Gun Control

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

What is 1 example situation where a gun is really important to you and should not be taken away?[/quote]

That is a really terrible line of thinking. It implicitly states that “if it is not really utilitarian we can take it away with no moral repercussion”. Essentially what you just implied is that the default status of any object in particular is “OK to be taken away by the government unless you have a good reason why we should LET you keep this object”.

This is terrible and anti-Consititutional. Natural rights are natural rights, they are not subject to the whims of government whether they are of utilitarian use or not. They are innate rights.

I knew you were left leaning, but I cannot believe that you would seriously advance this line of reasoning.

And don’t pull the “I didn’t say that” card. It is obviously implied by your statement…obviously implied at least to anyone who took logic classes or debate. It doesn’t have to be explicitly stated to be present as an underlying premise to your argument. It is a monstrously faulty premise.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
I read that she had bought the guns for self defense. I understood that it also became a hobbie because “she enjoyed the single mindedness of shooting”.

The question to ask is why a mother of a mentally ill child takes him to a shooting range?

For all we know she might be training him to use them to potentially defend her or defend himself.
She seemed very protective and hopeful for him in having a normal life.
Maybe she even thought since he was mummy’s boy he would only use the guns to defend her.

There was no father in the picture and she could have clung to that boy in a way as to replace the emotional connection appropriate for a husband and wife only.

A lot of women replace the emotional void left by a man with one of their children; preferably a male child, usually the weakest one.

We don’t know the degree of trust and/or expectation and why he was ever exposed to her guns.

This has nothing to do with shooting paper.[/quote]

At which point, you start to think that maybe she wasn’t the best person to decide if that number and type of firearms was appropriate in her house.[/quote]

It is a good question and I have been thinking about that one with no answer yet.

I had been thinking along the lines that she should have never been allowed to own guns: should have failed a background check and been denied the right to legally own guns on account of living with and caring for a a mentally ill person.

But doesn’t that require government regulation?

As I mentioned above, I would not doubt she was psychologically ill herself.
Any normal person dealing with a mentally ill relative seeks support and feels the need to talk about their difficulties.

She was secretive about it.

I am inclined to keep it at the community level of responsibility to protect itself:

It is up to the immediate neighborhood who was aware she “loved” guns, had a severely mentally ill child AND was “guarded about her home life”.

They knew it and played “nice” by socializing with her instead of calling her out on it.

Or, in other words, they could have isolated her emotionally/socially from the community if she had failed to be transparent about the secrets she was guarding in said neighborhood.

She was rich, she was known for great acts of “charity” by giving people money and she was educated.
Who in the community is going to question someone like this?

She “bough” her privacy and for all we know she was subconsciously either protecting or helping or both in the making of a monster.

My thoughts are still unclear on this one but she is the one that if I were her neighbor I would not trust and would even move away from.

[quote]H factor wrote:

Personal protection for myself, my family, friends, or even strangers. How many examples do you need? We could come up with hundreds of scenarios where a gun would be MY and THERE best defense against harm. What other reason do you need for why it shouldn’t be taken away? The safety of my loved ones isn’t good enough for you? [/quote]

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

Personal protection for myself, my family, friends, or even strangers. How many examples do you need? We could come up with hundreds of scenarios where a gun would be MY and THERE best defense against harm. What other reason do you need for why it shouldn’t be taken away? The safety of my loved ones isn’t good enough for you? [/quote]

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

no and yes.

Late to the party, but overall I think that further gun control is not the answer to preventing these kinds of tragedies. No matter what level of gun control there is, Americans will always have access to guns. I agree with automatic weapons bans, but I am hesitant to push beyond that due to what I believe is a point of diminishing return.

