Gun Control III

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
So you don’t have a problem with 12 year olds walking around armed with guns?
[/quote]

Not that long ago this was perfectly okay. Why is it all of a sudden (relatively) damn near teenagers are incapable of being responsible with a weapon?

Regardless, even if 12 year old’s were legally allowed to buy guns the vast majority still wouldn’t. For one, they cost money. [/quote]

My little cousins use guns and they’re maaaybe 12? I believe younger. Use them pretty well too.

It’s not ok because you’ve turned “adulthood” into something that happens “later”, so we are running around with 30 fucking year old kids when they should have completely grown up more than 10 years ago. Because of the extended “kidhood” these things are now foreign and unusual. And as usual with the unusual, it is feared because it isn’t “normal”.

This is a culture thing not a damn gun thing, as jj-dude so efficiently pointed out.

Also RE: other countries–the UK has an astronomical violence rate and very insignificant gun ownership. “glassings” and so forth. The rate of violence and burglary are through the roof in many places.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Getting the idea? The issue is not just guns it is the way that ownership is being criminalized that does not recognize need. It is a moral crusade much like Prohibition – which was loudly marketed as the definitive way to drop the US murder rate of 5 per 100,000 ca. 1910. (Statistics showed alcohol was sometimes involved in murder.) By the 10 year mark the US murder rate more than doubled to 11 per 100,000 precisely because laws caused alcohol sales to criminalize. The Mafia went from being a small organization relegated to Italian communities to being the first international crime organization in history. Yes, this is a classic example of a set of laws that had almost the completely opposite effect, i.e., Prohibition was a criminogenic law, intentional or not. Gun laws are heading the same way.
[/quote]

Great post, but why do you keep using past tense when you refer to prohibition? You seem to assume laws are created to reduce crime. What if they are just a clever ruse which is used to convince people to lock the shackles on themselves? What if Master’s real goal is to imprison ever MORE and MORE people, and it has nothing to do with reducing crime?

I don’t know if slavery(100% real slavery) has ever before been accepted without an initial fight, but we’re headed that way. The fact that a decent number of people own weapons in this country is the only thing preventing our total enslavement. Of course, we already accept all sorts of regulations on firearm ownership in this country(pay tribute to Master in order to legally own a selective fire firearm, those convicted of an ever-growing list of rules called felonies aren’t allowed to possess firearms, etc.), so it’s probably just a matter of time.[/quote]

Prohibition was repealed. I would argue that the First Amendment has a lot more in it than people want to accept, especially given today’s sensibilities about social justice. See, at that time everyone had to be a member of the Church of England. Failure to attend was a criminal offense, tithes were required by law and the church had its own court system that could sentence you to death even. Most of the people in the Colonies at the point were not interested in the COE (French, Irish, German immigrants etc.) Everyone back then keenly felt that having the State in a position to also legislate morality was a disaster for all. (The Puritans left because they were more forward thinking than most of their fellows and saw the upcoming 30 Year’s War as a natural outgrowth of states mixing with religions. They “made haste from Babylon” in their memorable phrase.) Properly speaking, this was the only example they had back then. What else but a religion makes overarching moral claims? I believe that the better reading of the First Amendment is “Congress shall pass no law promoting a morality or ethical position.” Prohibition is but an example of why this is wise. The War on Drugs is another good example of moral crusades that turn into a morass.

With the demise of religion, most of the charitable things they did (help the poor, redistribute wealth, sermonize against the evils of alcohol, take care of the sick or elderly etc.) became secular social causes. An emphasis on social justice now means laws are being passed to do churchy things but as long as they are arguably marketed as secular, a narrow reading of the First Amendment says that’s ok.

