[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Lifticus,
“Other than that we cannot fight wars against “Isms”. At best it will be like the war on poverty or the war on drugs–both of which are un-winnable due to the nature on mankind.”
Sure we can - we fought Nazism.
Second, the other ‘wars’ you refer to are social conditions largely - no one is really fighting a ‘war’ against an ‘enemy’. Societies clash, and that is a traditional war, and that is what we have here - terror is just a means because the Islamists do not have the ability to confront its enemies in a conventional military war.
“The second issue you state about the Islamic Jihadists reclaiming the “old-world” Islamic Ottoman Empire couldn’t be more ridiculous.”
Nonsense - go read what OBL has said himself. He wants the old borders of the empire restored.
“This is the line of reasoning that the Bush administration uses to scare and put fear into the citizens of this country.”
You have anything better than this? This old hackneyed line is due for a retread. The Islamists are out to get back what they think was taken from them - and that means reconquest of all their favored lands. This is not a matter of opinion.
“Lets look at the facts: there is not one nation that is even initiated enough to peruse this conquest–nor would they have the means without European support.”
Several flaws here. First of all, terror can have a huge impact on industrial output without actually wiping out cities or battalions.
Second, just because they don’t have the means - yet - doesn’t mean they won’t do what they can to weaken their enemy. Moreover, how many days before Iran is a nuclear-tipped power? How long would it be till those capabilities were tranferred to like-minded Islamists? The mere threat of nuclear war in Europe is enough to cause the kinds of problems you insist don’t exist.
Could we beat them after they arm? Oh, yes. But at what cost?
“Thirdly, in WWII we had enemies with borders and a strong centralized government and had an actual mission agenda. We will never defeat all terrorists”
I suspect you are right, to some degree - but they can only exist in a place that permits their sanctuary. Take this away, and they are as good as defeated.
“–nor will we find them or know where they are at any given moment (we couldn’t even find WMD in Iraq).”
Finding them is a matter of intelligence, but it is also a matter of what to do when we get the intelligence - like demand they be turned over to the US or the nation harboring them suffer the consequences.
“Unfortunately this is a war that will only be fought with policy and good hard intelligence.”
Like every war ever in the history of wars. Does this mean anything? [/quote]
Un, we didn’t fight against Nazism. We fought Nazi Germany. An actual state with men, materiel, borders, etc. If we fought against Nazism, then we lost because it’s still here, in various other forms.
The war on terror is more like a game of whack-a-mole: smack one down and another pops up, forever.
[quote]I suspect you are right, to some degree - but they can only exist in a place that permits their sanctuary. Take this away, and they are as good as defeated.
[/quote]
You mean like the ones living in the US and Great Britain and all the other Western countries? Are we giving sanctuary to terrorists? We can wipe out every single Moslem nation on the planet and there will still be Moslem terrorists in our midst. A lot of folks on this forum live in a fantasy land where every thing is black and white, the good guys are easily distinguished from the bad and we will prevail because of our red-blooded, steely-eyed, square-jawed determination. Does it occur that we might need to be creative, subtle, intelligent, sophisticated? Perhaps encourage democratization in places like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, etc?
Yeah, good question. I wonder why we went after Iraq instead of Iran, since Iran is a bigger threat to us, given their nuclear pursuits. I’m sure we have a plan.
Not all terrorists are created equal. A Palestinian who thinks he is striking back against Israeli aggression is not the same as a Saudi who flies a plane into an American skyscraper is not the same as an Iraqi suicide bomber. They are not all fighting for the same thing, for the same reasons. It is shortsighted to lump them all together and thing that by bombing the hell out of some place or another, we are making headway against terrorism. No one has proposed therapy for terrorists (although God knows they could use it), it’s more of the Sun Tzu admonishment to know thy enemy. To this I would add the ancient Greek proposal to know thyself. The government of the US and the West have practiced a foreign policy that is self-serving and Machiavellian, in declaring themselves defenders of liberty, demmocracy and justice in this or that instance, while turning a blind eye to brutal oppression and benighted autocracy in others. This makes us hypocrites. It is in direct opposition to our fundamental values (liberty, justice, free speech, individual rights, etc). It doesn’t sit well with a world looking to us for leadership and it doesn’t sit well with our own citizenry. This is why our own country is so divided and partisan right now. If we are so damn concerned about the welfare and freedom of the rest of the world why are we not assiduously putting our money where our mouth is? Why have we not intervened in Darfur, for instance? Why have we not pressured Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for democratic reforms? These are just a few examples.
I do believe America is the greatest nation on earth and because of that, I hold us and our government to a higher standard. I expect us to live up to our ideals or at least really push to achieve those ideals. I expect the people to question the government thoroughly when it spends our money and sends our troops into battle and I expect there to be full reckoning and accountability. If you aren’t willing to take responsibility for everything that happens on your watch, you have no business being president or any other kind of leader. That is what I was taught when I was in the military. No whiny-assed excuses were permitted. If something went to shit, you stood up, took responsiblity and did what it took to fix it. America has been and can be a force for great good in the world, but we have been arrogant and short-sighted in our policies of late. This can be changed, if the people hold our leaders to a higher level of integrity and honor. There will always be enemies, there will always be those that hate and fear us. But that number will be greatly reduced if we have the courage to admit our mistakes and do what it takes to repair the damage.
Regards,
WMD