Gun Laws

I grew up in a military family and was taught never to feel too safe or secure, no matter how unthreatening my immediate surroundings, to anticipate whatever threat from whatever direction, at any time. Such caution has served me well in a number of situations.

After getting out of the military in the mid-â??70s I took a sales job with a company that sold steel products to the construction industry. In the course of about three weeks in 1978, I was forced to draw a firearm to protect myself on two different occasions.

I covered 13 states by car and normally spent several nights a week in hotels. It was lonely work and nights were normally spent in my hotel room. I was raised in a military family and grew up shooting a 1911 .45ACP. It was my weapon of choice and I purchased a new Colt Commander when I got my first traveling job. I used to take it with me on the road for protection. I would look for indoor pistol ranges in the various cities that I traveled to and would normally shoot at least once a week.

That same year, my company hired another salesman and he traveled with me for a two-week training period. One night we returned to the hotel from dinner and as we were getting out of the car, the trainee asked to borrow the car to go to the drug store for some cold medicine. I was in a dilemma.

My pistol was loaded under the driverâ??s seat and I was not willing to let him take the car with the pistol. I gave him my okay but quickly took the pistol and slid it into my pants in the small of my back underneath my sports coat. He left and I started walking to my room. I stopped in the lobby to get a cup of coffee and then headed across the lawn to my room on the inner courtyard.

This was long before any states of awareness were taught but I would have classified myself that night as Condition White. As I walked I was slightly surprised by a man who came up on my right and started up a conversation. We said a few words and then I continued to my room, opened the door and went in to put my coffee down. As I put it down it dawned on me that the door had not shut.

I turned to push it closed and found the man I had talked with standing in my room with a look that spoke trouble.

Instinctively, I reached back, drew my pistol and pointed it right at his chest. The click of the safety coming off sounded loud in the room. Before I could say a word, his demeanor changed and he blurted out, â??I think Iâ??m in the wrong room.â?? He turned, grabbed the door handle and was gone. I was stunned and it took me several minutes to calm down.

Three weeks later in another hotel room, someone knocking loudly on the door awakened me around midnight. As I looked through the peephole I saw a woman dressed in an open blouse and skintight shorts. In very seductive language she implied that I had asked her up for a good time. This time my awareness jumped immediately to Condition Orange.

I retrieved my pistol from the bedside table. On a hunch I went to the other side of the room and peered out of the window from around the curtain. A huge man stood in front of the window with a baseball bat in his hand, waiting for me to open the door. I pulled the curtain back enough for the man to see me hold up the pistol and again snap off the safety. His eyes got very big, but he showed no fear. He walked up to the woman grabbed her arm and they simply walked off.

In both cases I reported the incident to the hotel management. Both apologized and said that sort of thing just never happens in their hotel! I wasnâ??t convinced and went home and asked my boss for a larger daily hotel allowance. Iâ??m considerably older now but as I look back on those experiences I can see that was the time that I got serious about protecting myself and my family. By the way, my late father-in-law was robbed in that same hotel a month later.

The alarm went off at 3:45 A.M. and I rose to wash my face, get dressed and loaded up my gear. I walked out of our apartment, two blocks west of downtown to a muggy May morning. I was going to be wade fishing and had put on some cargo shorts and a thin maroon t-shirt. The set-up was not much for concealing my handgun, which I had initially planned on leaving at home.

This was only about a month after receiving my carry permit and I think the events that took place this particular morning went on to solidify my stance on carrying with poise, purpose and perseverance. Too many people go through the time consuming and expensive process of becoming legal to carry, and then they become complacent with their safety.

After loading my rods and pack I reached for the door handle to my truck and then decided I could always slip my holster and gun into my shorts for the short ride. I went back inside the house, unknown to my wife who was trying to regain control of our Dachshund, and positioned my .45 ACP pistol slightly behind my right hip. I thank God everyday that I made that 2-minute delay.

