Gunning for Mormons

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
II have had many experiences in my life, that have allowed my testimony to grow to know that it is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know we have a prophet on the earth today.[/quote]

I not only parroted those same words countless times as a missionary and in sacrament meeting, but I sincerely meant them at the time. I KNEW without a shadow of doubt that the church was true.

You see, the Mormon church teaches people that if they pray about something and feel a warm emotional confirmation in their heart, that feeling is evidence that God has confirmed the truth of what they are praying about. Once they have this divine “confirmation”, no amount of objective evidence to the contrary will make any difference to their testimony.

It doesn’t matter that Joseph Smith took the wives of faithful priesthood holders as his own, that he provided a false “translation” of common funerary scrolls that he claimed were written by Abraham, that he blatantly transcribed the Small Sensen text directly into Facsimile 2 as if this was the original text, that he looked through a magical stone with his face planted in a hat while “translating” ancient documents, etc. None of that matters because you have prayed, and the “burning in your bosom” has confirmed that despite all of this charlatanism, Joseph Smith really was a Prophet of God.

Saying you’re sorry doesn’t bring these people back to life. Nor does it absolve the enormous pain experienced by current gay Mormons who are unable to reconcile their religion with their sexual orientation.

Rather than offering an apology, the LDS church might consider the fundamental correctness of its stance on homosexuality. I’m not holding my breath on that, but who knows? Maybe the prophet will receive a “revelation” like he did on polygamy and blacks holding the priesthood. Meanwhile, gay Mormons will continue to be damaged by the perpetuation of these false beliefs.

Only if domestic partnerships provide the federal benefits of marriage, which currently they do not.

142

[quote]Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example. Don’t be a hypocrite. Christians can and HAVE to jude. Otherwise, the sermon on the mount means nothing. [/quote]

Jesus didn’t say, “He that hasn’t committed adultery, let him cast the first stone.”

He said, “He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”

Are you claiming to be without sin?

143

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example. Don’t be a hypocrite. Christians can and HAVE to jude. Otherwise, the sermon on the mount means nothing.

Jesus didn’t say, “He that hasn’t committed adultery, let him cast the first stone.”

He said, “He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”

Are you claiming to be without sin?[/quote]

Where am I advocating the physical punishment of prostitues, adulterers, or gays?

144

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example. Don’t be a hypocrite. Christians can and HAVE to jude. Otherwise, the sermon on the mount means nothing.

Jesus didn’t say, “He that hasn’t committed adultery, let him cast the first stone.”

He said, “He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”

Are you claiming to be without sin?[/quote]

Oh, and in this case Jesus did point out that she was in fact sinning, by telling her to go and sin no more.

145

[quote]forlife wrote:
Bigd1970 wrote:
II have had many experiences in my life, that have allowed my testimony to grow to know that it is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know we have a prophet on the earth today.

I not only parroted those same words countless times as a missionary and in sacrament meeting, but I sincerely meant them at the time. I KNEW without a shadow of doubt that the church was true.

You see, the Mormon church teaches people that if they pray about something and feel a warm emotional confirmation in their heart, that feeling is evidence that God has confirmed the truth of what they are praying about. Once they have this divine “confirmation”, no amount of objective evidence to the contrary will make any difference to their testimony.

It doesn’t matter that Joseph Smith took the wives of faithful priesthood holders as his own, that he provided a false “translation” of common funerary scrolls that he claimed were written by Abraham, that he blatantly transcribed the Small Sensen text directly into Facsimile 2 as if this was the original text, that he looked through a magical stone with his face planted in a hat while “translating” ancient documents, etc. None of that matters because you have prayed, and the “burning in your bosom” has confirmed that despite all of this charlatanism, Joseph Smith really was a Prophet of God.

I’m sorry for those who did not have the ability to work through their problems and felt that ending their life was easier than dealing with the problems they had.

Saying you’re sorry doesn’t bring these people back to life. Nor does it absolve the enormous pain experienced by current gay Mormons who are unable to reconcile their religion with their sexual orientation.