As for slavery, it has been a universal in every culture everywhere at all times until very, very recently. Nobody “imposed” it initially and it arises spontaneously since if I lack food but pledge my labor to you for a time, I eat. It is still prevalent in places that do not have a service economy. Yes, that is right. The rise of the service economy destroyed slavery. It also destroyed gender roles (women don’t need a man or his family to take care of them if they can just go buy it all at Walmart on the cheap) and a lot of other things we consider bad. It is precisely those places where there is no services-based economy that slavery in various forms flourishes still. That is the bottom line for survival if you have nothing. Were there a massive economic collapse, we’d probably end up with slaves again in all but name within a few decades. Think about that.

I don’t believe for a minute that guns are all that stand between us and slavery. You shouldn’t either. Go get your gun and see how it works against that drone. No, the intent of the American Revolution was twofold to (a) let citizens live their lives and (2) make the government play by its own rules, which for most of US history has admirably been the case. It has been in the last 40 years or so that this has gotten way out of hand. Gun ownership stands as a litmus test now in several ways. One is what side of the progressive or supposedly conservative divide you stand on – that is the least interesting but loudest. The other, actually, is (or should be) some form or registration (almost no gun owners contest this or for that matter screenings) and how will it be used. (Note that the murder rate I gave in 1910 is still lower than today and guns were much, much easier to come by then. There was no gang/drug violence though which accounts for much of the murder rate.)

If gun ownership were treated more like car ownership I doubt there would be much of an issue anywhere. The de facto position of the government is that since some criminals own guns, everyone who owns one is a probable cancer in the body politic. In other words, the people themselves are seen as being a threat to the country. If this is the case, what purpose does the government serve? The question, then, is this: has the government lost the idea that it serves the people? It is this feeling across the political spectrum that fuels most public discourse with finger pointing and blaming falling squarely on ideological lines. That should not be the case. The real political question is, as it has been for 2 centuries of liberty vs. authoritarianism.

Full of shit as always,

– jj

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Prohibition was repealed. I would argue that the First Amendment has a lot more in it than people want to accept, especially given today’s sensibilities about social justice. See, at that time everyone had to be a member of the Church of England. Failure to attend was a criminal offense, tithes were required by law and the church had its own court system that could sentence you to death even. Most of the people in the Colonies at the point were not interested in the COE (French, Irish, German immigrants etc.) Everyone back then keenly felt that having the State in a position to also legislate morality was a disaster for all. (The Puritans left because they were more forward thinking than most of their fellows and saw the upcoming 30 Year’s War as a natural outgrowth of states mixing with religions. They “made haste from Babylon” in their memorable phrase.) Properly speaking, this was the only example they had back then. What else but a religion makes overarching moral claims? I believe that the better reading of the First Amendment is “Congress shall pass no law promoting a morality or ethical position.” Prohibition is but an example of why this is wise. The War on Drugs is another good example of moral crusades that turn into a morass.

With the demise of religion, most of the charitable things they did (help the poor, redistribute wealth, sermonize against the evils of alcohol, take care of the sick or elderly etc.) became secular social causes. An emphasis on social justice now means laws are being passed to do churchy things but as long as they are arguably marketed as secular, a narrow reading of the First Amendment says that’s ok.

As for slavery, it has been a universal in every culture everywhere at all times until very, very recently. Nobody “imposed” it initially and it arises spontaneously since if I lack food but pledge my labor to you for a time, I eat. It is still prevalent in places that do not have a service economy. Yes, that is right. The rise of the service economy destroyed slavery. It also destroyed gender roles (women don’t need a man or his family to take care of them if they can just go buy it all at Walmart on the cheap) and a lot of other things we consider bad. It is precisely those places where there is no services-based economy that slavery in various forms flourishes still. That is the bottom line for survival if you have nothing. Were there a massive economic collapse, we’d probably end up with slaves again in all but name within a few decades. Think about that.

