There are ways. But to implement them would take serious, and I mean serious self-examination by Americans which would include going over damn near every social policy and even attitudes that have changed the social fabric of the country since the 1950’s and burying their conceits and arrogance and defiance of reality and nature. That’s near impossible to do for Americans. And it’s also actually impossible to discuss the details of this in full on here.
6 Likes
It seems with many things that there is a trade off between safety and liberty / freedoms. Many are willing to give up much of the later for small increases in the former. When I say small increases in safety, I mean that shootings still happen when there are guards and metal detectors. It’s a large cost for minimal benefit.
Understanding the scope of the issue is also important. There are about 30 casualties a year from school shootings. There are about 50,000,000 kids currently in k-12. So a student has less than 1 in a million odds of getting killed in a shooting per year. By comparison, roughly 2,500 teen drivers die each year. The media doesn’t report it and as a society we don’t think we have an issue.
I think we have a perception because of media that the situation is much worse than it actually is. I am not saying do nothing, but to decide what is done with an understanding of the situation, because there are tradeoffs to maximizing safety. Some kids live in fear thinking the their odds are far worse than they are. Time is spent going through metal detectors. Taxes are spent on guards (that don’t guarantee safety).
I am not trying to come off as having a cold heart or anything. Just a pattern I’ve noticed within society with things like the TSA, laws meant to increase public safety, etc… They come with a cost, and many people don’t understand just how safe they were before the new safety measure.
2 Likes
How far back is your starting point for this stat?
How many mass shootings happen in court houses?
Casualties should include wounded, not just killed. The number that is more relevant is number of shootings, 189. That’s what, about 19 a year?
I understand the statistics but they don’t comfort parents when it isn’t a question of if there will be a school shooting but when.
I came back in time to see that @BrickHead laid out my thoughts for me in a much more concise manner in post 1542 here.
It probably doesn’t come as a surprise to you that I’m in agreement with what you’ve laid out in your post.
I suppose the genesis of my post is a result of frustration with conversations I’ve been somewhat forced into with well meaning liberals the last few months. Fortunately they’re reasonable people and don’t take woke stances on gun issues, but, agreeing to disagree doesn’t seem to satisfy their need to be right on the issue either.
With this being the policy thread I should include that, I don’t have any suggestions on what may prevent things like mass shootings occurring from a policy perspective that aren’t also gross oversteps that disproportionally affect law abiding citizens.
2 Likes
I didn’t get that impression from @jshaving’s post. It seemed to me that he’s not questioning why we need to guard our kids, but he’s questioning why this phenomenon is occurring more frequently and if that’s just the reality we have to live with moving forward.
I’d like to think we as a society are better than that. When I was in school we were not worried about shootings. I had an open campus in high school before our new building opened and I resented the new, secure facility.
4 Likes
Thats what I get from it too.
My sons school has as large and well armed police force as the community we live in.
I would rather not need them, but that is the state of things currently.
1 Like
But he is framing it as undesirable. To me, safety is always desirable. When I was a kid, we didn’t ride in car seats and most of the adults didn’t wear seatbelts, and most people didn’t die.
twojarslave named a school massacre from 1927 that I had never heard of.
Here’s another:
And another:
They seem to be increasingly common, but are also nothing new. Seems to me that school resource officers are a good thing. But what happens is the school safety discussion gets side-tracked into the gun control discussion, which guarantees that nothing will be done.
1 Like
Thanks again.
As I said, I plan on getting back to this thread by the end of the week, but for now I’ll chime in a bit more.
I see there has been talk here of mass/school shootings. Although there is mental illness in some of these incidents, what I see as the primary reason for the pervasive and outrageous amount of violent crime, gun crime included, obviously, in America, is the breakdown of social institutions that kept anti-social behavior in check, including the nuclear-family system. And they were deliberately destroyed!
There are other reasons that we can get into, but the above mentioned has lead to serious alienation amongst young men who have little to lose and feel justified at lashing out at society. And peculiarly, to make matters worse, other men get a buzz off belittling alienated and disenfranchised men.
Just as an aside: There was an enormous uptick in violent subway and street crimes in NYC over the past two years (eg, innocent people beaten to a pulp, stabbed, thrown onto subway tracks, jewelry snatched, etc., including old people) and I don’t recall any involving guns.
2 Likes
any reason why there is no mention of video games?
Violent entertainment and music consumed by mostly young people, particularly that which glorifies violence can be discussed. I think it should be.
I’ll never forget some time in the past year I was in the gym and a rap song was playing in which some of the lyrics were something like, “getting my ski mask, gettin’ ready to light the town up” (mass shooting). @fitafter40
1 Like
I could just be reading the message differently, it might just be my own lens I view the world through coloring the words.
I don’t think safety measures implemented in schools to keep kids safe is undesirable. I think the fact that we have a need for such measures is undesirable, but that’s a different albeit related train of thought.
