Gyno Question

Pharma TRT
1

I wasn’t sure what forum to put this in since I haven’t actually had T replacement. But most discussions here seem relevant to my situation.

I was just wondering if anyone had developed gyno, in their 20’s, independent of any steroids, PH’s, etc?

Happened to me about 4 years ago. Had some blood work done and my estrogen levels were about double the high end of the normal range. I have no idea why. The gyno has gotten slightly worse over the years, but even then it is not too bad. I do store a large amount of fat on my chest though.

I have tried self medicating with some AI’s (tried letro and arimidex) didn’t really notice much effect at all. So I guess my question is, has this happened to anyone, and do you have any idea why it happened?

EDIT: I figured I should also note that the only medication I take is albuterol for mild asthma, and for one summer I did try symbicort which is a corticosteroid inhaler.

Also, I have tried various test boosters. My T levels when I had my blood work done were in the middle of the normal range. I believe 450 on a reading of 200-800.

2

You need to get E2 labs and adjust AI dose to get near E2=22pg/ml.

Elevated E2 will reduce your T levels. Lowering E2 may increase T levels.

Consider prolactin lab test.

Yes, spontaneous gyno can happen.

Hypothyroidism can lower T.

Read the advice for new guys sticky, note body temperature, iodized salt, iodine.

Read the estradiol sticky.

Nolvadex might provide the fastest benefit addressing gyno. This can also increase LH,FSH and T. Use with anastrozole.

Post all lab data.

3

[quote]KSman wrote:
You need to get E2 labs and adjust AI dose to get near E2=22pg/ml.

Elevated E2 will reduce your T levels. Lowering E2 may increase T levels.

Consider prolactin lab test.

Yes, spontaneous gyno can happen.

Hypothyroidism can lower T.

Read the advice for new guys sticky, note body temperature, iodized salt, iodine.

Read the estradiol sticky.

Nolvadex might provide the fastest benefit addressing gyno. This can also increase LH,FSH and T. Use with anastrozole.

Post all lab data. [/quote]

Thank you for your response.

I have read both threads, and they are great. That is why I decided to post my question in this forum. It has been awhile since I have had a blood test done because I haven’t been able to afford it. But, once my benefits kick in with my new job it will be one of the first things I do.

Judging off of how I feel and look, I would say my T levels are probably normal at least. No issues with libido or erection, and my ability to build muscle or lose fat doesn’t seem to be impaired.

I have read about using a SERM and AI together, but I couldn’t grasp the concept of it enough for me to try it. SERM’s will compete with estrogen for binding sites in the chest, but they also can cause an increase in T which could result in more estrogen if I have to much aromatase, and that is why an AI is needed?

I’ll look into prolactin a bit more. What about SHBG?

4

SERMs only protect ‘selected’ tissues: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator

Can you respond to: Read the advice for new guys sticky, note body temperature, iodized salt, iodine?

5

[quote]KSman wrote:
SERMs only protect ‘selected’ tissues: Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator

Can you respond to: Read the advice for new guys sticky, note body temperature, iodized salt, iodine?[/quote]

Body temperature is normal, I sweat fairly easy, and I would say I am usually warm as opposed to cold. I do not use iodized salt. I don’t think I am someone who is deficient in iodine.

Just to make this a little more thorough I will answer all the criteria from the new guys sticky:

-age
25
-height
6’0
-waist
33"
-weight
210
-describe body and facial hair
I am a hairy guy all over.
-describe where you carry fat and how changed
Love handles and chest are the most fatty. I have visible abs though (see avatar)
-health conditions, symptoms [history]
Mild asthma, dad is either a type 1 or type 2 diabetic but he won’t get an antibody test done.
-Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever
Albuterol. No hair loss.
-lab results with ranges
Test was around 450 on a range of 200-800. E was around 80 on a scale of 20-40 I believe.
-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
25% pro 50% fat 25% carbs
-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
5 day split- 3 upper - 2 lower
-testes ache, ever, with a fever?
No
-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
I generally notice nocturnal erections when I wake up. Sometimes I have morning wood sometimes I don’t, and I can never tell if it is because sometimes I have to piss really bad.

EDIT:
I have always been a crappy sleeper. Never wake up feeling rested. Always feel like I need a nap no matter how much sleep I got. Did a sleep study, wasn’t much help. No sleep apnea.

I have always speculated that my adrenals/cortisol was off somehow because of my albuterol inhaler. I always had really clamy hands and feet when I was younger which some people said had to do with dysfunctional adrenals. Not really sure if that is true.

6

KSMan:

Bought a thermometer and started taking my temperature.

Averages have been between 96-97.