I don’t believe for a minute that guns are all that stand between us and slavery. You shouldn’t either. Go get your gun and see how it works against that drone. No, the intent of the American Revolution was twofold to (a) let citizens live their lives and (2) make the government play by its own rules, which for most of US history has admirably been the case. It has been in the last 40 years or so that this has gotten way out of hand. Gun ownership stands as a litmus test now in several ways. One is what side of the progressive or supposedly conservative divide you stand on – that is the least interesting but loudest. The other, actually, is (or should be) some form or registration (almost no gun owners contest this or for that matter screenings) and how will it be used. (Note that the murder rate I gave in 1910 is still lower than today and guns were much, much easier to come by then. There was no gang/drug violence though which accounts for much of the murder rate.)

If gun ownership were treated more like car ownership I doubt there would be much of an issue anywhere. The de facto position of the government is that since some criminals own guns, everyone who owns one is a probable cancer in the body politic. In other words, the people themselves are seen as being a threat to the country. If this is the case, what purpose does the government serve? The question, then, is this: has the government lost the idea that it serves the people? It is this feeling across the political spectrum that fuels most public discourse with finger pointing and blaming falling squarely on ideological lines. That should not be the case. The real political question is, as it has been for 2 centuries of liberty vs. authoritarianism.

Full of shit as always,

– jj[/quote]

I like your view of the First Amendment, but who determines whether or not something violates it? The government.

The “slavery” you speak of sounds more like indentured servitude. I have no doubt that people will voluntarily submit to that if conditions are bad enough. Indentured servitude allows initial competition and freedom of choice in masters, working conditions, terms, etc. By definition, a slave is property-forever, and I don’t believe anyone has ever voluntarily submitted to the loss of all rights(at least not when it’s represented that way). I believe conquered peoples typically have slavery forced on them.

The government can’t use drones to defeat a huge number of its own people. If one group has to kill almost all of another group to win a war, the cost-to-benefit ratio is too high. Wars are fought for control, and if one group is killed off, then that war is pointless. That’s also ignoring the fact that the number of armed folks in this country is far, far greater than the number of military soldiers, politicians, police officers, etc. Adrian Peterson can certainly run over any 10 year old he wants, but if 50 10 year olds decide they are going to tackle him, he’s getting tackled.

The only reason the government doesn’t take our cars(besides the fact that we’re a pretty heavily armed people) is that car ownership poses little danger to It.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/24/newspaper-chain-seeks-to-build-state-by-state-concealed-weapon-databases/[/quote]

One of the reasons I don’t have a CCW permit.

Problem is I’ve had one in the past (20 years ago) and it still shows up when a cop runs my driver’s license.

It’s defacto registration. Pure and simple.[/quote]

Yep, and in that way, gun ownership IS treated like car ownership.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/01/24/newspaper-chain-seeks-to-build-state-by-state-concealed-weapon-databases/[/quote]

One of the reasons I don’t have a CCW permit.

Problem is I’ve had one in the past (20 years ago) and it still shows up when a cop runs my driver’s license.

It’s defacto registration. Pure and simple.[/quote]

The government has a list man, for sure. And I would estimate any firearm that needed paperwork to be purchased, is on that list, and so are the people buying and selling.

Unless you bought all your guns from the truck of a car, and you ammo in cash, you are on a list, the list…

At least this is what I assume to be true, no proof obviously, but I would guess (and do assume) the government is aware of who has what, and where at least 60-70% of the time.

[quote]NickViar wrote:
If one group has to kill almost all of another group to win a war, the cost-to-benefit ratio is too high. Wars are fought for control, and if one group is killed off, then that war is pointless. That’s also ignoring the fact that the number of armed folks in this country is far, far greater than the number of military soldiers, politicians, police officers, etc. [/quote]
A. Read Clausewitz before making assumptions about what winning a war means. Or just read about Genghis Khan. Wars are fought to be won and if that means killing everyone then that means killing everyone. Ever hear of something called genocide?

B. If you think you can count on the average citizen to actually risk his life you might want to get out more. Red Dawn was not reality. Saddam was part of a minority group in Iraq yet he was able to control that nation even though everyone owned an AK. Don’t underestimate a well trained professional army and don’t overestimate a mob of overweight, out of shape citizens who would rather be watching TV.