4 Likes
I hear you. I do my best to avoid these types of discussions (especially gun control discussions) with all but a few friends, all but a few family members and every co-worker. Sometimes you get forced into one, sometimes you slip up and take the bait, and sometimes you decide to casually write about your thoughts on policy in a bodybuilding and strength training forum.
The sad truth is that I’ve rarely come across an outspoken proponent of strict gun control measures in the USA who takes the time to be thoughtful about their strongly-held policy positions. Concerned? Sure. Compassionate? Definitely. Well-informed on the subject at hand? Not once. These are people who, whether they realize it or not, prioritize self-congratulation over real-world outcomes as a basis for their policy position.
That’s not to say I’m against any and all policies relating to gun control, just nearly all of the ones being seriously put forward at the moment. I think there’s a really good discussion to be had regarding Red Flag Laws, and I’m not entirely sure how I feel about them. If we could somehow set the bar for their invocation at a level that safeguards against abuse, I think it could actually avert some really bad outcomes.
That said, the notion of getting your rights stripped based off of someone’s bad feelings about you absolutely opens the door to all kinds of actual government oppression for the flimsiest of reasons. That’s a major concern, and it may trump the concern about pre-empting the 1 in 20 million guys from orchestrating their murder fantasy, whatever it may be.
The way to win liberals over on gun control is to let the bad outcomes of their policies and rhetoric shift their opinions about the importance of personal protection. You can’t force it, it just has to happen on it’s own, or not. That’s how conservatives and bitter old socialists have always been created.
2 Likes
Another factor I believe plays a role in violent crime in America: heavy medication or inappropriate medication.
Article I saved this past summer.
3 Likes
Yup. It’s pathetic. But few Americans can even think of a reason about why schools, society at large, and our cities became increasingly violent over the past seven decades!
They cannot even at least theorize about the matter.
2 Likes
I’m sure he’s coming from a good place, but it’s feelings getting in the way of actual solutions. Speaking of feelings, the argument “feels” like arguing with someone who won’t wear their seat belt.
Moved from a deep blue to a deep red state. I am so thankful my kids have an armed police officer in their school at all times. It wasn’t like that back home. Every school event has armed police here.
As far as gun control is concerned going forward, politicians can write words on paper all day, changes nothing.
I’d like to point out
Between 1993-2019 rates of violent crime have actually decreased quite a bit.
Between 2019-2022 (during covid and/or what might have been escalating race related tension in the USA) violent crime has increased, before decreasing slightly between 2022-2023
Certain cities have enacted legislature that has made it easier for people to avoid prosecution for various crimes. Within these cities (think Portland, San Fransisco etc) there has been a surge in property crime, the rise of “tent cities” and assault.
There was also a dramatic increase in violent crime/assaults on subways and public transport in certain cities (NYC comes to mind in particular) between 2021-2022.
When mass shootings occur in America, news outlets cover not only the shooting… but who the perpetrator was coupled with details of the perpetrators life and whereabouts thus providing ‘fifteen minutes of fame’.
This tends to inspire copycat killings. There’s also the element of domestic terrorism and growing civil unrest/division that is very much omnipresent in the USA.
Final fact (i’m only providing a few tid bits that may or may not meaningfully contribute to the conversation at large). Contrary to popular knowledge, America is not the only country that allows for permitless possession of firearms.
Other countries that do so aside from Yemen are considerably more restrictive with what they do or don’t allow.
Austria for instance allows for permitless possession of certain hunting rifles. Their firearm homicide rate is lower per capita relative to that of Australia. Their firearm suicide rate is higher than Aus… but overall suicide rate per capita is equitable.
If the equation was as simple as “guns=homicides” you wouldn’t see that downward trajectory re overall violent crime rates (and firearm homicide rates) from 1993-2019.
It certainly plays a role, but overlapping cultural archetypes present within a society seems to matter more.
Other variables…
- poverty
- alcohol abuse
- drug addiction
- fundamental sense of distrust sewn within various communities
- mental illness/alienation
- ease of access to firearms within mentally ill cohorts (licit or illicit)
- widespread presence of illicit firearms
In Australia (batshit crazy nanny state) we went from a paradigm more in line with America to having some of the strictest firearm regulations because a guy who was plausibly schizophrenic, on heavy duty psych meds and had a history of torturing animals decided to illicitly procure an assault rifle and go on a massacre within a densely populated town.
Chances are he would have never been able to legally procure a weapon.
However American society runs on radical individualism… Australians, contrary to popular belief… are rule obsessed drones… especially when it comes to safety.
I’m not a proponent for America’s gun laws… or Australia’s gun laws… I like the idea of a middle ground.
I don’t think an individual such as myself with major depressive disorder should be allowed to own a firearm (on private property). The risk to the individual would be too high.
Mentally healthy people without felony and/or violent crime related convictions? Yes
But depends on type of firearm… i’m no expert on firearms.
1 Like