[quote]Sloth wrote:
If you believe in sin, you’re judging.[/quote]
It’s fine to judge, as long as it is an audience of one. Just don’t judge others, and leave that to the sinless who are in a position to do so.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
People are being damaged because they a follow a destructive lifestyle.[/quote]
I was damaged as a gay Mormon, but now that I am living with integrity the damage is no longer present in my life. The “destructive lifestyle” is denying and repressing who you are, due to misguided beliefs which don’t reflect reality.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh for crying out loud. He’s warning to not be like the Pharisees and the hypocrites. We must strive to deal with our own sins.
Exactly. He said it is perfectly fine to understand sin, but the application of that understanding should be limited to your own life. Don’t go around judging the sins of others until you are perfect yourself. Leave the judging of others to God, and don’t impose your beliefs on others.
If you believe homosexuality is sinful, don’t be gay. Leave the gays to God, and don’t try legislating your beliefs on us.[/quote]
That is so false, I wonder if you’ve limited your exposure to the bible to a few googled quotes. The Disciples, the Apostles, preached against sin and sinners for crying out loud.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Adultery is an example I used. The message is not to be a hypocrite. Cast out the plank from your own eye first, then cast out the plank in the others. Your reading of it is nonsense. A Christian wouldn’t even be able to judge adultery as a sin, and that’s obviously not the case.
It was a speck in the others, not a plank. The plank was in your eye, big guy. And if you keep reading down to 7:15 or so, you may find yourself putting out some bad fruit. Hubris ranked somewhere in the deadly sins, didn’t it Mr. WithoutSin?
Funny that you picked adultery, as Jesus specifically mentioned that one… But go ahead and keep on casting those stones.
Yes, the plank is one’s eye. It’s a plank (compared to a speck, a minor sin) because the sin isn’t just the same sin, it’s now also weighed down in hypocrisy.
Um, what stones? These are just words.
It was a reference to another bible verse where Jesus talks about adultery. Did Jesus condemn her? Do you understand why I talked about Hubris?
[/quote]
You stopped making sense along time ago in this conversation. If you have a statement to make, make it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Are you even thinking through this? If Jesus wants people to sin no more, than there is sin. In order to instruct on what is sinful, what we should stop doing in order to stop sinning, we must judge! Keep it simple. Geeze.[/quote]
Jesus never said there wasn’t sin, nor that he wasn’t in a position to judge it.
He didn’t even say you shouldn’t judge sin, for your own life.
What he did say very clearly was that you shouldn’t judge sin for the lives of others.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
The judgment of the action, adultery in this case, as being wrong still holds true. However, just because it is wrong, they don’t have the right to judge her, only God does. And Jesus at the end waves his right to condemn her.[/quote]
Well said. So do we have a right to judge?
[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
You are saying you shouldn’t try to change others, then stating the whole church should change their beliefs.
I’m saying the church is damaging the lives of people due to its beliefs. What it chooses to do with those beliefs is up to the church, but it doesn’t change the fact that people are being damaged in the process.
[/quote]
But if you are a Mormon, you have to believe that the gay community practicing and teaching the acceptance of that behavior is in fact damaging a person’s soul.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
People are being damaged because they a follow a destructive lifestyle.
I was damaged as a gay Mormon, but now that I am living with integrity the damage is no longer present in my life. The “destructive lifestyle” is denying and repressing who you are, due to misguided beliefs which don’t reflect reality.[/quote]
And I’ll have to disagree with you. I in fact believe you are damaged.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
The Disciples, the Apostles, preached against sin and sinners for crying out loud. [/quote]
I’m pretty sure they didn’t try making civil laws which enforce their religious beliefs on others, rather than rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But if you are a Mormon, you have to believe that the gay community practicing and teaching the acceptance of that behavior is in fact damaging a person’s soul.[/quote]
I did believe that, despite the reality that I was being damaged from the belief itself. Once I realized it is ok to be gay, the damage disappeared. Funny how that works.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Are you even thinking through this? If Jesus wants people to sin no more, than there is sin. In order to instruct on what is sinful, what we should stop doing in order to stop sinning, we must judge! Keep it simple. Geeze.
Jesus never said there wasn’t sin, nor that he wasn’t in a position to judge it.
He didn’t even say you shouldn’t judge sin, for your own life.
