[quote]malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Let me get this straight: you want to turn these corporations completely loose, and trust that these men will produce outcomes beneficial for society? And I’m the idealistic one?
What do you want, an all-powerful, ever-reaching government with its hands in every part of our lives? Is that beneficial for society?
Yes, because that’s the only alternative.
/sarcasm
Well now that you got the sarcasm out of the way, how 'bout telling what you think IS beneficial for society.
[/quote]
I’m certainly not Ryan, but the argument here seems to be if we should move to a completely free market economy without any regulations or so much as a central bank. I would say that’s extremely extreme (like that?) and not really worth talking about outside of libertarian ivory towers.
So we have options, I suppose, on the internet: either complete government control or completely free markets with nothing in-between. Outside of the internet, however, there may be other alternatives.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
bigflamer wrote:Ryan is but an idealistic young student. You simply must factor this in when discussing the issues with him.
Yes, you simply must factor that in. Otherwise, you’d have to deal with all that data that disagrees with you.
Let me get this straight: you want to turn these corporations completely loose, and trust that these men will produce outcomes beneficial for society? And I’m the idealistic one?
[/quote]
In an effort to produce outcomes beneficial to themselves, yes, they inadvertenly produce outcomes beneficial to society. Take a deep breath and try to recover from that idea, I know that must be a tough one for you to digest. Profit motive gives serious impetus to research and innovation, which benefits, wait for it,…society.
Do you think that government is so benevolent that it is clearly looking out for the benefits of society? HA! It all comes down to the individual, every time. It’s easy for statists to forget that governments are comprised of individuals, individuals who always end up looking out for themselves. Empower the individual, and you will empower society.
Take as much time as you need to wrap your head around this.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Let me get this straight: you want to turn these corporations completely loose, and trust that these men will produce outcomes beneficial for society? And I’m the idealistic one?
What do you want, an all-powerful, ever-reaching government with its hands in every part of our lives? Is that beneficial for society?
Yes, because that’s the only alternative.
/sarcasm
Well now that you got the sarcasm out of the way, how 'bout telling what you think IS beneficial for society.
I’m certainly not Ryan, but the argument here seems to be if we should move to a completely free market economy without any regulations or so much as a central bank. I would say that’s extremely extreme (like that?) and not really worth talking about outside of libertarian ivory towers.
So we have options, I suppose, on the internet: either complete government control or completely free markets with nothing in-between. Outside of the internet, however, there may be other alternatives. [/quote]
Agreed. Again, and as always, the truth is always in the middle somewhere. We cannot get away from some government involvement in the economy. However, the point of diminishing returns arrives very quickly when discussing government involvement in any economy. The federal government does a fairly good job of fucking shit up with a quickness, and I certainly am wary of handing over on sixth of America’s economy to the feds. gulp The very idea seddens me a great deal.
I’m certainly not Ryan, but the argument here seems to be if we should move to a completely free market economy without any regulations or so much as a central bank. I would say that’s extremely extreme (like that?) and not really worth talking about outside of libertarian ivory towers.
So we have options, I suppose, on the internet: either complete government control or completely free markets with nothing in-between. Outside of the internet, however, there may be other alternatives.
Agreed. Again, and as always, the truth is always in the middle somewhere. We cannot get away from some government involvement in the economy. However, the point of diminishing returns arrives very quickly when discussing government involvement in any economy. The federal government does a fairly good job of fucking shit up with a quickness, and I certainly am wary of handing over on sixth of America’s economy to the feds. gulp The very idea seddens me a great deal.
[/quote]
This is a great starting point to move on to an ACTUAL discussion. Be careful, here on PWI that probably won’t happen. Bigflamer, what reforms do you think need to be done?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
If that is the sole argument, I guess it’d be time to join the chinese communist party.
Cause never, ever, has a government improved the lives of so many people like they did.
Also, it is absurd that you cherry pick the rise of the middle class yet ignore the cruelty of 16th century warfare which was waged mainly by power-hungry aristocrats and clergy.
Or do you mean to reinstitute their iron-fisted reign?[/quote]
That would actually be an advantage because those feudal wars were very limited in scope.
What democracies have brought us are ideological and therefore total wars and those are a whole different ball game. The only thing comparable to that are the religious wars of that time which were also ideological and not the relatively harmless feudal land grabbing sorties.