As I turned the corner leaving our apartment the fuel light came on. I didnâ??t think much of it and made my way to the gas station about four blocks away. This station is only six blocks from downtown and is a known hangout for the homeless and unemployed. However, my wife and I had come to know the regulars and felt comfortable enough being around them and would even talk to a few.

We considered it a ministry opportunity and we would do our best to help them out with clothes, shoes or food coupons. As I was turning into the gas station I noticed two people I had never seen before walking towards the direction I was coming from.

They were obviously chemically altered and the thought entered my mind that two â??stonersâ?? walking around at 4:15 A.M. probably werenâ??t up to any good. This thought was confirmed as they made an about face and headed back to the station. I pulled into the farthest, most well lit pump and waved to the attendant to let him know I was there and started pumping.

I stand about 6 feet tall and carry 215 pounds on an athletic frame, not your typical target. At least so I thought. As I was pumping gas I put my back to my vehicle. I was facing the pump and noticed movement out of my left eye. I saw one of the men heading my way looking straight at me. I made a firm wave motion with my left hand and said â??No thanks.â??

At this moment the man became jumpy and started to play with his hair and face, all while continuing his path towards me. At this point I knew he was not the typical beggar we were used to dealing with. I took my right hand and lifted my shirt and grasped the grip of the pistol and very forcefully told him â??NO!â??

Although he couldnâ??t see my gun, he knew something wasnâ??t right and he quickly turned his back while making a waving motion with his hand as if trying to communicate with someone else.

I moved three feet to my right to where I could see completely around the pump and spotted his friend staring at me from behind the corner of the store, about 45 feet away. This man, however, could see my hand and what was in it. They both took off quicker than they got there.
The moral of the story is to carry and carry with purpose.

I almost left my gun at home, and while I didnâ??t have to use it, its mere presence helped sway the odds in my direction. If you are going to carry at all, you might as well carry as frequently as possible.

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
Well post exemplar cases where guns have prevented crimes. They are probably out there I just want to see some.[/quote]

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
Ok…here are a few.[/quote]

So? What say you?

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
guys try to rob a motherfucking GUN STORE

[/quote]

Those are the dumbest criminals in history. I cannot even fathom the stupidity.

JP thanks for fighting the good fight.

As for the homicide rate. Yes, lets take something in isolation and ignore all other factors and all other violent crime. That makes sense! A child can see that something is odd about the US when it comes to homicide. We have relatively low overall violent crime rate statistics (higher in gun-control areas lol), but high homicide rates, compared to other industrialized nations.

Thus, clearly we should ignore this deviance from expectation and run with it without context!!! Of course not. In fact, the US NONGUN homicide rate is higher than total homicide rate for most other industrialized nations. A trend that has been relatively consistent for quite a long time (a century or more). While it is hard to determine exactly why this might be, one proposed reason is that we are a nation of immigrants. And have been for a very long time. And…immigrants form gangs. Once upon a time it was the irish and the italians. Now it’s hispanics and african-americans. Funnily enough, belonging to a gang is the number one risk factor for becoming a victim of homicide. After that, being caught in an affair.

Extrapolating a bit further, recently the enlightened beautiful and perfect Europe who we should strive to emulate has had a pretty much continental crime surge over the past two decades, including homicide. This has coincided with two things: 1) ever more draconian gun and self-defense laws (self defense, even without a weapon, is now a crime in Great Britain) ans 2) sizeable growth in immigration. Connected? Probably.

Edit: Oh and before anyone screams something about being anti-immigrant. I should hope not. Since I am one.

United States of America
Murders with firearms 9,369 [1st of 36]

JP, where are those stories from?

