to you). And he must avoid getting hit at all in any of his vital targets while doing this. Honestly even with a knife there are actually very few “instant kill” targets on the human body (most attacks will simply spring leaks in his attackers but will still likely give them enough time to overwhelm him, and once they get the knife then it’s R.I.P for the HW.
I suggest that anyone who doubts how remarkably distorted the time distance variable becomes while dealing with multiples or the sheer improbability of being able to simultaneously process the sensory data coming from 6 attackers and being able to avoid their attacks should try suiting up in some protective gear (something like Fist, Redman, or High Gear if you have access to it) and then have 6 people go after you and see how you do (and this includes HW’s and highly skilled fighters). And that’s without the risk of eye pokes, bites, and all kinds of other “illegal” tactics that a truly motivated attacker might do to you in a real fight. Of course, your training partners must also be motivated to win, otherwise of course they’re going to become easily discouraged and quit, but I think we all realize that.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Haha dicks read Tom Lawlor’s response before you accuse people of acting like brotards. [/quote]
This post defines acting like a “brotard.” [/quote]
I hate being wrong too, if I’m a brotard does that just make you plain dumb?
Great post Sento.
People who have never been in a real brawl with multiple opponents should not be talking about what it’s like in a real brawl with multiple opponents. That shit gets out of hand so quick, and your tunnel vision is so intense, and you’re so fucking hyped up with adrenaline, things like range and distance and awareness become very, very difficult to focus on.
As someone who has been through this scenario for absolute real, and was only saved by the actions of my closest friend, I can say that people that think this is really feasible without being extraordinarily lucky are assholes.
Well now I get to agree with Sento in addition to the other usual suspects.
Also, trying to shit on/de-rail the Lawler thread was beyond the pale in my opinion.
Finally, a sort of summary of what goals to pursue in order to try to keep your insides from being your outsides in a 6 on one situation:
1.) DON’T FUCKING BE THERE. This is the best option. 6 against one certainly meets the definition of disparity of force (meaning a qualifier for using lethal force in your defense). I just read, meaning tonight, a line in a S.M. Sterling novel pertaining to how big a deal being outnumbered is. It was
[quote]S.M. Sterling’s wrote:
The advantage grows as a square of the difference, other things being equal.[/quote]
I make no claims as to the math, but that sounds about right. So 6 isn’t 6 times better than one. It is 25 times better. Hell, if we say the HW is worth two he is still at a 9X dis-advantage.
Re-read Jim’s post about guy’s breaking down and crying in TRAINING. Let it sink in. Re-read Irish’s posts about maybe no longer walking the earth if it hadn’t been for additional help showing up.
Don’t show up to a 6 on one fight. That is the crime scene. Avoid it. In Jim’s scenario, the best way out of that kobayashi maru scenario (Yeah I went Star Trek), 3 trained guys after you in an enclosed space, is to take your chances with the guy telling you to walk through the door.
2.) If you fucked up #1 because of a lack of prescience UN-ASS THE AREA. Get somewhere else. If you are standing alone facing 6 people you are standing at the scene of your own attempted murder. Get gone.
Seriously; if you can, you should. Leave, immediately. Figure out where safety is and start re-locating yourself there. This will be your primary goal from here on out. Everything supports this.
3.) If you cannot magic yourself away, treat this as a life or death matter. RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG. If you have anything that could be used as a weapon get it into your hands, NOW. Do not wait to be on the ground, bleeding, or losing consciousness to arm yourself. Re-read Jim’s post about not being able to draw a gun in time. Let it sink in.
You are BURRIED behind the 8 ball here. Even being armed doesn’t come close to putting you on even footing, but it may give you enough to address #2 again.
From #3 on the only limits to put on yourself as far as hurting/injurying/killing your attackers are going to be put there by the answers to “Does this further my goals?” and “What is the best I can manage without compromising myself?” Chances are you will be unable to one shot stop/kill with your hands or even a blade, as Sento pointed out already. However the reason is that you are going to be moving/trying to break contact too much for follow up/ coup de gras.
There will be no “warning shots”.
If they wanted warning shots they should have worn vests.
4.) GET HELP. Be the 6 not the HW. Idaho mentioned “back up” in his post, he had good reason. If you can get it there that is a good idea. I suppose if you had the option of rolling deep than the whole “six against my lonesome” wouldn’t happen, so I am putting it here on the list. Dialing 911, screaming you head off, whatever…If you are LEO or have some kind of radio/body alarm/panic button use it. Drawing attention is likely a good thing.
A Note on “Back UP”. It has to be of use to be useful. If you have someone with you that cannot handle themselves, than they are only good for drawing fire. If they are someone you feel you need to protect than you are worse off than if you were alone. I am not saying you abandon someone under your protection. But this may have just turned into your “hill to die on.”
However it is not enough to merely light the Bat signal.
5.) STAY CONSCIOUS AND MOBILE for as long as possible. If you lose mobility, you are grabbed, you fall down, whatever…make your priority to get moving again. It is very easy for multiple opponents to wreck your shit. They don’t even have to be good, or lucky, they can blunder into doing serious damage or even killing you. Do not let them get time to figure out something that works.