Then, the Chinese government was so friendly to get out of the way. Maybe you can only do that if you already have absolute power.
Also, you are making my argument for me that the 16 century was way worse than this so where is the problem?
I guess it’d be about time to move the clan out of Magdeburg
…so I guess that’s not really an argument?
Like it or not:
Through technological and social progress, the state or government entity can now be very powerful.
We both won’t live long enough to see another massive transformation of society.
You know the flaws (you preach them all the time and rightfully so), yet mayhap you can draw a little satisfacttion from the main advantage our modern societies do provide?
Abundant wealth and unheard of upward social mobility?
Yay capitalism?
The claim that capitalism has not made the lives of millions people better is so blatantly absurd if you compare our lives to that of 16/17 century peasants.
My god yes this is true.
…but wait, I thought “we” weren’t capitalists…hmmm… [/quote]
Well no, we werent, and that was why life was brutish, nasty and short.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military
You ungrateful bastard
Surely the money spent on flags and uniforms was well spent?
And the parades, ah, the parades.
They even have shiny metal thingies that you get for being a successful hired killer.
Shiny metal thingies!
And ribbons!
Utopian.[/quote]
No that is realism
Perfectly normal human beings will kill other human beings for shiny thingies and a pat on the back.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Let me get this straight: you want to turn these corporations completely loose, and trust that these men will produce outcomes beneficial for society? And I’m the idealistic one?
What do you want, an all-powerful, ever-reaching government with its hands in every part of our lives? Is that beneficial for society?
Yes, because that’s the only alternative.
/sarcasm
Well now that you got the sarcasm out of the way, how 'bout telling what you think IS beneficial for society.
I’m certainly not Ryan, but the argument here seems to be if we should move to a completely free market economy without any regulations or so much as a central bank. I would say that’s extremely extreme (like that?) and not really worth talking about outside of libertarian ivory towers.
So we have options, I suppose, on the internet: either complete government control or completely free markets with nothing in-between. Outside of the internet, however, there may be other alternatives.
[/quote]
Central banks were abolished before and for good reasons.
Corporations, governments, banks, I dont care, noone should have that kind of power.
One step at a time;
First, I pointed out that I find your position awkward to point at the 16th or 17th century.
You can hardly compare these times.
(especially feudalism, which is already gone in 16/17 century)
And, Vita was anything but dolce.
You can hardly dispute that.
Secondly, so why are you not a communist when supposedly they are doing a great job in getting out of the way?
Seems to me you can’t decide if you’re supporting the essence of an idea to cheering what practically factually comes out. So the answer’s either communism or libertarianism or what?
Sidenote:
Modern democracies command armies of greater political entities, that is all. The communist legions were often bigger then Nato’s.
And: The Thirty-Years-War is as total, brutal and (on the surface) ideological as you can get, in fact, the often mentioned American Civil War looks rather timid compared to it.
[quote]orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military
You ungrateful bastard
Surely the money spent on flags and uniforms was well spent?
And the parades, ah, the parades.
They even have shiny metal thingies that you get for being a successful hired killer.
Shiny metal thingies!
And ribbons!
Utopian.
No that is realism
Perfectly normal human beings will kill other human beings for shiny thingies and a pat on the back.
[/quote]
I think the military does what it does for reasons deeper than superficial rewards.
[quote]orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military
You ungrateful bastard
Surely the money spent on flags and uniforms was well spent?
And the parades, ah, the parades.
They even have shiny metal thingies that you get for being a successful hired killer.
Shiny metal thingies!
And ribbons!
Utopian.
No that is realism
Perfectly normal human beings will kill other human beings for shiny thingies and a pat on the back.[/quote]
They will also kill other human beings for such trivial things as “freedom”, “the right to self rule”, “throwing of the yoke of oppression”, etc. In my very humble opinion, those are a few of the very shiny things in life. A great many soldiers who fought for the freedom of a great many people, are buried in the green fields of France. These men fought and died to put an end to the evil we knew as the third reich. Now, I realize that men also kill in the name of greed, lust, power, etc. But your generalizations in this matter are immature at best.
Orion, I like what you have to say generally on economics, but this is ignorance of the highest order. I would politely ask you to fuck off at this point.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
I think the military does what it does for reasons deeper than superficial rewards.