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:
Gettnitdone you are a dumb ass. A “racist” old man that killed two helpless african americans, that just happen to have been robbing his neighbors house. You sir have your values on backwards. I am pretty sure that if he actually shot thieves, he was justified in doing so. I am assuming he gave them a warning to stop, at that point if they threatened him it is green for gun fire. We can’t just shoot thieves or some one committing an illegal act. Even if you shoot some one and it seems justifiable you will have to defend yourself in the court of law most likely. Wait a fucking minute your from New Zealand can you even own guns? Do you own any? If not read my earlier thread where I said if your country wont allow you to own guns or you dont own any then you have no clue what is right or wrong with all this bullshit you are spewing.

And there are shitloads of examples of guns stopping crimes. I am a member of the NRA in my magazine I get every month there is a page dedicated to short articles describing such examples.[/quote]

Man stfu im trying to have a civilized discussion over the internet and you have to resort to name calling and writing sentences no one can understand. Maybe you need to out down that NRA mag and read a real book. Learn to respect other peoples points of views my man.

Im not against people owning guns I just dont like people that wield just because they can, who smile every time they look at their guns. Every country needs strict gun laws because obviously there are some retards like Plax and Gilbert Arenas who are a danger to themselves and others (they are dumb asses).

As for us in NZ I dont know much about our gun laws but I do know that hardly anyone carries, including the police. Thats right, you heard it: our police do not carry firearms, they carry tasers. That does not mean we dont have units that are trained for specific incidents. These men do wield and wield big and are called whenever a incident worthy appears (rarely). The situation? A very low homicide rate and low crime rate. Heck even some gang members don’t carry, they know their territory. They intimidate b/ they’re mostly big pacific islander mtherfuckers that will fuck you up. We are however smokers, having one of the highest rate of cannabis smokers per capita.

JP thanks for the stories although be careful with first person reports for obvious reasons.

those are b.s stats push im surprised you relying on them. what do they mean bro? There are 4 mil people in NZ and we are a western country. Most rapes and assaults are in the south island and who knows what kinda shit goes on there. I know that in Auckland where 2 mill people live hardly anything ever happens. We have a drug problem in this country maybe that will help explain PROPER stats when you find them.

From the same website:

FACTOID 12: in pure number terms, more crimes are committed in America than in any other nation. The same goes for burglaries, car thefts, rapes and assaults.

JP: Thanks for the stories.

I have a CCW here in Virginia, and am very glad I live in a ‘shall issue’ state. I’m originally from New York, which has some of the worst gun laws in the country.

Gettinitdone: While I respect your opinion, to me your words only strengthen the position that we’d be better of with more legal gun owners. You note that in NZ the regular police often carry tasers, but that only “some gang members don’t carry [pistols].” I’d feel much more comfortable if the majority of the guns in my country were NOT owned illegally by gang members.

Alright 2 pages in and this thread is starting to piss me off, so im just going to rant:

  1. Just because you’re too dumb to understand the right to self defense doesn’t mean that we should ban all guns. Think guns are dangerous? They are. Especially if CRIMINALS HAVE THEM.

  2. If you don’t want a gun, then DONT BUY ONE. Other people, like myself, understand that guns are perfectly safe if you treat them with respect. Dont go preaching “lets go ban all guns” because of a few incidents. MY uncle was a world record holder for trick shooting and quick draw, shot himself in the foot, got gangrene, and passed away. It was sad, but accidents just happen.

  3. Please, Before you say “X number of people die from guns each year” do yourself a favor and look up how many people die by auto accidents each year. Then I’ll tell you which of the two should be reformed.

  4. Also, I gues we should teach you some simple math. Rates matter more than actual incidents.

"FACTOID 12: in pure number terms, more crimes are committed in America than in any other nation. The same goes for burglaries, car thefts, rapes and assaults. "

Pure number terms. THE US HAS OVER 300 MILLION PEOPLE! Do you even know how to apply percentages?

FACTOID 13: IF YOU HAVE A HIGHER RATE OF OVERALL CRIME, PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED MORE FREQUENTLY THAN A LARGER COUNTRY WITH A SMALLER CRIME RATE.