Six on one is not a “fight”. It is not a “match”. Odds like that tend to be a slaughter. And like in a slaughter house, the killing gets done on the floor. Do not go to the ground willingly. If you hit the ground, make it a priority to get up and get moving again.
Try to keep the group all to one side of you. Continually address points 2-5. If you can get to a safety at any point do so. If you can arm yourself, do so. If you can get help do so. Do not stop fighting. Do not give up.
Whatever techniques you can use to accomplish these goals, great.
As much as a WTF as I feel this thread was, Irish, Sento, Jim, and Idaho made some damn good posts so I think it wasn’t a total waste.
Regards,
Robert A
Keep in mind you guys are talking about motivated attackers who might know what they are doing. Lawlor was only pointing out that most seem to over estimate the capabilities of average guy. Like in the movie scene, Statham takes the first shot, he is the instigator and he takes one out before they even get time to organize themselves.
If we are talking about a similiar scenario, it is 6 average guys who didn’t know they were going to be in a fight before the heavyweight showed up. I agree 100% that if it were the other way around and those 6 guys would jump the heavyweight and catch him off guard, he would probably end up dead pretty quick, but lets say a guy like Alistair Overeem is in there to hurt or kill 6 average guys who most likely haven’t been in that many fights and are probably not motivated enough to beat the life out of him and risk getting killed in the process, don’t you guys think that once Reem would start swinging for the home run the rest of the guys would at least shit themselves pretty bad and make them hesitate a bit before swarming him?
[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:
but lets say a guy like Alistair Overeem is in there to hurt or kill 6 average guys who most likely haven’t been in that many fights and are probably not motivated enough to beat the life out of him and risk getting killed in the process, don’t you guys think that once Reem would start swinging for the home run the rest of the guys would at least shit themselves pretty bad and make them hesitate a bit before swarming him?[/quote]
Why is he attacking 6 men? Usually, in a mob assault the mob is the agressor. That means they’re all motivated to violence. Also, people with zero experience in violence rarely engage in mob assaults. So you have to figure that if you have 6 average mob assailants (as opposed to 6 average guys) you’ve already got a willingness to do violence and at least a passing familiarity with the same.
But even if I’m standing around with 5 random guys between the ages of 18 and 35 from the state of NC, and Reem shows up and starts swinging, Reem is going to die of multiple stab and gunshot wounds. You can never be sure that the group of unarmed “average” guys you jumped is not a) armed and b) well trained in the sudden use of overwhelming violence. The odds in some areas are better than 50% that a person you pass on the street has at least a knife on him. And the only way you’ll find out is by bleeding out.
Willingly initiating a mob assault on yourself has got to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of, and it’s the reason we do the multiple attacker drills in the first place: to teach students to call for backup and use their guns instead of trying to be Jet Li.
But yeah, I suppose if I bust into a nursing home and jump 6 random guys, I could take them. So what? All that proves is that you can eventually reducto ad absurdum this scenario into a win for either side.
[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:
Keep in mind you guys are talking about motivated attackers who might know what they are doing. Lawlor was only pointing out that most seem to over estimate the capabilities of average guy. Like in the movie scene, Statham takes the first shot, he is the instigator and he takes one out before they even get time to organize themselves.
If we are talking about a similiar scenario, it is 6 average guys who didn’t know they were going to be in a fight before the heavyweight showed up. I agree 100% that if it were the other way around and those 6 guys would jump the heavyweight and catch him off guard, he would probably end up dead pretty quick, but lets say a guy like Alistair Overeem is in there to hurt or kill 6 average guys who most likely haven’t been in that many fights and are probably not motivated enough to beat the life out of him and risk getting killed in the process, don’t you guys think that once Reem would start swinging for the home run the rest of the guys would at least shit themselves pretty bad and make them hesitate a bit before swarming him?[/quote]
Obviously this is a completely hypothetical situation and I’m sure we could all come up with different conditions which would change the outcome. Like, “what if it were 6 average quadraplegics? Then the HW would murder them.” Or, “what if it were 6 average octaganarians? Then I’d again give the HW the nod.” Or, "what if the HW snuck into a frat house at 2 in the morning and just murdered 6 average guys in their sleep.
That’s HW 6, dead guys nothing." Or “what if the HW is armed with a Tommy gun and just walks into a room and mows down everyone in it. Heck then he could probably take on/out 20-30 average guys.”
You are using a scene from an action movie as evidence or at the very least like it’s a realistic scenario for suggesting that a HW (any HW MMA fighter) would be a match for 6 “average” (which is something I think that needs to be defined and is somewhat subjective)guys. It’s THE MOVIES! They are trying to make it entertaining and portray Statham as a badass, of course they are going to set up the circumstances so that Statham can win. But it’s Hollywood, not an accurate portrayal of reality.
By that logic, what if the HW was really a cybernetic (living tissue over a metal endoskeleton) organism sent back from the future to murder these 6 average guys to prevernt the humans from rising up against the machines? Dude, then those 6 average guys would be totally screwed wouldn’t they.