C. What would really save this nation from being taken over by a politician with military support is the military. We take an oath to defend the Constitution.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
A. Read Clausewitz before making assumptions about what winning a war means. Or just read about Genghis Khan. Wars are fought to be won and if that means killing everyone then that means killing everyone. Ever hear of something called genocide?

B. If you think you can count on the average citizen to actually risk his life you might want to get out more. Red Dawn was not reality. Saddam was part of a minority group in Iraq yet he was able to control that nation even though everyone owned an AK. Don’t underestimate a well trained professional army and don’t overestimate a mob of overweight, out of shape citizens who would rather be watching TV.

C. What would really save this nation from being taken over by a politician with military support is the military. We take an oath to defend the Constitution. [/quote]

A. Why don’t you explain his writings to me?

B. You’ll have to explain this one, because it looks to me like you’re saying, “If you think you can count on average citizens to risk their lives, you might want to get out more. Average citizens need to join a gang comprised of other average citizens to become superheroes.”

C. What would really save this nation from being taken over by a politician with military support is the military who supports that politician? What?

I’m quite sure politicians take an oath to the Constitution, too. I’m quite sure that the Constitution can be amended to say whatever those in charge want it to say. There is nothing on that piece of paper clearly stating that something can’t be amended.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
A. Read Clausewitz before making assumptions about what winning a war means. Or just read about Genghis Khan. Wars are fought to be won and if that means killing everyone then that means killing everyone. Ever hear of something called genocide?

B. If you think you can count on the average citizen to actually risk his life you might want to get out more. Red Dawn was not reality. Saddam was part of a minority group in Iraq yet he was able to control that nation even though everyone owned an AK. Don’t underestimate a well trained professional army and don’t overestimate a mob of overweight, out of shape citizens who would rather be watching TV.

C. What would really save this nation from being taken over by a politician with military support is the military. We take an oath to defend the Constitution. [/quote]

A. Why don’t you explain his writings to me?

B. You’ll have to explain this one, because it looks to me like you’re saying, “If you think you can count on average citizens to risk their lives, you might want to get out more. Average citizens need to join a gang comprised of other average citizens to become superheroes.”

C. What would really save this nation from being taken over by a politician with military support is the military who supports that politician? What?

I’m quite sure politicians take an oath to the Constitution, too. I’m quite sure that the Constitution can be amended to say whatever those in charge want it to say. There is nothing on that piece of paper clearly stating that something can’t be amended.[/quote]
A. I paid college tuition to have a professor assign and teach On War. You won’t get that education from me for free.

B. I’m saying the average person is not going to risk his life to fight professional soldiers. If you think it’s about numbers you would be wrong. If that were the case then any conquest or occupation would require a military force that was the same size as the population it was facing.

C. The last part is wrong. A politician would need military support in order to take over the nation as some dictator but, it’s the military that would keep that from happening. If you think the military is comprised of a bunch of automatons who will blindly support a president you are wrong. The US military is huge with many layers of leadership and made up of a diverse group of Americans. Not even Caesar was able to get the entire Roman military on his side without a civil war.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Opinion: Semi-automatic rifles ‘You say want, I say need’

"Even more concerning is that as a society, we have willingly accepted the premise that we should have to justify exercising our Constitutional rights. Those rights are not granted to us; we are born with them. We do not have to prove we need them; we inherently have them. We are born with them, the Constitution protects them, and it’s the primary function of our government to uphold our Constitution.

But still, we expend a tremendous amount of time and energy justifying our need for the rights protected by the Second Amendment. And every time someone abuses that right, the government threatens to take it away by asking the rest of us to prove, yet again, we still need it."

