I only have two guns, but feel that’s all I
need. A Sig P220 .45, which I like a lot. I
tried the Glocks, but they never seemed to
fit my hand well. Also have a semi-auto rifle
but I’ll decline to mention what it is, as I
don’t need the BATF at my door. Gun laws? Bwa
hah hah ha …
This is a good sign that so many T-maggers have guns. A very good sign...
WeaponX- home protection is a debatable issue. Some are against semi-autos because over time, the spring will loose tension, resulting in the last couple rounds not loading. But in my eyes, that means you still get 12-13 rounds out of a 15 round clip. or 9 rounds out of a 10+1, and so on… The autos also have the safety. While some safeties are so stinkin complicated yo uneed a PhD to figure it out, others, like the one on my HiPoint, are simply a lever you flip with your thumb. A HiPoint semi auto 9mm can be had for around $100, and a .45ACP for around $130, I believe. I can check on the prices, though, since I am not 100% sure. They are very ugly, square guns. rather heavy, also. but that cuts down on the kick. and you could shoot friggin gravel thru those things. I actually have 4 HiPoint firearms, and never have jammed a single one. Whereas I have jammed my sisters Glock on several occasions. So, the moral to this story- price doesnt necessarily equal reliability.
Another point on jamming- the ammunition is a major factor! There are certain brands that I will not touch, because I have never gotten a clean clip with them. I dont remember the names, but recognize the logo, and refuse to even touch them. You need to experiment with many rounds, because some weapons dont like some rounds. Guns can be like women sometimes… all picky and stuff…
onto stopping power- .357 magnum or .45 for shear stopping power, IMHO. But any round, be it 9mm, .38, .40, can knock somebody clean off their feet. There are special hollow points that spread on impact instead of fragment. A couple brands are ‘Black Talon’ and ‘Starfire.’ these rounds expand upon contact- a 9mm expands to larger than a dime, and a .45 expands to roughly the size of a quarter! THAT IS WHAT I CALL STOPPING POWER! The round most likely doesnt leave thru the targets back, so all the force is absorbed into the target. It would be like someone driving by you at 150 miles an hour and hitting you with a baseball bat! There are also rounds of shot. The resemble shotgun shells, in a way. The slug consists of a plastic shell filled with shot. They do are less likely to penatrate walls, so the safety of others in the house is less of a concern. And they spread out the impact, effectively “hurting” more of the target.
Hope this wasnt too much, and if there is anything else i can help you with or clarify, just let me know!
The more important thing than what type of gun you have is that you know how to use it. Get some training, not just in firing at targets, but in firing and picking targets under stress. You don’t want to be shooting the daughter’s boyfriend. Also, be aware of the ramifications of shooting some one, even when they are breaking in. Usually, if it even gets to you showing the gun, you’re either up against some one else who is armed (and probably not afraid to use it), or crazed/drugged enough to not be dropped by several rounds. An intruder alarm will do wonders as a deterrant to break ins. Just some food for thought.
If you’re looking for “home protection”, and are inexperienced with firearms, forget hanguns, especially semi-autos. Under real life firing conditions, you’re unlikely to be effective. Trust me on this one. Get a shotgun. It is the ultimate close-quarter firearm. A Winchester 1300, or better yet a Remington 870 (both 3" magnums, both with 18" barrels if the law allows) loaded with 00 buck will do the job. The most important thing is to get out there and get TRAINED in safety and operation, as well as the legal aspects of using deadly force. Don’t assume that because some prick broke in that you are within your legal right to shoot him. Also, if you have kids in the house, educate them as well. Don’t become a statistic that gun control assholes can quote later. Take care, and good luck. BTW, if you have any further questions ask away.
While the shotgun may be king in terms
of the “fear factor” it induces in the
person it’s pointed at, I’m not at all
sure it’s best for home stopping power.
First, buckshot vs. slug. People inexperienced
with guns tend to imagine that the buckshot
will spread so that a hit will be achieved
even if aim is not quite right. This isn’t
so. Spread is negligible at short distances.
And the slug is superior in terms of stopping power.
However, both the buckshot and the slug have
overpenetration problems and heavy recoil problems.
.223 Remington is about equal to the slug
in stopping power and is far superior in terms of avoiding overpenetration and having much more controllable recoil, as well as being
not as bad on your ears. But no, it doesn’t look quite as scary.
I’ve got an AR-15. It’s a civilian M-16 and it shoots like a charm.