“They intimidate b/ they’re mostly big pacific islander mtherfuckers that will fuck you up.”

Thats when you should be greeting them with a big mossberg 500.

Stop sterotyping americans with plaxico buress and gilbert. The pen is NOT mightier than the sword, and your crime RATES prove it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Another lame post. Just completely stupid to essentially say the south island doesn’t count. You let me do the same with several gang infested areas in the US and I can breathtakingly drop America’s crime stats.

The “pure numbers” whine and cheese pretty much dismisses you from this debate. America has 300 + million people and NZ has 4 million. Of course, the pure numbers of US crimes will exceeds NZ’s. You are dumber than a sack of rocks riding in the back of the short bus to bring up such a inane argument. Check out of here now and go back to tokin’.

The link works just fine and speaks for itself.[/quote]

If my posts are lame your posts are just as lame lol. Thing is you’re treating people that have a slightly different opinions to yours as being dumbasses.

I realize that fact relates to pure numbers. I know you have 300 million people but I also know China has 4 times your population, so does India, both 3rd world countries. You’re the richest motherfucker on the planet too. But hey I am not trying to argue your way. Your little stats relate to more socio economic conditions in a country. This is a thread about guns.

On a side note our gangs are like the Hells Angels over there and etc. You know they are gang members because they all wear patches. A lot of them are Maori and Pacific islander so have strong communities which are identified areas. They dont migrate anywhere. Our police dont carry so while I understand that in some situations it may be useful I also know that they are respected.

Again so I can avoid stereotype. I like guns and are for them but also like the laws and restrictions that are placed on them. I trust that people will contact their legislators in impact if they see there is a problem with an argument other than ‘its too hard to get one.’

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
United States of America
Murders with firearms 9,369 [1st of 36]
[/quote]
That’s a rather useless statistic if you don’t normalize by population. Also, “gun-related deaths” is probably a more useful thing to measure than just homicides.

Gun-related deaths per 100,000 people (in 1994) for four countries:

USA 14.24
Switzerland 5.31
Israel 2.91
Japan 0.05

Admittedly, after normalizing the USA still tops the list of the world’s 36 wealthiest countries.

Note that Switzerland and Israel both have many more guns per capita than the USA. Switzerland actually requires that all able-bodied male citizens keep fully-automatic firearms at home (basically, every adult male is in the army reserves). Despite having all these guns - or perhaps as a result of having all these guns, with universal training in their use - both countries manage to have much lower gun-related death rates than the USA.

Japan, in contrast, has very low private gun ownership and tight control of those few guns, and the lowest gun-related death rate of all the wealthy countries. It is often held up as a poster child for gun control. However, there are huge cultural differences between Japan and the USA which bear on Japan’s low rate, some of which boggle the American mind. Read this:

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm

(The linked article is originally from The American Rifleman. I’m something of a Japanophile and to the best of my knowledge everything stated in the article is true.)

Basically, gun control as practiced in Japan would never work in the USA even if the Second Amendment magically disappeared. And the guns and ammo already in the hands of American citizens are certainly not going to disappear. And it just ain’t the American way, for better or worse.

Given those facts, it seems to me we might want to emulate countries that combine high rates of gun ownership with universal training in their safe use - such as Switzerland and Israel.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

…I am in favor of state firearms licenses like you get for driving a car. Before you can own a gun you should know how to handle one safely. There should be a written and practical exam involved, as with driving. It should be mandatory before you are allowed to buy a firearm.[/quote]
Then you need climb on board and propose and work to implement the hypothetical 28th Amendment that says: The Second Amendment to the Constitution is hereby repealed."

You simply can’t be in favor of what you proposed above unless you are willing to go through the proper channels to eliminate the huge roadblock in front of you that emphatically states, “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
[/quote]
Oh really? I don’t think it’s much of a roadblock.