Rather than offering an apology, the LDS church might consider the fundamental correctness of its stance on homosexuality. I’m not holding my breath on that, but who knows? Maybe the prophet will receive a “revelation” like he did on polygamy and blacks holding the priesthood. Meanwhile, gay Mormons will continue to be damaged by the perpetuation of these false beliefs.

I think there are other ways for homosexuals to attain what they want with out taking away traditional marriage. Domestic Partnerships work just as well.

Only if domestic partnerships provide the federal benefits of marriage, which currently they do not.

[/quote]

So pretty much the church doesn’t agree with you, so it should change?

You are saying you shouldn’t try to change others, then stating the whole church should change their beliefs.

146

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Adultery is an example I used. The message is not to be a hypocrite. Cast out the plank from your own eye first, then cast out the plank in the others. Your reading of it is nonsense. A Christian wouldn’t even be able to judge adultery as a sin, and that’s obviously not the case.[/quote]

It was a speck in the others, not a plank. The plank was in your eye, big guy. And if you keep reading down to 7:15 or so, you may find yourself putting out some bad fruit. Hubris ranked somewhere in the deadly sins, didn’t it Mr. WithoutSin?

Funny that you picked adultery, as Jesus specifically mentioned that one… But go ahead and keep on casting those stones.

147

It’s always funny when someone googles up the most often badly misquoted (usually out of context) verses in an attempt to school lifelong Christians into not believing in sin.

148

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example. Don’t be a hypocrite. Christians can and HAVE to jude. Otherwise, the sermon on the mount means nothing.

Jesus didn’t say, “He that hasn’t committed adultery, let him cast the first stone.”

He said, “He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”

Are you claiming to be without sin?[/quote]

Once again, he is talking about a judgment of the person not the act.

The judgment of the action, adultery in this case, as being wrong still holds true. However, just because it is wrong, they don’t have the right to judge her, only God does. And Jesus at the end waves his right to condemn her.

149

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Adultery is an example I used. The message is not to be a hypocrite. Cast out the plank from your own eye first, then cast out the plank in the others. Your reading of it is nonsense. A Christian wouldn’t even be able to judge adultery as a sin, and that’s obviously not the case.

It was a speck in the others, not a plank. The plank was in your eye, big guy. And if you keep reading down to 7:15 or so, you may find yourself putting out some bad fruit. Hubris ranked somewhere in the deadly sins, didn’t it Mr. WithoutSin?

Funny that you picked adultery, as Jesus specifically mentioned that one… But go ahead and keep on casting those stones.[/quote]

Yes, the plank is one’s eye. It’s a plank (compared to a speck, a minor sin) because the sin isn’t just the same sin, it’s now also weighed down in hypocrisy.

Um, what stones? These are just words.

150

[quote]Sloth wrote:
It’s always funny when someone googles up the most often badly misquoted (usually out of context) verses in an attempt to school lifelong Christians into not believing in sin.[/quote]

It’s even funnier when one lifelong christian talks to another one, but the other simply doesn’t listen.

This isn’t about believing in sin or not; this is about judging and who should judge.

151

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Where am I advocating the physical punishment of prostitues, adulterers, or gays?[/quote]

He was talking about judging the sins of others, as clearly and unconditionally stated when he said “Judge not, that ye be not judged”.

152

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, and in this case Jesus did point out that she was in fact sinning, by telling her to go and sin no more. [/quote]

Jesus was sinless, so he was in a position to make that statement.

The point is that unless you are sinless, you shouldn’t be judging the sins of others.

153

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
I love the “religious types” on this site talking about how they HAVE TO JUDGE because of their christian values …

Obviously we have to judge what is sinful. And you’ll find those kind of judgements all throughout our text, and our traditions.