What he did say very clearly was that you shouldn’t judge sin for the lives of others.[/quote]
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
But he’s not allowed to say these judgemental things! Didn’t the Holy Spirit inform him of these rules?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And I’ll have to disagree with you. I in fact believe you are damaged.[/quote]
Back to judging others so quickly? You might want to set that stone down while you still can.
Gambit is right; it takes a lot hubris to judge the health and happiness of someone you don’t even know based on a misguided religious belief.
Thanks for the judgment, but I think if you ask anyone that actually knows me they will tell you that my life is much happier, more peaceful, more integrated, and overall better than when I was a repressed gay Mormon.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Adultery is an example I used. The message is not to be a hypocrite. Cast out the plank from your own eye first, then cast out the plank in the others. Your reading of it is nonsense. A Christian wouldn’t even be able to judge adultery as a sin, and that’s obviously not the case.
It was a speck in the others, not a plank. The plank was in your eye, big guy. And if you keep reading down to 7:15 or so, you may find yourself putting out some bad fruit. Hubris ranked somewhere in the deadly sins, didn’t it Mr. WithoutSin?
Funny that you picked adultery, as Jesus specifically mentioned that one… But go ahead and keep on casting those stones.
Yes, the plank is one’s eye. It’s a plank (compared to a speck, a minor sin) because the sin isn’t just the same sin, it’s now also weighed down in hypocrisy.
Um, what stones? These are just words.
It was a reference to another bible verse where Jesus talks about adultery. Did Jesus condemn her? Do you understand why I talked about Hubris?
You stopped making sense along time ago in this conversation. If you have a statement to make, make it.[/quote]
Listen, as a fellow Christian, I can’t connect all these dots for you, you actually have to work for it a bit. If the point isn’t glaringly apparent, then you’re going to have to sit and think to figure it out…it’s obvious.
But I realize you won’t do this. You’re stuck in your ways and beliefs. No worries. But maybe the next time you change churches, maybe think just a moment about this stuff.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
But he’s not allowed to say these judgemental things! Didn’t the Holy Spirit inform him of these rules?[/quote]
I don’t see Jesus justifying the statements of Paul. It is well known that Paul was at odds with Peter and the other apostles on a number of issues. I think he had a hard time letting go of the self-righteous judgment of his days as a Pharisee.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Listen, as a fellow Christian, I can’t connect all these dots for you, you actually have to work for it a bit. If the point isn’t glaringly apparent, then you’re going to have to sit and think to figure it out…it’s obvious.
But I realize you won’t do this. You’re stuck in your ways and beliefs. No worries. But maybe the next time you change churches, maybe think just a moment about this stuff.
[/quote]
In other words, you conceede you can’t make your case.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
But he’s not allowed to say these judgemental things! Didn’t the Holy Spirit inform him of these rules?
I don’t see Jesus justifying the statements of Paul. It is well known that Paul was at odds with Peter and the other apostles on a number of issues. I think he had a hard time letting go of the self-righteous judgment of his days as a Pharisee.[/quote]
Ah, cafeteria Christianity.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And I’ll have to disagree with you. I in fact believe you are damaged.
Back to judging others so quickly? You might want to set that stone down while you still can.
Gambit is right; it takes a lot hubris to judge the health and happiness of someone you don’t even know based on a misguided religious belief.
Thanks for the judgment, but I think if you ask anyone that actually knows me they will tell you that my life is much happier, more peaceful, more integrated, and overall better than when I was a repressed gay Mormon.[/quote]
I didn’t say you weren’t happy.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Ah, cafeteria Christianity. [/quote]
Sort of like quoting Paul on gays, while ignoring Paul’s statement that it is a commandment of God that women not speak in church or have their heads uncovered?
Got it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I didn’t say you weren’t happy.[/quote]
So I can choose to be miserable, lonely, and in pain…but undamaged according to your definition.
Or I can choose to be happy, integrated, and at peace…but damaged according to your definition.
Hell in this life for the sake of your version of heaven in the life to come?
No thanks.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Ah, cafeteria Christianity.
Sort of like quoting Paul on gays, while ignoring Paul’s statement that it is a commandment of God that women not speak in church or have their heads uncovered?
Got it.
[/quote]
Who said I ignore that? I’m old school.