Here in New York City, a license is required to possess a handgun. There are reasons why a license may be denied, such as being a convicted felon or having a history of mental illness. It can be denied simply at the discretion of the NYPD License Division, although one can presumably challenge this. Simple possession of an unlicensed handgun, if loaded and outside one’s home or place of business, is a felony with a minimum sentence of 3.5 years.

Last I checked, Gotham was part of the United States and thus presumably the Second Amendment applies here. Nevertheless these gun laws have stood for a long time without having been judged unconstitional.

As for rural Montana, surely the right of the people to keep and bear arms is infringed at least a bit by the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the National Firearms Act, again without being ruled unconstitional.

“Shall not be infringed” is clearly not being construed to mean “not regulated in any way.” I don’t see how requiring a written and practical exam to obtain a gun license, similar to what is required to obtain a drivers license, is going too far with respect to the Second Amendment, given the existing precedents.

You yourself have argued in favor of training in the safe use of firearms. What is your argument then against a written and practical exam demonstrating that a citizen has had such training?

Note that gun registration is a separate issue, much like drivers licenses vs motor vehicle registrations. I’m opposed to gun registration, for the usual reasons involving our last defense against tyrants.

I should also note in passing, lest I be accused of an urban bias against guns, that my other place of residence is New Hampshire where you’re looked at with suspicion if you don’t own a gun.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
… If you care to argue this point then I will immediately decide to be in favor of state speech licenses like you get for driving a car. Before you can post on the internet you should know how to speak responsibly. There should be a written and practical exam involved, as with driving. It should be mandatory before you are allowed to post on the internet, speak at a political rally or write your congressman. After all the pen is sharper than the sword.

The next thing I’ll do … is decide to be in favor of state religion licenses like you get for driving a car. Before you can choose the church of your choice you should know how to worship responsibly and safely. There should be a written and practical exam involved, as with driving. It should be mandatory before you are allowed to step foot in a religious service, serve as a church elder, priest or pastor or teach Sunday School.

After that I think I’ll decide to be in favor of state journalism licenses like you get for driving a car. Before you can publish a newspaper you should know how to exercise responsible journalistic practices. There should be a written and practical exam involved, as with driving. It should be mandatory before you are allowed to be a reporter, publisher, or editor.[/quote]

A gun, like a car, is a lethal weapon.

A careless driver can injure or kill others with just a momentary lapse of judgement, and regret his or her actions a moment later - but the damage cannot be undone.

A person with a gun can injure or kill others in a moment of rage or panic, and regret his or her actions a moment later - but the damage cannot be undone.

You cannot compare free speech or freedom of belief to driving a car or bearing a gun. They do not have the same potential for immediate and permanent damage to others.

I am very much for personal responsibility and suffering the consequences of one’s actions, but I also recognize that humans - myself included - are imperfect creatures who make mistakes all too easily. In general, trying to set things up to reduce the likelihood that a momentary lapse of judgement will have lethal consequences is a good idea.

Nothing to say that hasn’t been said supporting Gun Ownership. But I’m definately Pro-Gun. Actually, I smile and get all fuzzy inside when I look at my guns. I just can’t believe how much people want to restrict guns.

Gun control = a tight grouping.

jwillow: The problem with the NYC law you mention is the “discretion of the NYPD License Division” bit. In practice this translates to no one (unless perhaps frineds of the NYPD License division, and retired police officers) getting a permit. You can challenge the decision until you’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t mean they will change their minds.

There is an assumption here that it is OK to restrict at will. Shall issue states are much more fair, and treat people as the responsible adults that most of us are.

In one of your posts you stated that one, “cannot compare free speech or freedom of belief to driving a car or bearing a gun,” and that “They do not have the same potential for immediate and permanent damage to others.” I feel this interpretation of the Constitution, and our law and history more generally, is misguided.

I would suggest reading Tribe’s “American Constitutional Law”, Amar’s “The Bill of Rights”, and the D.C. V. Heller case before jumping into the deep end.