Good points, however I don’t agree with all of them :). Even at short distances (10-15) feet 00 shot does spread enough to create an advantage over a slug or bullet. Remember this is a tactical shotgun with an 18" barrel I’m talking about here, not a duck gun with a modified choke. When the distance increases (15-30 feet) then shot is king. Yes, slugs suffer from overpenetration problems, but I don’t advocate slugs (either 1 oz. or .50 caliber sabots) for home defense for that very reason. Buck is another matter altogether. It actually penetrates much less than one might imagine (reference “Deadly Weapons” which I mentioned previously) and has plenty of stopping power (remember penetration and stopping power are two very different things). Also, there are some home defense situations where you may WANT more penetration than the .223 offers, as a typical home environment offers a lot of cover for a burglar. I agree that recoil is an issue, but if you’re using a pump, an immediate follow-up shot is impossible anyway (and with the increased likelihood of hitting the bad guy, probably not necessary). Also take into consideration that if you are using a firearm to defend your home, chances are it will be in low light conditions. Simply affixing a tactical flashlight to either model scattergun that I mentioned helps alleviate this problem (same with an AR-15 clone). And you’re right, nothing, but nothing, scares the hell out of a would-be burglar more than hearing the unmistakeable sound of a pump-action shotgun as you rack the slide. The .223 is a great defense round, however if you’re using a long gun in a household environment, you run into manuverability problems. Better to split the difference and go for a short barreled shotgun.
By the way Bill, .223 has no where near the stopping power of a slug. You can’t argue with the laws of physics. Well you can, but losing is inevitable ;).
Best home defenser, IMHO, is an 18" (or less)
pistol grip Mossberg pumper (n.b in Indiana,
you can get an AOW license and have 10" or
12" barrels). Slugs vs. shot…I was
always told to “alternate”.
:–) Brock
I’ve always been facinated with guns, I guess more from a technological perspective. I don’t think I ever want to own one. If I did it would be a Glock model 17. You can tell it’s a bunch of Americans on this thread. Heheheh. 
Keago
Well, i never thought it would be this complicated. But at least you guys know what you’re talking about. I have considered a shotgun, simply because I’ve handled them before (skeet shooting). And, trust me, i wouldn’t purchase a gun without taking the time to learn how to use it properly. As for the legal ramifications of shooting an intruder. Fuck it, I’ll leave it up to the jury. I’d rather go to jail than my children’s funeral. I think about Polly Klaas (sp?) being abducted from her home and what happened to her. To me, there’s no other option. Shoot first, ask questions later.
I’m a state-licensed firearm instructor, death investigator(coroner) and I have 11 years of street experience as a Deputy Sheriff. My opinions are my own, but they have been formed after years of viewing the effects of firearm injuries. Also, I trained my brother, “Demo Dick” in the use of firearms, deadly force legal issues and have certified him as being eligible to receive a concealed carry permit, so he and I kind of think alike. Usually, think alike, I should add.
00 Buck usually has 9, 38 caliber pellets. I say “usually”, because you can cram more into the round if you use a 12 gauge magnum round. But let’s start from the beginning. Unless you are a very experienced and trained shooter, the semi auto is NOT the way to go. The best way is to keep it simple. Semi autos can jam, stovepipe, misfeed, hit a dead round,and if you don’t know how to immediately clear the weapon and chamber a new round, you have a paperweight in your hand. I would suggest a
revolver for those who absolutely have to use a handgun. It is simple, damn near impossible to misfire, and even if it does, you just pull the trigger again to get to the next round. True, you are limited on the amount of ammunition you have in the weapon, but the high cap magazines don’t mean anything if the gun jams or you can’t hit what you
are aiming at. Statistics show that the “typical” gun battle takes place
under limited light conditions with the combatants within 10 feet of each
other and isover after very few rounds are fired. I’ll take one, well-placed
round over 15 crappy ones any day.
When it comes to caliber, we could go round and round all day long regarding which round has more “stopping” power vs. penetration, etc. Keep in mind that each round has its own
unique ballistic capabilities based on mass (grains), powder load, type of bullet (hollowpoint/ball/full metal jacket). The simple rule is this, use the largest caliber that you can easily control and when
possible, use the heaviest grain bullet for that caliber with a hollow point if possible.
Rifles vs. Shotguns. The rifle is not the ideal home defense weapon. Generally, they are long, unwieldy, and overpowered for this use. Even a .223 is overpowered for home defense, let alone a .308 or a 30-06. Rifles are designed for long distance shooting, and should be used for this type of armed encounter. Personally, I have a .223 Colt AR-15 and I would not dream of using it in a building. Overpenetration with this round is a real danger and I would prefer not to shoot through a wall and/or hit a non-combatant. True, you can use a frangible round, but then you run the risk of too little penetration. The shotgun is ideal for a couple of reasons. 1. With a shotgun round, you get multiple projectiles flying at the target, unless you are shooting slugs. OO Buckshot (my preferred load) has 9, 38 caliber pellets. These rounds are capable of doing immense damage at the close ranges you would encounter in a building. 2. A shotgun is a very intimidating weapon. A person is less likely to mess with you he or she knows up front that you have a weapon such as this aimed at them. 3. The shotgun is simple to use. Rack a round, shoot a round, rack a round, shoot a round. Aiming is very simple to do-just point and fire. True, recoil can be a problem, but if if you train with this weapon, you can acclimate yourself to it easily. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it is worth.