[/quote]
The members of any military are nothing more than chess pieces for the advancement of the power elite.
The people who serve in the military never benefit from the actions they perform. The power elite knows this which is why the “shiny thingies” are important for the uniforms – otherwise they would have nothing to show for committing mass murder.
This is insane.INSANE. We’re going to spend a TRILLION bucks to cover 40 million people…most of whom are illegals and a lot of whom dont fucking deserve coverage.
And to that, we’re going to tax the shit out of people that do work, and run massive debt.
[quote]Valor wrote:
This is insane.INSANE. We’re going to spend a TRILLION bucks to cover 40 million people…most of whom are illegals and a lot of whom dont fucking deserve coverage.
And to that, we’re going to tax the shit out of people that do work, and run massive debt.
Good bye America…we loved you so.[/quote]
This is the problem we are having in California, and we are now bankrupt. Ever since Prop 187 was ruled unconstitutional, and is now giving free healthcare and welfare checks to illegals, the cost has been estimated at $4-6 billion on a state level. We are now trying to have those benefits ended, or at the very least limited to a maximum of 5 years.
Also, government here has increased by 40% since 2003, and we are now bankrupt. This is what happens when you expand government on such a huge level. You need massive funds to either increase or even maintain those programs.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Valor wrote:
This is insane.INSANE. We’re going to spend a TRILLION bucks to cover 40 million people…most of whom are illegals and a lot of whom dont fucking deserve coverage.
And to that, we’re going to tax the shit out of people that do work, and run massive debt.
Good bye America…we loved you so.
This is the problem we are having in California, and we are now bankrupt. Ever since Prop 187 was ruled unconstitutional, and is now giving free healthcare and welfare checks to illegals, the cost has been estimated at $4-6 billion on a state level. We are now trying to have those benefits ended, or at the very least limited to a maximum of 5 years.
Also, government here has increased by 40% since 2003, and we are now bankrupt. This is what happens when you expand government on such a huge level. You need massive funds to either increase or even maintain those programs. [/quote]
Thats just the thing… UHC is NOPT going to improve things overall… What it WILL do is transfer tones of money and power to the FED. Naked power grab.
Mass is fighting the same problem.
You want to fix HC? Provide economic opportunity, and education…
[quote]Therizza wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military
You ungrateful bastard
Surely the money spent on flags and uniforms was well spent?
And the parades, ah, the parades.
They even have shiny metal thingies that you get for being a successful hired killer.
Shiny metal thingies!
And ribbons!
Utopian.
No that is realism
Perfectly normal human beings will kill other human beings for shiny thingies and a pat on the back.
I think the military does what it does for reasons deeper than superficial rewards.
[/quote]
In the best of all cases maybe.
That is not good though, that is sad.
I find no joy in the idea that someone travels 6000 miles to kill strangers because he somehow believes that that means “defending freedom”.
Id rather have people kill people for shiny thingies than for empty phrases.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
orion wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
orion wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
I don’t like it when politicians use taxpayers dollars to waste on a murderous military
You ungrateful bastard
Surely the money spent on flags and uniforms was well spent?
And the parades, ah, the parades.
They even have shiny metal thingies that you get for being a successful hired killer.
Shiny metal thingies!
And ribbons!
Utopian.
No that is realism
Perfectly normal human beings will kill other human beings for shiny thingies and a pat on the back.
They will also kill other human beings for such trivial things as “freedom”, “the right to self rule”, “throwing of the yoke of oppression”, etc. In my very humble opinion, those are a few of the very shiny things in life. A great many soldiers who fought for the freedom of a great many people, are buried in the green fields of France. These men fought and died to put an end to the evil we knew as the third reich. Now, I realize that men also kill in the name of greed, lust, power, etc. But your generalizations in this matter are immature at best.
Orion, I like what you have to say generally on economics, but this is ignorance of the highest order. I would politely ask you to fuck off at this point.
[quote]Valor wrote:
This is insane.INSANE. We’re going to spend a TRILLION bucks to cover 40 million people…most of whom are illegals and a lot of whom dont fucking deserve coverage.
And to that, we’re going to tax the shit out of people that do work, and run massive debt.
Good bye America…we loved you so.[/quote]
Don´t give up so soon!
Once the Chinese have too much money they too will want socialism back!
And, if everyones hand are tied behind their backs we have an even playing field again.