Instead the focus needs to be on the proper treatment of mental health on a societal and medical level. It must be realized that access to mental health services (especially in regards to potentially dangerous conditions) is a far more important medical need to society than people believe. If I have diabetes, heart disease, the sniffles, etc the only person at risk is myself. If I have these conditions, society promotes me getting to the doctor asap. Hell, if I don’t have insurance and I have a heart attack, rush me into the ER and I will get treatment. We do not approach mental health with the same urgency and these conditions can affect far more than one person (even a suicide has far reaching effects). Even when mental health conditions affect just one person, that is a life that can be lost or irreparably damaged. However, society is only just starting to turn the corner in promoting and accepting the need for help that some individuals have. On the whole, I believe we need to become simultaneously more accepting and more discerning in regards to mental illness: learn to realize that if somebody goes to get help, they may be just as functional as anybody else afterwards (remove the stigma) but also learn to recognize the signs of problems and work to get the appropriate help. Until we reach this point, you can remove whatever weapon you want from the picture and it will not help. That is not to say that this action will be 100% effective but the sad fact is that nothing ever will.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

At which point, you start to think that maybe she wasn’t the best person to decide if that number and type of firearms was appropriate in her house.[/quote]

Perhaps the question should be at which point should the boy be institutionalized?

And whose responsibility is it to wake her up to the fact her offspring was a danger to society and convince her to give up her committed “loving care” for him?

Instead of gun control why not advocate “nut” control?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
It is a good question and I have been thinking about that one with no answer yet.

I had been thinking along the lines that she should have never been allowed to own guns: should have failed a background check and been denied the right to legally own guns on account of living with and caring for a a mentally ill person.

But doesn’t that require government regulation?[/quote]

Working on the assumption she was relatively sane, I still wouldn’t go as far as to outright prohibit her from owning guns on the basis of her sons mental condition - but at the very least make sure there was something to make it less easy to access (case, padlock, etc).

Of course, this in turn would necessitate a third party to check every so often - should this be government or privately (contracted by the government) done? And while enlarging the government is traditionally (and probably rightfully) seen as bad, is this an instance of acceptable growth?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

Because certain crazy ass or sadistic motherfuckers just do not listen to “please don’t, I have a weapon”. And if you kill them after knocking them unconscious that is murder, not self defense, so irrelevant unless you want to go to jail. Killing is not a requirement for self defense…all the time. But it might be if a crackhead decides he wants your family hurt or someone breaks into your house high on drugs and not listening to reason. As a completely OBVIOUS aside, most people who break into houses are not prone to listening to reason or they would not be breaking into occupied houses in the first fucking place.

Yes I would settle for a knife over my bare hands if I had no gun. No I would not want to settle because it is much fucking safer to keep the crazy ass sadistic motherfucker out of arms reach with my gun. I’d probably still win with a knife, but I’d be much happier not to get hurt defending myself and I can do it from 15 yards away with a gun. You throw a knife you don’t get a second chance if you miss.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

Because a rapist is trying his best to violate you, a knife might only enrage him and make him kill you. A bullet to the head will probably stop him.

Maybe.

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
pushharder wrote
H factor wrote:

…You’re telling me you wouldn’t give up your guns to stop Friday’s shooting? To stop the Aurora one? To stop Virgina Tech?..

I would not give them up. It doesn’t matter what scenario you cook up.

The point was not to actually give them up[/quote]

Yet, above you said that you would give them up because you’re a good little lefty.

You’re an emotional wreck H factor. Just like most other liberals you are not thinking rationally.

“Sniff, sniff guns kill people therefore guns are baaaaaad.”

[/quote]

You have a personal vendetta with me. That is fine. You aren’t even reading my posts and you’re clogging up every thread I enter with your nasty attitude towards me. Quit ruining threads. [/quote]

I merely point out your inconsistencies. And you don’t like it.

On the one had you claim to be a libertarian. Yet, on the other hand you continually espouse liberal beliefs.

You can’t have it both ways.

Has anybody yet considered that this young man was framed for psychotic mass child murder?

Peter Lanza, VP of GE’s tax division and coincidental father of the accused shooter, was subpoenaed to testify against international bankers in the LIBOR scandal…

As was Robert Holmes, senior scientist for FICO and coincidental father of James Holmes, the Cinema 16 shooter.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

Because certain crazy ass or sadistic motherfuckers just do not listen to “please don’t, I have a weapon”. And if you kill them after knocking them unconscious that is murder, not self defense, so irrelevant unless you want to go to jail. Killing is not a requirement for self defense…all the time. But it might be if a crackhead decides he wants your family hurt or someone breaks into your house high on drugs and not listening to reason. As a completely OBVIOUS aside, most people who break into houses are not prone to listening to reason or they would not be breaking into occupied houses in the first fucking place.

