Gun Control III

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
The fuck she was handed a mini Uzi for is beyond me, but that said a good instructor could hand a mini to 1000 kids that age and have zero “accidents”. Fuck. [/quote]

But is it still a good idea to have 9 year old girls handle a weapon that can go fully automatic?

I’m sure she could have handled a simple, low-caliber handgun or a .22 rifle.

See, I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that most the gun issues in the U.S. comes from the fact that everyone disrespects the gun. The hardcore NRA folks are all “Oh, guns are PERFECTLY safe!” while the hardcore anti-gun folks are all “OMG GUNS ARE EVIL”

And you have people who actually respect guns, having been around them all their life and having literally seen what big bullets can do to big fucking animals like deer with a single shot, shaking their heads.

What I don’t get is, why do the responsible gun owners let the narrative be stolen from them by the hardcore NRA? I know that this is more an issue with the media, but you’d think there would be a bit more of a response from the responsible folks. It feels like the NRA’s message is getting more and more radicalized because they think the opposite camp is winning.[/quote]

Have you ever actually read anything put out by the NRA? Or are you reading what others are writing about the NRA? Can you give a specific example of an argument that the NRA is advancing that is, to use your words, unreasonably “hardcore” or “radicalized”?

The NRA is, first and foremost, a firearms safety and education organization. So it is rather disingenuous to claim that they say “Guns are PERFECTLY safe” when an entire arm of the organization is dedicated to avoiding the very obvious dangers they present. You are just advancing a straw man argument because nobody is saying that guns are perfectly safe, least of all the NRA.
[/quote]

All the NRA shit I ever get is one of three things:

  1. The damn rules
  2. so-and-so politician rates this
  3. We did X in Y state, so give me money

[quote]magick wrote:
See, I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that most the gun issues in the U.S. comes from the fact that everyone disrespects the gun. The hardcore NRA folks are all “Oh, guns are PERFECTLY safe!” while the hardcore anti-gun folks are all “OMG GUNS ARE EVIL”

And you have people who actually respect guns, having been around them all their life and having literally seen what big bullets can do to big fucking animals like deer with a single shot, shaking their heads.

What I don’t get is, why do the responsible gun owners let the narrative be stolen from them by the hardcore NRA? I know that this is more an issue with the media, but you’d think there would be a bit more of a response from the responsible folks. It feels like the NRA’s message is getting more and more radicalized because they think the opposite camp is winning.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, what part of the NRA’s message is radical?? As twojar said, they obviously are aware of the dangers present from the misuse of guns.
However, saying guns are perfectly safe is not incorrect. They are perfectly safe when used appropriately. Chainsaws, hammers, and kitchen knives fall in that same category. The main issue is the radical anti-gun folks somehow credit this particular inanimate object with magical powers that cause us to use the tool for something other than its intended purpose. They do not want to accept that gun violence has zero to do with guns and 100% to do with the individual using them. That is why Japan has lower crime rates than us, not because they don’t have guns.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Have you ever actually read anything put out by the NRA? Or are you reading what others are writing about the NRA?[/quote]

What others are writing about the NRA, obviously.

I am a “liberal” after all =P

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Can you give a specific example of an argument that the NRA is advancing that is, to use your words, unreasonably “hardcore” or “radicalized”?[/quote]

Of course I can’t! I just write what I feel! And if someone disagrees with me I’m supposed to say things about how you’re wrong without giving actual examples or some such.

Well, either that or just go away.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
The NRA is, first and foremost, a firearms safety and education organization. So it is rather disingenuous to claim that they say “Guns are PERFECTLY safe” when an entire arm of the organization is dedicated to avoiding the very obvious dangers they present. You are just advancing a straw man argument because nobody is saying that guns are perfectly safe, least of all the NRA.
[/quote]

You lie!

Btw, this sort of fits my point- I am willing to believe that the NRA is mostly about gun education and safety. The point is, I never heard this once on any media.

