So I have been on my current protocol for probably three months and felt ok but was not consistent or anything to write home about. My hair has been thinning a bit and I had also come across a new article that mentions they have directly linked to testosterone converting to estrogen is where libido primarily comes from. So I decided to cut out the anastrazole, however, I have a high conversion to estrogen already and as a lot of you know the hcg aromatizes more estrogen. So this first week I decided to do 350iu of hcg every four days In with my test protocol and felt great initially. Much better. But after the second hcg shot the following day I slumped. I think my estrogen may be going a little too high. As My estrogen was 24 even on .25 anastrazole a week. And when I was doing another protocol with one large shot a week my estrogen seemed to get high. So my current is .23 ml of 200mg/ml three times a week and then the hcg. I’m wandering if I keep test where it is because my test is around 1100 (so it can drop some) and only did one shot of 350iu of hcg a week If that’s enough to keep body producing on its own? I just don’t want to bring the A.I. back into the equation but I’d like to keep some natural production still.
Huh? People here are at 70, 80, even 100 on e2 and are fine. The old 20-25 range or whatever it used to be that everyone was shooting for was total bs. Ignore it. Forget about it.
What issues do you “think” are e2? Typing from my phone so I can’t do a long reply right now but I’m sure someone else will shortly.
The short answer is forget about e2. Inject often enough and a high enough dose and give it some time and you’ll 99.9% be fine.
Well my libido drops and I cannot get an erection. It’s fine first few days but seems to be after that second hcg shot each week is what I’m seeing. Are we sure there is no such thing as too high? I’m fine to give it time. Just thought might make sense to cut the hcg some but only if 350iu a week is still enough to be helpful.
I wouldn’t say there is no limit, though some probably would. IMO it’s more if it gets way out of balance with T. I doubt your E2 is ever getting super high if 0.25mg/week is getting you down to the 20’s though.
It’s worth giving it 4-6 weeks to see if things improve. Everyone goes straight to blaming e2 for literally any issue they have on TRT.
For most people it will work itself out and you’ll be better off than you were on the AI, assuming you’re injecting often enough and with enough T.
Last labs when I wasn’t using A.I but was using hcg I was sitting around 54 on estradiol. I’ll see if I have any changes then. Still any input on how little hcg you can take and get the positive effects?
That was a year ago with larger single shot a week however
My E2 is in the 60’s, once a week or twice a week injections - same difference. HCG, no different. No HCG, no different. 1/4 tab of anastrozole twice a week for 2 weeks, E2 is <8, which means none detected. I did it purely on speculation to have labs and see what it did, as at the time a certain someone was pushing that nefarious range and 1mg per 100mg as a dose. I was sceptical and still researching, so I guinea pigged myself. Here’s the deal - if you have issues like you are describing then E2 is possibly a secondary cause. Meaning, there is correlation, but it isn’t specifically the problem, they just happen to be riding in the same car. Some guys have a ton of issues specifically realted to HCG. Not the levels changes, the analogue itself doesn’t sit well in the system for some reason. You might also react negatively to the hormone fluctuation and require patience to ride it out until everything settles down at the new constant. You might not be able to use HCG without consequences - which means you might want to reconsider it’s use outside of actually trying to conceive a baby.
Well my wife is pregnant so I’m ok there. But I also was having significant shrinkage and became totally sterile last time I eliminated and dr told me that I’d need to be careful because I could possibly get to where fertility wouldn’t come back.
I just thought it was a good idea to keep normal function as well but I guess I could try to cut it out. You think if I first tried to scale it back to 350iu a week that’s enough to still help but maybe eliminates my problems?
Just curious. What all did you have to do to regain fertility? I am in the middle of trying for a baby now is why I ask and have been taking 200IU’s of HCG every day and sperm is low but certainly not 0. 4.9M/ml
What worked for you in your case?
Um, why every day? And why so little if you want to conceive? 500IU EOD, or even 1500IU EOD would make a lot more sense with HCG…
I got off everything for a month. Then I started a new protocol with test and was also doing 1050iu of hcg a week
I had a lot more anxiety on 500 3x a week so I figured 200 every day was about the same total dose for the week, and I felt better, so gave that a try. I’ve since seen some reports that higher amounts less often do a better job of getting ITT high enough to help with sperm production, so I switched back to that yesterday and am going to try to power through. Barely slept last night though so that sucked.
I posted an article a week or two ago on the topic of libido and aromatase in the brain. I am glad some folks are reading it and taking it seriously. Doctor Nichols shared that article with me.
Keep in mind that when you modify a dose on hormone therapy you have to give it time. You will have ups and downs for a few weeks and sometimes several weeks 4-8. New guys need 3 months max.
If you were on an AI you should slowly cut that out over a few weeks or couple months time. After that changes is complete you start making other changes. Don’t make more than once change at a time. Guys have tons of problems when they quite AI cold turkey. When they slowly lower the dose they have an easier time transitioning away. I would start there.
You might not need ot change a thing and start to feel great by just removing the AI. Guys usually say “I Had no clue i could feel this good on trt without an AI. i thought i already felt great”.
Also a couple other points. You don’t need to keep the testicles operating while on trt. They will not be damaged if you stop hcg for 5 years and then decide to start using HCG for fertility issues. There are countless examples of men who do this and rarely do we hear a man saying he started HCG and could not get his woman pregnant.
The men who had issues before trt will have issues after. The men who are fertile before are fertile during treatment. That seems to be what i see with men when they discuss fertility on trt.
Furthemore, don’t think about estrogen numbers and whether they are high or not. That’s going to make this entire transition very hard. You need to have confidence in your bodies ability to take care of itself and aromatase as needed. It’s very common for guys who kept their estrogen lower to have a 1-2 month period of feeling like junk, but during that period they start realizing the benefits and feeling of wellbeing as they get further from their last dose. Most seem to feel better in days time, and then it just gets better every few days.
Hang in there and just don’t over think it. the body just needs a sort of reclaibration and this takes time.
So what is enough if your not trying to currently get pregnant
350iu every 5-7 days?
Lots of people skip HCG altogether. That + FSH or HMG pretty much returns fertility even in cases or body builders that have done much much harsher compounds and huge amounts of T for long periods of time.
If you really want to keep taking it then sure, try that and see how it works for you. It should be enough to help from a keeping things going perspective. Not sure if you’ll feel better or worse because of it though. That part seems very different for everyone.
Keep in mind there are lots of men who don’t tolerate HCG very well (myself included).
If you have 25 pg/mL with 0.25mg of Arimidex a week, you are NOT a high aromatizer by any stretch of the imagination. I’m working with one now who has 527 pg/mL. HE is a high aromatizer. You are not. Your issues are not E2 related.
Well I’m not sure how all of it calculates out but I was taking 700iu of hcg last labs w/ .25 anastrazole a week and roughly i think it comes out to roughly 135mg of test a week and estradiol was mid 20s. I think I will try 350iu a week then of hcg with my test protocol instead of 700, and see if less hcg with some time makes me feel better. If it still doesn’t then I’ll attempt to eliminate hcg altogether and see what it does. I sure don’t want to get back on the AI If I don’t have to. I suspect it could have been contributing to me not feeling great and my hair thinning as well
I would imagine I’ll be in mid 50s if I stuck with same protocol minus the AI. If I go down to 350iu hcg it would maybe be 40s? Not sure but I think that protocol would make sense to try as long as 350iu hcg a week is enough to keep me from having too much issues with shrinkage and going completely sterile