Read more: Opinion: Semi-automatic rifles “You say want, I say need” | The Daily Caller
[/quote]
I believe in gun rights but to say we were born with those rights implies that guns existed in the Garden of Eden.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Opinion: Semi-automatic rifles ‘You say want, I say need’

"Even more concerning is that as a society, we have willingly accepted the premise that we should have to justify exercising our Constitutional rights. Those rights are not granted to us; we are born with them. We do not have to prove we need them; we inherently have them. We are born with them, the Constitution protects them, and it’s the primary function of our government to uphold our Constitution.

But still, we expend a tremendous amount of time and energy justifying our need for the rights protected by the Second Amendment. And every time someone abuses that right, the government threatens to take it away by asking the rest of us to prove, yet again, we still need it."

Read more: Opinion: Semi-automatic rifles “You say want, I say need” | The Daily Caller
[/quote]
I believe in gun rights but to say we were born with those rights implies that guns existed in the Garden of Eden. [/quote]

Nah… guns are just a means to self defense, which is the right. The right is to protect your life. Guns are a tool to do so.

Just like voting. Voting is just a tool to exercise your right ot choose to be governed and who governs you.

One day, as long as global warming doesn’t melt us all, we’ll invent new ways fo doing both. Our rights won’t change, just the tools used to exercise them.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Nah… guns are just a means to self defense, which is the right. The right is to protect your life. Guns are a tool to do so.

Just like voting. Voting is just a tool to exercise your right ot choose to be governed and who governs you.

One day, as long as global warming doesn’t melt us all, we’ll invent new ways fo doing both. Our rights won’t change, just the tools used to exercise them.
[/quote]

Except you have no legal right to self-defense. Ever. Generally you have to ask the court to accept your plea and if the prosecution agrees you may do so. I teach self-defense rather a lot and this is the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around: The state gets to decided before the trial if your plea is acceptable. (Your lawyer can try arguing it at the subsequent trial but it is much less effective.) Most everyone wants to claim self defense and since everyone thinks the other guy had it coming, most claims never make it too far. Indeed, your lawyer will probably tell you it looks bad to claim it at all (I have friends who make a living trying to explain to lawyers what it is and how to actually pursue it since most lawyers, truth be told, have rarely if ever seen a bona fide case of it. Most self-defense claims run along the lines of “he tried to punch me in the mouth so I hit him in the head with a bat. Repeatedly.” Nope.)

Consider this: In US law a claim of self-defense is affirmative, meaning you must confess to doing what ever the act was (which is normally illegal in other contexts) and only then can you petition for an exemption from prosecution. Translation is that before you even get close to making the claim you have made a full confession. If the prosecution sees an easy conviction from what you say, it’s game over. Even if they let you enter a self-defense plea all they have to do is derail any small part of your claim. It is really easy to get a conviction against someone who claims self-defense. The asian women who chased away that ex with a gun I mentioned did exactly that and cooperated fully with the police thinking they were there to help.

Generally if the prosecution says they will accept your plea, count on them having a trump card to convict you. The state doesn’t care how justified you think you are. They really do think just about everyone but them is probably a criminal and should sit in jail. Only in cases where you were truly helpless and pitiful can you claim to be a victim, but successfully defending yourself against an attacker means they really want to take you down cause you must be a bad person if you know how to do that sort of thing. See, nice people get stuck on escalators when they break…

Gun owners claiming they have a “right to self-defense” is going to make any prosecutor lick his lips.

As always, full of shit…

– jj

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

Gun owners claiming they have a “right to self-defense” is going to make any prosecutor lick his lips.

– jj[/quote]

I’m talking more along the lines of “self defense from a tyrannical government” than “self defense from johnny law breaker looking to boost my wallet.”

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Nah… guns are just a means to self defense, which is the right. The right is to protect your life. Guns are a tool to do so.

Just like voting. Voting is just a tool to exercise your right ot choose to be governed and who governs you.