See. I know nothing about the NRA except what I heard on random media. Based on this, I come to a conclusion that people who (I assume) know more about the NRA than I do disagree strongly with.

So… either the NRA has allowed its narrative to be stolen by the opposition, or it never bothered to release a narrative to begin with.

How exactly do you plan on changing minds when you don’t even bother attempting it?

I currently live in CA. Afaik, which has one of the more restrictive gun-laws in the country. You’d think the NRA would be spending a lot of time trying to actually educate people here about proper gun use and how guns actually aren’t as scary as people claim they are.

And, no, I do not think encouraging people to walk into random stores with your fire-arm on display is a good way to change people’s mind for the better.

[quote]magick wrote:
See. I know nothing about the NRA except what I heard on random media. Based on this, I come to a conclusion that people who (I assume) know more about the NRA than I do disagree strongly with.

So… either the NRA has allowed its narrative to be stolen by the opposition, or it never bothered to release a narrative to begin with.
[/quote]

I know right. This one time I heard on the radio that Obama is a African born Muslim Al Qaeda sleeper cell agent. God damn, it was on the radio so it must be true or he never releases his birth certificate to begin with :slight_smile:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Have you ever actually read anything put out by the NRA? Or are you reading what others are writing about the NRA?[/quote]

What others are writing about the NRA, obviously.

I am a “liberal” after all =P

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Can you give a specific example of an argument that the NRA is advancing that is, to use your words, unreasonably “hardcore” or “radicalized”?[/quote]

Of course I can’t! I just write what I feel! And if someone disagrees with me I’m supposed to say things about how you’re wrong without giving actual examples or some such.

Well, either that or just go away.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
The NRA is, first and foremost, a firearms safety and education organization. So it is rather disingenuous to claim that they say “Guns are PERFECTLY safe” when an entire arm of the organization is dedicated to avoiding the very obvious dangers they present. You are just advancing a straw man argument because nobody is saying that guns are perfectly safe, least of all the NRA.
[/quote]

You lie!

Btw, this sort of fits my point- I am willing to believe that the NRA is mostly about gun education and safety. The point is, I never heard this once on any media.

See. I know nothing about the NRA except what I heard on random media. Based on this, I come to a conclusion that people who (I assume) know more about the NRA than I do disagree strongly with.

So… either the NRA has allowed its narrative to be stolen by the opposition, or it never bothered to release a narrative to begin with.

How exactly do you plan on changing minds when you don’t even bother attempting it?

I currently live in CA. Afaik, which has one of the more restrictive gun-laws in the country. You’d think the NRA would be spending a lot of time trying to actually educate people here about proper gun use and how guns actually aren’t as scary as people claim they are.

And, no, I do not think encouraging people to walk into random stores with your fire-arm on display is a good way to change people’s mind for the better.[/quote]

Sorry, but your post just confirms what I suspected from the get-go. You are allowing other people’s thoughts on the NRA to shape your own, rather than reading what the NRA is actually advocating and evaluating it from there.

Here, I’ll give you a leg up on that.

http://www.nraila.org/

You did not provide a specific example of an NRA position that you find radicalized. You just speak in very broad generalities without ever really making a compelling point. You mentioned open carry rallies, but I’m guessing you don’t know that the NRA issued a statement opposing a recent open carry rally, for which they received some heat from open carry supporters.

Look, you’re perfectly entitled to think whatever you want about gun owners, the NRA and folks on the other side. We all are. Just don’t kid yourself into thinking you are remotely well-informed about the topic.

[quote]magick wrote:

So… either the NRA has allowed its narrative to be stolen by the opposition, or it never bothered to release a narrative to begin with.[/quote]

When you are fighting the whole of mass media and every politician looking to score a cheap vote from the ignorant, its a waste of time.

It’s a waste of time anyway, but we’ll get to that.

Because we don’t have to change anyone’s mind. We rights in this country, so there is zero need to change minds.

And, aside, the NRA rating on politicians do, in fact, seriously effect a politico’s ability to get elected, because those of us who follow the NRA are the force of the NRA.