I was 96.5 right away in the morning. My under arm temperature tends to be a little warmer than mouth temperature.

I am completely surprised by this because I am almost always warmer than other people.

So, I bought an iodine supplement to see if that helps the temperature. Otherwise, I will still be waiting for my new insurance to kick in during December when I can get some blood tests.

7

Iodine context: KSMan? - Testosterone Replacement - Forums - T Nation

8

[quote]KSman wrote:
Iodine context: KSMan? - Testosterone Replacement - Forums - T Nation
[/quote]

So, after reading that thread you think someone suspected of iodine deficiency should have >150mg of iodine a day? The iodine source I bought was potassium iodide. I read that it had preferential uptake in the thyroid. Is potassium iodide optimal?

9

This same thing happened to me… “Idiopathic gynecomastia”

Looking back on it, here are some observations and recommendations.

-I never knew it but I’m 99% sure I had gyno before, from puberty and it wasn’t very noticeable. I believe once you have that glandular breast tissue, it makes the potential for flare ups greater. When I say flare ups, I mean sensitive nips, very pronounced lump(s). Did you have gyno before? You said you stored fat on your chest, I’m willing to bet you have a little gyno to begin with, possibly from puberty.

-When this happened to me, I was towards the end of a “bulk”. I was about 20-25% body fat I’d say.

-Try your best to stay away from anything that could disrupt your hormones. Air fresheners, lavender extracts, heated plastics. Make sure your liver is healthy! Stay away from booze, drugs. Drink warm lemon water, real cranberry.

-Take your iodine, vitamin d3, zinc.

-Don’t play with your nipples/ areolas, even if you’re not feeling gyno symptoms. You don’t want to bring attention to that area. Checking for lumps is okay but don’t obsess over it. It won’t help. If you’re not feeling sympotoms then the tissue is not growing.

-That glandular tissue is there forever unless you get it surgically removed. You may be able to reduce the subcutaenous fat on your chest, but this could possibly make your glandular tissue protrude more. Yeah it sucks.

10

[quote]moveitorloseit wrote:
This same thing happened to me… “Idiopathic gynecomastia”

Looking back on it, here are some observations and recommendations.

-I never knew it but I’m 99% sure I had gyno before, from puberty and it wasn’t very noticeable. I believe once you have that glandular breast tissue, it makes the potential for flare ups greater. When I say flare ups, I mean sensitive nips, very pronounced lump(s). Did you have gyno before? You said you stored fat on your chest, I’m willing to bet you have a little gyno to begin with, possibly from puberty.

-When this happened to me, I was towards the end of a “bulk”. I was about 20-25% body fat I’d say.

-Try your best to stay away from anything that could disrupt your hormones. Air fresheners, lavender extracts, heated plastics. Make sure your liver is healthy! Stay away from booze, drugs. Drink warm lemon water, real cranberry.

-Take your iodine, vitamin d3, zinc.

-Don’t play with your nipples/ areolas, even if you’re not feeling gyno symptoms. You don’t want to bring attention to that area. Checking for lumps is okay but don’t obsess over it. It won’t help. If you’re not feeling sympotoms then the tissue is not growing.

-That glandular tissue is there forever unless you get it surgically removed. You may be able to reduce the subcutaenous fat on your chest, but this could possibly make your glandular tissue protrude more. Yeah it sucks. [/quote]

I can unequivocally say I have never had gyno before this. I was a stick as a kid, extremely skinny til I started lifting at age 17-18.

Since I developed gyno my nipples were never sensitive and the lumps have never hurt. I still store a lot of fat on my chest, and can feel cords of fat in my chest along with the gyno lumps. Which leads me to believe I still have high estrogen levels. So I am in the process of determining what is causing that. I think I may be getting some leads with a potential thyroid or adrenal issue.

Thanks for your reply.

11

If your E was 80, then get the AI!!! Anastrazole is cheap and will fix what ails you. If that alone doesn’t work, then add Nolvadex. You can see my thread for dosing.

12

Watch your units!!!

Iodine in vitamins is typically RDA 150mcg, that is 150 micro-grams or 0.15 mg milli grams.

The differences in the form of iodine is a minor issue if one is iodine deficient. So what is optimal? This is iodoral: -this product is highly regarded.
Serving Size: 1 Tablet
Servings Per Container: 90

Amount Per Serving / % DV

Total Iodine/Iodide 12.5mg / 8333
Iodine 5mg
Iodide (as potassium salt) 7.5mg

When I was doing iodine replenishment, I was taking 50mg per day until my gut flora was getting affected.

If one is iodine deficient, taking 150 micro-grams is not going to change things. One may be restoring 500mg. At the RDA of .15, it would take 3000 days to consume that much iodine and most would be lost and you would still not be replenished.