I’m pretty sure Jesus said “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” I don’t see an out clause in his statement, that it is actually ok to judge other people if you consider them to be sinful. Obviously, the woman taken in adultery was sinful by the standards of Jesus, yet he still told his followers not to judge her.[/quote]

Oh for crying out loud. He’s warning to not be like the Pharisees and the hypocrites. We must strive to deal with our own sins. If, say I want to tell my brother “You shouldn’t committ adultery, it’s sinful.” Does anyone here actually believe a Christian can’t make this judgement?! Are you serious? What the heck do you think the Apostles went around preaching? “We’d tell you how to live, but it’s all relative.” No! They taught what was sinful, preached against sinning and sinners, etc. They judged! They made judgements! Between right and wrong, godly and ungoldy, sin and good works, etc. What they were warned from, was acting like one of these TV evangelist hypocrites, caught with some other woman than their wife. Or, embezzling money. Whatever.

Keep it simple. The way you folks are trying to read these verses doesn’t even make sense.

154

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It’s always funny when someone googles up the most often badly misquoted (usually out of context) verses in an attempt to school lifelong Christians into not believing in sin.

It’s even funnier when one lifelong christian talks to another one, but the other simply doesn’t listen.

This isn’t about believing in sin or not; this is about judging and who should judge. [/quote]

If you believe in sin, you’re judging.

155

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, and in this case Jesus did point out that she was in fact sinning, by telling her to go and sin no more.

Jesus was sinless, so he was in a position to make that statement.

The point is that unless you are sinless, you shouldn’t be judging the sins of others.
[/quote]

Were the Apostles sinless?

156

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
You are saying you shouldn’t try to change others, then stating the whole church should change their beliefs.[/quote]

I’m saying the church is damaging the lives of people due to its beliefs. What it chooses to do with those beliefs is up to the church, but it doesn’t change the fact that people are being damaged in the process.

157

[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
You are saying you shouldn’t try to change others, then stating the whole church should change their beliefs.

I’m saying the church is damaging the lives of people due to its beliefs. What it chooses to do with those beliefs is up to the church, but it doesn’t change the fact that people are being damaged in the process.
[/quote]

People are being damaged because they a follow a destructive lifestyle.

158

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, and in this case Jesus did point out that she was in fact sinning, by telling her to go and sin no more.

Jesus was sinless, so he was in a position to make that statement.

The point is that unless you are sinless, you shouldn’t be judging the sins of others.
[/quote]

Are you even thinking through this? If Jesus wants people to sin no more, than there is sin. In order to instruct on what is sinful, what we should stop doing in order to stop sinning, we must judge! Keep it simple. Geeze.

159

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh for crying out loud. He’s warning to not be like the Pharisees and the hypocrites. We must strive to deal with our own sins.[/quote]

Exactly. He said it is perfectly fine to understand sin, but the application of that understanding should be limited to your own life. Don’t go around judging the sins of others until you are perfect yourself. Leave the judging of others to God, and don’t impose your beliefs on others.

If you believe homosexuality is sinful, don’t be gay. Leave the gays to God, and don’t try legislating your beliefs on us.

160

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It means, don’t go preaching against adultery if you’re an adulterer, for example.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Adultery is an example I used. The message is not to be a hypocrite. Cast out the plank from your own eye first, then cast out the plank in the others. Your reading of it is nonsense. A Christian wouldn’t even be able to judge adultery as a sin, and that’s obviously not the case.

It was a speck in the others, not a plank. The plank was in your eye, big guy. And if you keep reading down to 7:15 or so, you may find yourself putting out some bad fruit. Hubris ranked somewhere in the deadly sins, didn’t it Mr. WithoutSin?

Funny that you picked adultery, as Jesus specifically mentioned that one… But go ahead and keep on casting those stones.

Yes, the plank is one’s eye. It’s a plank (compared to a speck, a minor sin) because the sin isn’t just the same sin, it’s now also weighed down in hypocrisy.

Um, what stones? These are just words.[/quote]

It was a reference to another bible verse where Jesus talks about adultery. Did Jesus condemn her? Do you understand why I talked about Hubris?