Statistics from police shootings do show
the .223 Remington to be extremely close
to 100% in one-shot stops, essentially
equivalent to the slug, and much superior
to buckshot.
I know this is surprising and personally
I wouldn’t expect it in principle, but
what I’d expect in principle is not important
when observed facts say otherwise.
I was going to apply for my NYS License, but I’ll wait for after I enter the military. But when I do get one, it’ll be a simple revolver. Perhaps a S&W 9mm or .38. Nothing fancy or overcomplicated. Although if I had my choice, it’d probably be the SAR-21 .223 I have a question for Dirty Huey. What state are you in? My friend was going for the NYC or NYS (can’t remember which) handgun licensing, which he said you can carry around anywhere. But, because of Sept. 11, he thinks that’s been changed. Is that so?
Best gun quote ever. Christian Slater in True Romance " If there is one thing this week has taught me. It is better to have a gun and not need a gun than need a gun and not have a gun." Now on to mine. Funny thing I dated this girl for two years and she never knew I had them as such I never talk about them but since you all are anonomous I will. I have a taurus .45 semi with a modified trigger and firing pin. Also mod sites. A couple 12 gauge pumps and one riffle. I want to get more pistols but not any time soon. peace.
First of all, we need to agree on the operational definition of “stopping power”. When I use this term, I’m referring to the ability of the bullet to transfer the maximum amount of energy to the target and do maximum tissue damage. Using this definition, slugs and buck win over .223. I’m not referring to one shot stop rates for reasons which will become apparent. Were the stats you saw controlled for the type of encounter (long range vs. close quarter combat)? If not, then I’m not at all surprised that the .223 had a higher “one-shot stop” rate. This round is most commonly used for sniping, which means that the shooter sits quietly waiting for a head or center of mass shot. This could be the reason that the .223 seems more effective, but that’s just speculation. In stark contrast to sniping are close quarter gun battles, which are loud, dark, and stressful. Of course the one shot stop rates are lower for slugs and buck, because they are typically used in this much more tramautic form of combat. It’s simply harder to hit the bad guy, in the dark, with your heart racing and your ears pounding from the first exchange of fire. But without examining the stats and the study behind them, this is all speculation on my part.
Typically, a sniper won’t take a shot unless they’re confident that the target will go down after one. Follow ups are nearly impossible, as when the first bullet flies EVERYONE hits the deck. Second shots also can give away the snipers position. This could also contribute to a higher one-shot stop rate for the .223. Am I boring anyone yet? —Demo Dick
You have a good point there, Demo Dick. As my previous reply implied, I did find the statistic odd, and I think your explanation
makes good sense.
So to summarize perhaps, with shot
placement that ought to give a good stop, .223 is extremely effective, but
with shitty shot placement, you’d be better
off with a slug or buckshot.
Which brings to point the interesting
phenomenon that the more powerful the
weapon is perceived to be by the user,
if not highly trained (and often even
if highly trained) the more likely the
shot fired will not yet have good
placement. This is not a good thing.
A mouse gun aimed well beats a submachine
gun spray that misses.
Mr. Roberts, I think my brother said it best: “I’ll take one, well-placed round over 15 crappy ones any day.” The moral is: LEARN TO SHOOT, FOLKS! If you’re going to take the awesome responsibility of gun ownership upon yourself, make sure you adequately prepare for the horrible reality that you may need to use the weapon someday. Spray & pray doesn’t cut it. And please don’t get trigger happy and shoot one of your kids as they sneak home from a party. Also, Bronx Bomber, I’ll talk to Dirty Huey and remind him of your question. He’s been kinda busy throwing bad guys in prison lately, but I’m sure he’d be happy to respond. Personally, if I was your friend, I wouldn’t get my hopes up. I highly doubt that a NY CCW permit is valid everywhere, and getting one in the first place is a bitch.
To Bronx Bomber,
I’m located in Montana and our CCW laws are pretty liberal. As a matter of fact, the law reads that unless the issuing entity (The Sheriff’s Office) can provide a good reason why you should not be allowed a CCW, you are entitled to it.
As far as New York goes, I would recommend that you speak directly with the Attorney General’s Office in that state. But, I don’t hold out much hope as far as New York City goes. Cities can make more restrictive laws concerning CCW and unless challenged in court, those laws would stand. My best suggestion to you would be to contact that state directly and get it from the horse’s mouth, preferably in writing. This is the kind of situation where a friend’s information doesn’t mean jack when the boys in blue are patting you down and find a gun they don’t want you to have.