I am now on maintenance doses and my body temperature remains normalized.

13

[quote]beerman wrote:
If your E was 80, then get the AI!!! Anastrazole is cheap and will fix what ails you. If that alone doesn’t work, then add Nolvadex. You can see my thread for dosing. [/quote]

Ha yes, I understood that. Which is why I tried Arimidex and Letro. I realize AI’s will in most cases reduce total estrogen. But, with me, the issue is what is causing the elevated estrogen levels. I had normal T levels. Did not use steroids, PH’s or anything else that should have altered my estrogen levels. So I am looking into other potential factors such as thyroid or adrenals which seem more relevant in my case.

I will check out your thread, because I am curious about an AI/Serm combo.

14

[quote]KSman wrote:
Watch your units!!!

Iodine in vitamins is typically RDA 150mcg, that is 150 micro-grams or 0.15 mg milli grams.

The differences in the form of iodine is a minor issue if one is iodine deficient. So what is optimal? This is iodoral: -this product is highly regarded.
Serving Size: 1 Tablet
Servings Per Container: 90

Amount Per Serving / % DV

Total Iodine/Iodide 12.5mg / 8333
Iodine 5mg
Iodide (as potassium salt) 7.5mg

When I was doing iodine replenishment, I was taking 50mg per day until my gut flora was getting affected.

If one is iodine deficient, taking 150 micro-grams is not going to change things. One may be restoring 500mg. At the RDA of .15, it would take 3000 days to consume that much iodine and most would be lost and you would still not be replenished.

I am now on maintenance doses and my body temperature remains normalized.
[/quote]

The supplement is potassium iodide by source naturals.

33mg of iodide per tablet.

15

how do you know your estrogen is still elevated?

16

Total estrogen? We are interested in E2 levels, not total estrogen levels.

Please check your sources: “E was around 80 on a scale of 20-40 I believe.”

Any changes to your testes? Any lumps? Any discomfort?

17

[quote]moveitorloseit wrote:
how do you know your estrogen is still elevated?[/quote]

I do not know for sure because I haven’t had a blood test for a few years. But, I still feel like I probably do considering how much fat I store on my chest relative to the rest of my body. I know this is anecdotal and I will find out for sure sometime in December after my insurance kicks in and I can get a blood test.

18

[quote]KSman wrote:
Total estrogen? We are interested in E2 levels, not total estrogen levels.

Please check your sources: “E was around 80 on a scale of 20-40 I believe.”

Any changes to your testes? Any lumps? Any discomfort?
[/quote]

Unfortunately, at the time I met with my doc he had all the other test results but my estrogen. So, I found out from a nurse over the phone that my estrogen was double the acceptable range. Back then I didn’t understand the difference between total estrogen and E2 so I never asked.
The gyno formation was what prompted me to have my E and T levels measured.

No changes to my testes, no lumps or discomfort.

19

Hey KSman:

Received my Potassium Iodide. It says not to take for longer than 10 days. What is your take on that? Should I take til my temperature normalizes, then stop, or have a maintenance dosage?

Also what do you think of what this guy says in this link, first time I have read something like that:

Appreciate all your input you give on this board.

Edit:

I am finding a lot of research showing Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal Axis Suppression in children that use corticosteroids for asthma.

I am becoming more convinced that my hormone problems are caused by an adrenal issue. I had an extremely stressful event in my life when I was in 3rd grade. My appendix ruptured inside of me and I almost died. Seemingly over night I developed asthma and allergies. Both of those are auto immune disorders which some people say have a strong link with adrenal insufficiency or other adrenal maladies. My adrenals would obviously have been maxed out after an event like that and they have maybe just never completely healed, or they have worsened over the years. Using medication for my asthma might be taxing them even more now.

Am I grasping here, or does this all sound plausible?

20

I had a severe abdominal infection like you did, rupture was caused by a doctor. Between the infection, starvation, inflamatory response, free radicals and low anti-oxidants [from starvation] and huge amounts of antibiotics, things will never be the same. Also ended up with major osteoarthritis in my fingers. So, yes, that event messed you up.

Corticosteroids do horrible things and are very catabolic.

That iodine article is very flawed. In the past, there were no chlorine or bromine compounds in the environment, people ate natural foods and goiter was common and profound.

Iodine 33mg. Take one or 1.5 per day, see what your gut flora tolerate. See how this changes body temperature and how you feel. 33mg X 15 tablets = 1/2 gram. Body stores 1.0 - 1.5 grams, iodine replenishment may need to be 1 - 1.0 grams.

As gut flora will be reduced and have a different balance, you will need to exit onto a good quality probiotic.