Yes I would settle for a knife over my bare hands if I had no gun. No I would not want to settle because it is much fucking safer to keep the crazy ass sadistic motherfucker out of arms reach with my gun. I’d probably still win with a knife, but I’d be much happier not to get hurt defending myself and I can do it from 15 yards away with a gun. You throw a knife you don’t get a second chance if you miss.[/quote]

Yep knifes are just not the same, which is why I never said knife earlier.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

If he doesn’t have a problem raping me and destroying my life why should my conscience have a problem killing him?

If I lived in an area where a woman had shot a rapist I would be grateful she eliminated him from our midst.
Instead of paying tax money to feed and house him in prison while he continues to satisfy his sexual appetite also by raping others.

I am a 5"5 female.

What are the odds a highly charged testosterone equipped male will submit to me throwing rocks at him or using any object to make him unconscious? not even the police is trained to risk their lives like that.

Even if I had Bruce Lee skills, why would I chose a close contact weapon over the effectiveness of a gun?

And what chance does a woman have with a knife against a violent man who is probably armed with a gun himself?

What if he has a knife? Are we equal? No.

The gun is the equalizer for women against rape.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

Because certain crazy ass or sadistic motherfuckers just do not listen to “please don’t, I have a weapon”. And if you kill them after knocking them unconscious that is murder, not self defense, so irrelevant unless you want to go to jail. Killing is not a requirement for self defense…all the time. But it might be if a crackhead decides he wants your family hurt or someone breaks into your house high on drugs and not listening to reason. As a completely OBVIOUS aside, most people who break into houses are not prone to listening to reason or they would not be breaking into occupied houses in the first fucking place.

Yes I would settle for a knife over my bare hands if I had no gun. No I would not want to settle because it is much fucking safer to keep the crazy ass sadistic motherfucker out of arms reach with my gun. I’d probably still win with a knife, but I’d be much happier not to get hurt defending myself and I can do it from 15 yards away with a gun. You throw a knife you don’t get a second chance if you miss.[/quote]

Yep knifes are just not the same, which is why I never said knife earlier.[/quote]

Confused… you said " If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious" just above me?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

If a non-lethal alternative to the gun existed would you settle for that, or still defend the right for a gun?[/quote]

Like what? Killing a rapist softly with my love?
[/quote]

Why is killing a requirement? If for some reason it was, couldn’t you just do it with a knife or large object after they were unconscious from using the non-lethal gun?[/quote]

Because a rapist is trying his best to violate you, a knife might only enrage him and make him kill you. A bullet to the head will probably stop him.

Maybe.[/quote]
And because dead men don’t seek revenge or come back to finish the job.

[quote]H factor wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I like it when you back track it’s one of the most amusing things that you do around here

I haven’t back tracked ONE time.[/quote]

Not true, you first claimed that you would gladly give up your guns to prevent such an occurrence. When Push said that he wouldn’t give up his guns you back peddled by claiming that you wouldn’t actually give them up. Which is it? You can’t continue to claim to be a libertarian and espouse liberal beliefs. Because you’ll get called out on it every time. If not by me it will be by someone else who is tired of your masquerade.

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Zeb,

Leave H factor alone

[/quote]

Just leave Britney alone!

:frowning:

[quote]treco wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
pushharder wrote
H factor wrote:

…You’re telling me you wouldn’t give up your guns to stop Friday’s shooting? To stop the Aurora one? To stop Virgina Tech?..

I would not give them up. It doesn’t matter what scenario you cook up.

The point was not to actually give them up[/quote]

Yet, above you said that you would give them up because you’re a good little lefty.

You’re an emotional wreck H factor. Just like most other liberals you are not thinking rationally.

“Sniff, sniff guns kill people therefore guns are baaaaaad.”

[/quote]
Damn Zeb, I am laughing out loud like a nutso reading your posts to h factor
but come on the guy has said he owns guns and doesn’t think guns should be taken away
Let’s move on, you have a lot more to offer the thread than that.[/quote]

The guy said he would give them up as well. Pay attention treco. H factor has been gaming this entire board now for better than a month.