Americans are among the least marginalized people in the world. There are marginalized subcultures within our society to the extent that anyone is marginalized here, but they are not “men,” they are people of both genders who are born into generational poverty, and particularly those people who are non-white.
Most conservative people are against affirmative action and quotas and such, because they correctly say that equality of opportunity is the goal, not equality of outcome.
Personally, I would be for an expansion of support for poor people, but again, that’s not a popular conservative position.
Are you looking for equality of outcome in the romantic/sexual realm? Does that really seem achievable to you?
When you refer to society what exactly are you referring to? I am using society, in this context, to essentially mean government because, imo, a lot of the vices you mentioned are the results of individual decisions that add up over a population of 320+ million and not a systemic issue caused by the structures of our society, generally.
In what ways do you think society is providing an environment for these things?
How? Was it right when taking the sovereignty of the individual(which should not be conflated with hyper-individualism) into consideration?
Brick, we’ve been cool with each other for years and the reason why I’ve not argued with you in this topic is because I find some things you write a little troubling.
Take this for example.
What does the last part mean? It can be construed by some as call for eugenics when taking into account your last post on this topic:
If I told you other developed countries have solved the problem with birth rates by allowing immigration from other countries with overpopulation problems, I’m not sure what kind of reply I’m going to get.
I’m well aware of people in poverty considering I worked for nearly fifteen years in largely non-white, poverty-stricken towns in addition to realization of some of the financial details of respective residents. I’ve actually been the only or one of five white or white-appearing employees on staffs of hundreds of people in such towns. My dad and uncle and grandfather owned stores in such towns. So I actually socialized in them too. I actually have pictures in which it wouldn’t be hard to spot me.
I was talking about men while realizing poverty and marginalization effects both genders because I’m focusing on men in much of my talk here.
I’m not a conservative or a liberal. In fact I recognize many of the same issues liberals do that conservatives largely ignore or don’t appreciate.
And I’m disagreeing with you that men have become marginalized. Bitterness marginalizes the men you’re talking about, not society. How we know this is that the vast majority of people are going about their life-stage stuff in the usual course of things.
If we want to talk about the impact of tech devices on youth - the isolation, decline of social skills and tolerance for boredom, and compulsive use - we can talk about that, but that concerns me just as much, possibly more, in parent/child relationships as in romantic. That wasn’t the premise of this debate, though - it was that women have gotten off track to the detriment of men.
I’m promise I’m really not having a go at you or trying to pick apart what you wrote just to win an argument. I’m just stating what I really think pertaining to your posts and the topic at hand. We’ve known each other for quite a long time here. We can always agree to disagree on this topic.
Yes, a big “me too” to this. I’m really only after exchanging ideas. Certainly I think my ideas are the correct ones and I hope to convince others, but my goal is not to make people feel that I’m disrespecting their views.
In the case of @greenboy, I disrespect his use of sarcasm and name-calling as well as the back-pedaling and denying. His views I simply disagree with. As I think @pfury said above (may have been someone else), many of his observances are fine, it’s the cause and the solution with which I take issue.
Same here. Now I just think he’s an idiot. I view the root of his opinions and ideas as separate from @BrickHead’s so what I wrote to him does not reflect my view of brick.
@dt79
It’s all good! You know I like you. I actually don’t have a qualm with anyone here. I’ll try to get back to you when I’m at my laptop at home later on because my response will require some thinking.
I’ll say here that I arrived at a collectivist mindset—while respecting inherent difference in abilities and achievements of individuals and actually wanting them—simply from up-close observation of communities and peoples that are doing darn good from collective actions. And from this, their individuals are doing darn good!
You are talking about a communal extension of a basic family unit, which can be fairly be described “communist” in nature. I’m very familiar with this given my background. Which is well and good as long as it is a group of like-minded individuals who voluntarily band together pursuing a common goal.
The common thing I have observed for these to work, at least in the short run, are cultural and religious homogeneity. Do you feel that this can be applied to the US given it’s population, variety of races and cultures, freedom of religion and ideology etc without State intervention?
Also, “collectivization of sex” is a separate issue altogether. INCELS talk about the elite, namely, people who look like @flipcollar(lol), having access to, and the ability to hoard “sex”, i.e, women, leaving the lower rungs on the ladder with none. It is socialist when suggesting State intervention, and communist if it is a call-to-action for a widespread social movement. It’s also rather oppressive to women. Probably only a little because I hate women.
How do socialists normally justify their actions? Easy. You can see idiots like AOC virtue signaling all day in the media.
Everyone is stupid, helpless and needs saving whether they know it or not. This includes men, and women before the age of 35.
Absurd doomsday scenarios. Declining birth rates and men not getting laid will immediately turn into Children of Men.
Identifying a common villain and rallying support against them. Parroting talking points and bending them for this agenda.
Claiming the position of victimhood.
Capitalism is bad.
Whining about the need to be factually, rather than “morally” correct, which is an appeal to emotion rather than err… facts.