You see, when you hear “the NRA stifled gun control” in the media what that means in real life is “Gun owners called, emailed and faxed politicians and told them they will lose if they pass gun control.” All the NRA does is tell us what shit they are trying to shove at us and we respond.

Votes matter, and gun owners vote.

Yeah, you guys have rolled over and been fucked pretty badly because of it. I live in MA which is also an anti civil rights state but we aren’t as bad as your shit hole and just defeated a bunch of shit still not as bad as the unarmed tyranny you live under.

Why? No offense, but fuck you guys. Elections have consequences, that shit is on you. I’m fine with the NRA ignoring lost cause states and focusing on keeping free states free so I can escape to them.

For MA gun control, the last bill we (the electorate, with our cell phones, emails, and phone calls) turned a massive shit pile like you, NY & Ct got into a half win, with the potential to blow the doors off the whole thing in court.

Again, you’re focused on what MSNBC, CNN & ABC tell you to be focused on. What about the 100m people that went to the range last weekend and safely shot for an hour, cleaned up, went home and banged their spouse?

Gun culture is pretty chill man. You should open your heart and mind up and check it out.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Have you ever actually read anything put out by the NRA? Or are you reading what others are writing about the NRA?[/quote]

What others are writing about the NRA, obviously.

I am a “liberal” after all =P

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Can you give a specific example of an argument that the NRA is advancing that is, to use your words, unreasonably “hardcore” or “radicalized”?[/quote]

Of course I can’t! I just write what I feel! And if someone disagrees with me I’m supposed to say things about how you’re wrong without giving actual examples or some such.

Well, either that or just go away.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
The NRA is, first and foremost, a firearms safety and education organization. So it is rather disingenuous to claim that they say “Guns are PERFECTLY safe” when an entire arm of the organization is dedicated to avoiding the very obvious dangers they present. You are just advancing a straw man argument because nobody is saying that guns are perfectly safe, least of all the NRA.
[/quote]

You lie!

Btw, this sort of fits my point- I am willing to believe that the NRA is mostly about gun education and safety. The point is, I never heard this once on any media.

See. I know nothing about the NRA except what I heard on random media. Based on this, I come to a conclusion that people who (I assume) know more about the NRA than I do disagree strongly with.

So… either the NRA has allowed its narrative to be stolen by the opposition, or it never bothered to release a narrative to begin with.

How exactly do you plan on changing minds when you don’t even bother attempting it?

I currently live in CA. Afaik, which has one of the more restrictive gun-laws in the country. You’d think the NRA would be spending a lot of time trying to actually educate people here about proper gun use and how guns actually aren’t as scary as people claim they are.

And, no, I do not think encouraging people to walk into random stores with your fire-arm on display is a good way to change people’s mind for the better.[/quote]

Dude, there are more fucking guns here than there are soy lattes.

Oh and those same pussies in the legislature just banned plastic bags statewide. So enjoy the upcoming E. Coli stories bound to come out.

The noise against gun is a small and loud minority. Notice how they didn’t put the gun laws on the ballot ? They know the public will vote them down, because there is an intrinsic desire to protect one’s self.

In what universe is giving a 9 year old kid an Uzi not the worst idea in the world.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Sorry, but your post just confirms what I suspected from the get-go. You are allowing other people’s thoughts on the NRA to shape your own, rather than reading what the NRA is actually advocating and evaluating it from there.[/quote]

Ok, I’m being serious here.

Can you tell me which part of my post failed? Because I clearly failed on trying to convey an ironic tone, and I’ve been trying to practice it.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Look, you’re perfectly entitled to think whatever you want about gun owners, the NRA and folks on the other side. We all are. Just don’t kid yourself into thinking you are remotely well-informed about the topic.[/quote]

[quote]magick wrote:
See. I know nothing about the NRA except what I heard on random media. Based on this, I come to a conclusion that people who (I assume) know more about the NRA than I do disagree strongly with.[/quote]

Or…I suppose it could just be that you didn’t bother to read my post.