One day, as long as global warming doesn’t melt us all, we’ll invent new ways fo doing both. Our rights won’t change, just the tools used to exercise them.
[/quote]

Except you have no legal right to self-defense. Ever. Generally you have to ask the court to accept your plea and if the prosecution agrees you may do so. I teach self-defense rather a lot and this is the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around: The state gets to decided before the trial if your plea is acceptable. (Your lawyer can try arguing it at the subsequent trial but it is much less effective.) Most everyone wants to claim self defense and since everyone thinks the other guy had it coming, most claims never make it too far. Indeed, your lawyer will probably tell you it looks bad to claim it at all (I have friends who make a living trying to explain to lawyers what it is and how to actually pursue it since most lawyers, truth be told, have rarely if ever seen a bona fide case of it. Most self-defense claims run along the lines of “he tried to punch me in the mouth so I hit him in the head with a bat. Repeatedly.” Nope.)

Consider this: In US law a claim of self-defense is affirmative, meaning you must confess to doing what ever the act was (which is normally illegal in other contexts) and only then can you petition for an exemption from prosecution. Translation is that before you even get close to making the claim you have made a full confession. If the prosecution sees an easy conviction from what you say, it’s game over. Even if they let you enter a self-defense plea all they have to do is derail any small part of your claim. It is really easy to get a conviction against someone who claims self-defense. The asian women who chased away that ex with a gun I mentioned did exactly that and cooperated fully with the police thinking they were there to help.

Generally if the prosecution says they will accept your plea, count on them having a trump card to convict you. The state doesn’t care how justified you think you are. They really do think just about everyone but them is probably a criminal and should sit in jail. Only in cases where you were truly helpless and pitiful can you claim to be a victim, but successfully defending yourself against an attacker means they really want to take you down cause you must be a bad person if you know how to do that sort of thing. See, nice people get stuck on escalators when they break…

Gun owners claiming they have a “right to self-defense” is going to make any prosecutor lick his lips.

As always, full of shit…

– jj[/quote]

You need to get out of Illinois more. I can guarantee if someone breaks into me house in the middle of the night and I shoot and kill him, no charges will be pressed against me after an investigation is done. Wyoming respects the Constitution and the rights it protects.

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Nah… guns are just a means to self defense, which is the right. The right is to protect your life. Guns are a tool to do so.

Just like voting. Voting is just a tool to exercise your right ot choose to be governed and who governs you.

One day, as long as global warming doesn’t melt us all, we’ll invent new ways fo doing both. Our rights won’t change, just the tools used to exercise them.
[/quote]

Except you have no legal right to self-defense. Ever. Generally you have to ask the court to accept your plea and if the prosecution agrees you may do so. I teach self-defense rather a lot and this is the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around: The state gets to decided before the trial if your plea is acceptable. (Your lawyer can try arguing it at the subsequent trial but it is much less effective.) Most everyone wants to claim self defense and since everyone thinks the other guy had it coming, most claims never make it too far. Indeed, your lawyer will probably tell you it looks bad to claim it at all (I have friends who make a living trying to explain to lawyers what it is and how to actually pursue it since most lawyers, truth be told, have rarely if ever seen a bona fide case of it. Most self-defense claims run along the lines of “he tried to punch me in the mouth so I hit him in the head with a bat. Repeatedly.” Nope.)

Consider this: In US law a claim of self-defense is affirmative, meaning you must confess to doing what ever the act was (which is normally illegal in other contexts) and only then can you petition for an exemption from prosecution. Translation is that before you even get close to making the claim you have made a full confession. If the prosecution sees an easy conviction from what you say, it’s game over. Even if they let you enter a self-defense plea all they have to do is derail any small part of your claim. It is really easy to get a conviction against someone who claims self-defense. The asian women who chased away that ex with a gun I mentioned did exactly that and cooperated fully with the police thinking they were there to help.

Generally if the prosecution says they will accept your plea, count on them having a trump card to convict you. The state doesn’t care how justified you think you are. They really do think just about everyone but them is probably a criminal and should sit in jail. Only in cases where you were truly helpless and pitiful can you claim to be a victim, but successfully defending yourself against an attacker means they really want to take you down cause you must be a bad person if you know how to do that sort of thing. See, nice people get stuck on escalators when they break…

Gun owners claiming they have a “right to self-defense” is going to make any prosecutor lick his lips.