I don’t particularly like crowded bars, but if I wanted to, I could find dozens of bars and clubs packed shoulder to shoulder every night of the week in Dallas. I don’t know what smaller towns are like, but night life is fucking booming in Dallas. No shortage of people going out every single night. How young professionals are out til 2am 3-5 nights a week is beyond me, but I know it happens.
That being said, if people are drinking less, that’s fantastic. I"m neutral on the idea of people meeting randoms out less, I have no idea if that is a good or bad thing. And people go out less because home entertainment is 100000x better than it used to be. I’d certainly rather stay in and watch netflix most nights than go out. I don’t see that as a bad thing.
I didn’t say never. Nothing is absolute. Of course it happened. Just not particularly often. Certainly not enough to discourage me. It was an annoyance, that’s it. I think I’m savvier than most, so we can agree that I probably fared better in this area than others. But again, other people suck at a lot of things. They suck at making profiles, they suck at reading others. No surprises there.
I’ll ask you the same thing: what IS the cost? There was no discernible cost to me. I didn’t become more socially awkward. I went the opposite way. Going on more first dates, paying attention to what worked and what didn’t in conversation prior to a first date, and then on dates, made me better socially. Because again, this is just a tool. If you try to put a nail into the wall with a screwdriver, you’re probably not gonna get very far. Doesn’t mean a screwdriver or a nail is a bad tool. You’re just using it poorly. I used the tools at my disposal intelligently. I can’t say the same for anyone else. Perhaps people who don’t invest the time or energy into learning how to properly utilize dating apps are getting exactly what they deserve for their lack of effort.
that’s just silly. If anything, there are weak MEN saying this. Women fucking love it. Do you really believe that big, strong men, who are also good men overall, likeable personalities, etc are being shunned? The shunning is towards big/strong/fast men who have nothing else to offer. Every now and then I meet a woman who doesn’t prefer physiques like mine, but that is a slim minority. You’ve talked about biology a fair bit here. That’s simple biological attraction.
Obviously that was my opening line.
In all honesty, you know what I heard more than anything else on dates? ‘I really like your smile.’ Without question, the compliment I got the most. Women want to date a happy person. Truth be told, this was a thing I learned 15+ years ago, when I was interested in the PUA stuff. Reading about first impressions, etc. I learned to always be smiling when I walked into a bar, or when meeting someone. Just fucking smile a lot. We all physiologically respond well to smiles. It makes us smile. It gives us a sense of well being. When someone smiles at you, you feel a little happier, a little more special yourself, because you associate the other person’s smile with something you said or did.
I think people who think the world is set up against them probably don’t smile all that much.
There’s research that the physical act of smiling, laughing and improving your posture legitimately improves your mood. If you can make yourself truly happy more often, people will want to be around you more often.
But who here is talking about self-pitying men? You guys are the ones that keep throwing in the incel crap. Not us, not me. I’m trying to discuss this from a broader, general perspective, which are yes, based on my view, which you can choose to believe it is narrowly inefficient or not. We don’t need to talk about self-pitying men, specifically.
If you want to talk about incels, we can do so in a broader sense, and why those movements pop up.
You are right that I exaggerated, but that is based on where I live. Should I have used on average and meant all of the U.S? No, I shouldn’t have. But my point still remains.
And funny you brought up the accounting thing… yes, most of the new accountants coming out of college are women, and the big 4 lovvvvvvvvvve themselves a cute female accountant lol.
You don’t need to post numbers showing STEM dominates. They are desperately trying to push women into those fields as if they are struggling for other opportunities lol
but I didn’t say down to their ass. Then explain to me why long hair is still extremely popular in other countries? Surely, those women still have to deal with the same hassle.
I knew there’d be one guy in here to do this. Bravo.
apparently I did offend her because we back to throwing personal insults. I love that I can fire some of you up like this, it is pretty funny.
What you think is back-pedaling I think is correcting misunderstanding, or elaborating my points. Are we having a conversation or a political debate on CNN?
Also, what causes do you object to? You see all these other problems but you don’t think anything I say in regards to the current state of females in the U.S is wrong or off
Oh, I’m in total agreement with you biology will always win. That is why women don’t know what they actually want, and if they go on this cruise of “I want to be superwoman because this is the message I’ve been given” I want to “lean in”, and all that good stuff MOST of them will either back out, or be miserable. I said most, not all. That is what I believe.
so because second world countries emphasis looks for women still that’s why they have longer hair? So you’re admitting longer hair is more attractive? And even so, why is that a bad thing for a woman to still emphasize looks?
And highly educated women/career women don’t exist in latin countries? really? Come on. The difference is those women can still have their hair long without being judged for lack of ‘professionalism’. Although, according to some associates this is changing as they want to look more “American professional” for outside businesses. And guess what? the men hate it lol
Yes, I know how much it costs for hair. Even my hair and beard when I have one is expensive these days. I can understand the financial point but yet Spanish girls, black girls, they still spend tons on their hair and have far less income to do so compared to your average white American chic.
Well if you aren’t getting all fired up then I don’t see why you lob insults, I guess childish knee jerk reaction then?