I’m sorry, I am rather touchy with people who don’t bother to read posts. One of my actual pet peeves.

[quote=CountingBeans]
Because we don’t have to change anyone’s mind. We rights in this country, so there is zero need to change minds.

And, aside, the NRA rating on politicians do, in fact, seriously effect a politico’s ability to get elected, because those of us who follow the NRA are the force of the NRA.

You see, when you hear “the NRA stifled gun control” in the media what that means in real life is “Gun owners called, emailed and faxed politicians and told them they will lose if they pass gun control.” All the NRA does is tell us what shit they are trying to shove at us and we respond.

Votes matter, and gun owners vote.[/quote]

I never meant to convey that the NRA, and pro-gun people in general, don’t wield their political power effectively.

I just don’t think it’s necessarily a good idea to say “Well, we get what we want anyways, so let’s ignore everyone who disagrees with us”.

All it does is split people even more.

[quote=CountingBeans]
Again, you’re focused on what MSNBC, CNN & ABC tell you to be focused on. What about the 100m people that went to the range last weekend and safely shot for an hour, cleaned up, went home and banged their spouse?

Gun culture is pretty chill man. You should open your heart and mind up and check it out. [/quote]

That’s exactly the point!

Why not emphasize the fucking fact that millions of people in the U.S. own guns and use them responsibly?

Propaganda! Advertisement! Stuff!

Again, I understand your point about the possible futility of fighting the liberal media. But why not try anyways?

Because it’s a waste of time and effort? Well, at this rate you’re going to get states so freaking isolated from one another that “one country” doesn’t really apply.

[quote=MaximusB]
Dude, there are more fucking guns here than there are soy lattes.[/quote]

Really?

[quote=MaximusB]
The noise against gun is a small and loud minority. Notice how they didn’t put the gun laws on the ballot ? They know the public will vote them down,[/quote]

Hrm. True.

[quote]PJS2010 wrote:
In what universe is giving a 9 year old kid an Uzi not the worst idea in the world.[/quote]
It is definitely a stupid fucking idea.

[quote]magick wrote:

Or…I suppose it could just be that you didn’t bother to read my post.

I’m sorry, I am rather touchy with people who don’t bother to read posts. One of my actual pet peeves.[/quote]

Did you edit your post? Because I recall replying to a shorter post with less substance.

[quote]magick wrote:
I just don’t think it’s necessarily a good idea to say “Well, we get what we want anyways, so let’s ignore everyone who disagrees with us”.[/quote]

Sure, you’re right, but it’s like trying to talk football with people who have only ever watched hockey.

It gets to the point the ignorance about guns some of the loudest voices against them have is just too much to even address.

Kids that smoke weed think guns bans would work.

People would ban the “modern sporting rifle” version of the MINI14 but not the one with wood stocks.

People think because the name starts with AK it is extra killy and born in the blood of children.

People think their hunting rifle isn’t a weapon but an AR is.

People think AR stands for assault rifle.

It just gets old, real fast man. Like trying to argue with someone that thinks they can spot reduce fat, muscle turns to fat or that anyone who likes to shoot has a small penis.

All it does is split people even more.

[quote]

[quote]

Gun culture is pretty chill man. You should open your heart and mind up and check it out. [/quote]

That’s exactly the point!

Why not emphasize the fucking fact that millions of people in the U.S. own guns and use them responsibly?

Propaganda! Advertisement! Stuff!

Again, I understand your point about the possible futility of fighting the liberal media. But why not try anyways? [/quote]

Lol, we do. That’s how effective it is.

Well, mainly its because we’d rather people just leave us the hell alone. We didn’t do anything wrong. Why should I have to defend myself if I did nothing wrong.

Black dude in Washington robs a store. Do black people in Vermont have to justify their innocence? White dude is a serial killer in California. Do white people in Arizona have to justify their innocence to the masses?

We shouldn’t need propaganda to be treated like regular people.