As always, full of shit…

– jj[/quote]

This is all goes back to people abusing their rights, then using it as justification to take them away.

JJ,

I think you’re being a bit unreasonable. You have a right to defend yourself, especially if someone is trying to take you off the map, and even more so if you are not the aggressor.

Also, anyone looking to plead would also ensure that no further charges be filed, a cap so you don’t get back-doored by something else down the line, and multiple sentences to be run concurrent. If your lawyer doesn’t include that, find another lawyer.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
JJ,

I think you’re being a bit unreasonable. You have a right to defend yourself, especially if someone is trying to take you off the map, and even more so if you are not the aggressor.

Also, anyone looking to plead would also ensure that no further charges be filed, a cap so you don’t get back-doored by something else down the line, and multiple sentences to be run concurrent. If your lawyer doesn’t include that, find another lawyer.
[/quote]

Hang on, I’m not saying don’t defend yourself, I’m saying that the public perception that it is an inalienable right is at odds with the legal system. Sure you can claim it and win it but in practice that seldom actually works. Only the state can file criminal charges and they make that decision, not your lawyer. Your lawyer can talk to the DA and try to cap it, but if they decide they don’t like you then you will have to deal with it. Again, the locus of control is not on you as the person exercising some right of self-defense.

When you get in front of a judge the assumption is that it is “two citizens in dispute” (his side vs. yours) and you have no a priori exceptional claim you may invoke. (And if he wanted to beat you up in the first place, count on him lying non-stop. Being fair, the DA will assume you are lying too.) So, first off realize you will have to make a really good argument if you whack that guy upside the head, no matter how much he deserves it and be prepared to deal with a lot of lawyering after a certain point. More to the point, the first statements you make to the police will probably determine whether you have a ghost of a chance with a self-defense plea no matter what the situation looks like. Best quote from a lawyer friend about how the DA thinks: “If someone gets hurt (or dies), someone has to go to jail.” So if you hurt the other guy, they are automatically going to be looking at your doing time, unless there is an obvious, huge extenuating circumstance.

Remember that I teach martial arts and have for years. So one case that happens with us is this: The bad guy tries to do something seriously wicked, you drop him in his tracks and since you weren’t hurt, you had to be the aggressor and almost nothing you say will convince the police or DA otherwise. The fact you studied a martial art means you were itching for a fight all along. I have seen this happen at least a few times and it is not pretty nor is it fair. The case is completely different if the defender is a woman, since then she is just “being strong and can take care of herself.”

Want a real life case? One of my teachers relates how there was a kid, probably 17 at his school doing competitive judo – really good at it and since he was from the projects this was all he did after school. One night after class he (call him the judoka) walks out with his gym bag, some guy pulls a knife and asks for his money. Judoka says no, so the guy tries to stab him but stabs the bag instead. The judoka grabs his arm and slams him with a throw (full power ippon seoi nage from a serious competitive judo player on pavement, ouch). The guy gets all kinds of broken up (broken knee, elbow, ribs, concussion – head injury ups the possible charges, btw). Cops show up and the judoka tells them how he whipped that Mofo’s ass big time. This would be good after winning a bout over beers, but what the cops saw was him over-reacting to the threat. Got charged with attempted manslaughter and served at least a couple of years. Pretty sad since by all accounts he was a really nice poor kid who found something he was finally good at. That first statement to the police damned him and there is no retracting it either. This was one technique against attempted murder. If that doesn’t count for self-defense automatically, nothing does.

And yes, in many states (mostly out West) the legal system is much more forgiving. Problem with Illinois is we have Chicago so every stupid felon on the planet has tried to get that Darwin Award which results in some truly idiotic laws and their application. No question about that. I’m thinking of moving to Colorado or thereabouts because of it.

– jj