[quote]magick wrote:

Why not emphasize the fucking fact that millions of people in the U.S. own guns and use them responsibly?

Propaganda! Advertisement! Stuff!

[/quote]

Another point about this:

The only way to effectively do this is to take people to the range, and let them actually experience what they think they are experts on already.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

Or…I suppose it could just be that you didn’t bother to read my post.

I’m sorry, I am rather touchy with people who don’t bother to read posts. One of my actual pet peeves.[/quote]

Did you edit your post? Because I recall replying to a shorter post with less substance.
[/quote]

If I had, you could tell by the difference between the quote you have and my current post.

That’s why I quote things. To immortalize them so that people can’t backtrack.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

Or…I suppose it could just be that you didn’t bother to read my post.

I’m sorry, I am rather touchy with people who don’t bother to read posts. One of my actual pet peeves.[/quote]

Did you edit your post? Because I recall replying to a shorter post with less substance.
[/quote]

If I had, you could tell by the difference between the quote you have and my current post.

That’s why I quote things. To immortalize them so that people can’t backtrack.
[/quote]

Hmmmm… Yes I see your full post right in the quote. I asked because I thought I may have hit the quote button after you did an edit but before I refreshed my screen, making the system grab your edited post that I had not yet read.

I’m usually quite adept at reading words in front of my face. Perhaps my cognitive processes are failing me in my old age.

Anyway, let’s get back to gun control.

[quote]magick wrote:
Well, at this rate you’re going to get states so freaking isolated from one another that “one country” doesn’t really apply.

[/quote]

Maybe. But we will have the guns so who do you think gets to make the rules then. Just sayin…

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Well, at this rate you’re going to get states so freaking isolated from one another that “one country” doesn’t really apply.
[/quote]

Maybe. But we will have the guns so who do you think gets to make the rules then. Just sayin…[/quote]

LOL

You win.

Seriously you have me in stitches right now.

Bump this thread so I can share this wonderful account of community policing.

From Vaughn v. City of Chicago (N.D. Ill. Aug. 5, 2014), the alleged facts:

On April 5, 2008, around 11:00 pm, Albert Vaughn, Jr. ? was in the vicinity of 7033 South Throop Street in Chicago, Illinois when an altercation between two groups started in the street. Vaughn left the area before the four police officers who are named as defendants in this suit arrived at the scene.

While the police officers stood between the two groups trying to disperse the crowd, Vaughn returned to the scene in search of his younger brother. Vaughn was carrying a stick to protect himself and joined one of the groups. Upon noticing Vaughn, Officer Robert Cummings drew his gun and pointed it at Vaughn. Meanwhile, the other officer defendants ordered Vaughn to drop the stick. Vaughn complied.

When a man in the opposing group began yelling obscenities at Vaughn, he picked up the stick he had brought to the scene for self-protection. The officer defendants, who were standing within a few feet of Vaughn, once again ordered him to drop the stick. Vaughn complied.

The man who had been shouting obscenities at Vaughn then made his way through the crowd carrying a metal baseball bat. The defendant officers did not order the man to halt or drop the bat as he approached Vaughn. Instead, the officers simply watched as the man clubbed Vaughn in the head with the bat and then fled from the scene. Vaughn was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead.

Vaughn?s father filed the present suit in his capacity as the administrator of his son?s estate.

Lots of legalese to follow:

?As a general matter ? a State?s failure to protect an individual against private violence simply does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause.? DeShaney v. Winnebago County Dep?t of Social Servs., 489 U.S. 189, 197 (1989). ?DeShaney, however, [left] the door open for liability in situations where the state creates a dangerous situation or renders citizens more vulnerable to danger.? The so-called ?state-created danger? doctrine has three elements:

? ?When courts speak of the state?s ?increasing? the danger of private violence, they mean the state did something that turned a potential danger into an actual one, rather than that it just stood by and did nothing to prevent private violence.?

First, in order for the Due Process Clause to impose upon a state the duty to protect its citizens, the state, by its affirmative acts, must create or increase a danger faced by an individual.

Second, the failure on the part of the state to protect an individual from such a danger must be the proximate cause of the injury to the individual.

Third, because the right to protection against state-created dangers is derived from the substantive component of the Due Process Clause, the stateâ??s failure to protect the individual must shock the conscience.

Here, the complaint alleges that Defendants increased the danger facing Vaughn by ordering him, at gunpoint, to drop the stick he was carrying for self-protection. Defendants emphasize that they did not start the street altercation, force Vaughn to return to the scene, or place Vaughnâ??s assailant in the rival group. Defendantsâ?? attempt to portray themselves as passive observers cannot be squared with the complaint, which plainly alleges that Defendants ordered Vaughn to drop his chosen means of self-protection during a heated altercation.

Defendants stress that Vaughn faced substantial danger â?? namely, the risk that a member of the rival group would attack him â?? with or without a stick in his hand. This argument falsely assumes that the state-created danger doctrine applies only when state actors turn a safe situation into a dangerous one. In fact, the doctrine also protects individuals against marginal increases in risk â?? i.e., placing someone who already faces danger in even greater peril.

At the motion to dismiss stage, Defendants are not entitled to the inference that their actions left Vaughn no worse off than when he returned to the scene with a stick in hand. It is plausible that Vaughn was safer with a stick in his hand than he was after Defendants ordered him to drop it. In simple terms, Defendants made Vaughn an easier target for would-be assailants in the rival group than he otherwise would have been. This marginal increase in risk is sufficient to state a plausible state-created danger claim.

Defendants also argue that even if they exposed Vaughn to an increased risk of private violence, they did not render him completely defenseless. After all, Defendants contend, Vaughn could have walked away from the scene after they ordered him to drop his stick. This argument resembles an assumption of risk defense that Vaughn need not overcome at the pleading stage. Moreover, the Seventh Circuit has held that â??a state can be held to have violated due process by placing a person in a position of heightened danger without cutting off other avenues of aid.â?? â?¦

In sum, the complaint plausibly alleges that Defendants placed Vaughn in a position of increased danger, thereby triggering a duty to protect him from private violenceâ?¦.

The second element of a state-created danger claim is proximate causation. Defendants assert in conclusory fashion that ordering Vaughn to drop his stick and watching someone attack him with a baseball bat were not the proximate cause of his injuries. This argument is underdeveloped and therefore waived.

The â??shocks the conscienceâ?? element of a state-created danger claim â??is a reminder that liability for a constitutional tort requires proof that the defendant acted (or failed to act) not merely negligently but recklessly (equivalently, with deliberate indifference to the risk of harm that he was creating).â?? â?¦ â??The cases generally understand â??recklessnessâ?? to mean knowledge of a serious risk to another person, coupled with failure to avert the risk though it could easily have been averted.â??

Accepting the complaint as true, Defendants were recklessly indifferent to Vaughnâ??s safety. This is not a case where state actors were at worst negligent in protecting an individual from state-created dangers. The combination of ordering Vaughn to drop a stick he intended to use for self-protection and then watching â?? at a distance of only a few feet â?? while someone beat him to death with a baseball bat shows a reckless disregard for his life that shocks the conscienceâ?¦.

[Footnote: I take no position on the parties’ side debate over whether Vaughn had a clearly established Second Amendment right to possess a stick for self-defense during a street altercation.]

[A]n individual has clearly established rights not be stranded â?¦ or trapped â?¦ in dangerous situations that state actors either created or made more perilous. Plaintiffâ??s claim falls within this clearly established line of cases. Defendants stranded Vaughn in a dangerous situation by ordering him to drop the object he intended to use for self-protection and simply watching while he was bludgeoned to death. The same police actions placed Vaughn in a trap of sorts by making him an easy target for the man who killed him. In short, Defendants are not entitled to dismissal on qualified immunity grounds because Plaintiffâ??s claim is based on clearly established due process rightsâ?¦