Guaranteed Cure for Racism

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Pwrbldr4life wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Both seem shackled to their religious identity. Dismiss the labels and the prejudice served by such and you can speak as intelligent men. The different sects of the Christian religion discourage further investigation by those of who are lost or in doubt, when they cannot agree amongst themselves.
[/quote]

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. I’m all for ecumenical efforts, but I have no clue what you just said.

And, for the moment I’ll reserve my thoughts on prejudice.[/quote]

Fair enough. I understand the punitive nature of your reply and the fact my presence in these threads has yet to establish myself as anything more than an empty opinion.

Edit - I jumped into a thread without reading it entirely and projected a comment from a single post. I admit fault in that.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< We’ll be here respecting your freedom of conscience and waiting for you to come home to the Bride of Christ.[/quote]A total contradiction Chris. I have no nor do I desire any freedom of conscience precisely because I am the bride of Christ. I’m a bondslave of the Lord and a slave to righteousness. THAT ALONE IS FREEDOM. Thomas continues to deceive.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< you go on about having some girl dressing nice for once and a drunk sobering up >>>[/quote]I had to really pray about this one Chris because I don’t want to handle it wrong, nor do I want it to go to waste. Where you see “some girl dressing nice for once and a drunk sobering up” I see a coupla lost dead hopeless creatures made in the image of God, raised together with the exalted risen King of all Kings and Lord of all Lords in heavenly places to the praise of His glorious grace. Thats’s the core difference between the gospel and catholicISM.

Oh you’ll no doubt jump in now and clarify about how “yes, of course all that too”, but you have displayed the necrotic (that one is just for you =] ) intuitive fruit of Rome perfectly already. It ain’t jist you guys. I see it all the time. I have higher hopes for you my dear friend. If you only really knew. Also, I didn’t forget your PM.

[quote]TEMPLAR wrote:
This is a joke right? As long as there are different races there will be racism.[/quote]

It’s true. Man does not hate each other for being a certain color. Humans hate each other out of hatred for themselves. Color is an excuse.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< We’ll be here respecting your freedom of conscience and waiting for you to come home to the Bride of Christ.[/quote]A total contradiction Chris. I have no nor do I desire any freedom of conscience precisely because I am the bride of Christ. I’m a bondslave of the Lord and a slave to righteousness. THAT ALONE IS FREEDOM. Thomas continues to deceive.
[/quote]

Yeah, you maybe a slave, but the Lord still does not force. He loves, he gives you the choice.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< you go on about having some girl dressing nice for once and a drunk sobering up >>>[/quote]I had to really pray about this one Chris because I don’t want to handle it wrong, nor do I want it to go to waste. Where you see “some girl dressing nice for once and a drunk sobering up” I see a coupla lost dead hopeless creatures made in the image of God, raised together with the exalted risen King of all Kings and Lord of all Lords in heavenly places to the praise of His glorious grace. Thats’s the core difference between the gospel and catholicISM.

Oh you’ll no doubt jump in now and clarify about how “yes, of course all that too”, but you have displayed the necrotic (that one is just for you =] ) intuitive fruit of Rome perfectly already. It ain’t jist you guys. I see it all the time. I have higher hopes for you my dear friend. If you only really knew. Also, I didn’t forget your PM.
[/quote]

So basically, you have converts and it’s the Lord, and we have converts and it’s filthy rags…same thing, different reason…because it’s not you. Very interesting.

[quote]Pwrbldr4life wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Pwrbldr4life wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Both seem shackled to their religious identity. Dismiss the labels and the prejudice served by such and you can speak as intelligent men. The different sects of the Christian religion discourage further investigation by those of who are lost or in doubt, when they cannot agree amongst themselves.
[/quote]

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. I’m all for ecumenical efforts, but I have no clue what you just said.

And, for the moment I’ll reserve my thoughts on prejudice.[/quote]

Fair enough. I understand the punitive nature of your reply and the fact my presence in these threads has yet to establish myself as anything more than an empty opinion.

Edit - I jumped into a thread without reading it entirely and projected a comment from a single post. I admit fault in that.[/quote]

I take arguments by there merit, continue.

For anybody interested, this was my black pastor’s sermon this morning which dealt incidentally with, of all things racism. Right between the eyes with 00 magnum buckshot. THIS IS the cure. Stream or download (link below)
http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/index.php/topic,244.new.html#new
EDIT:oops, had to update the link to my server

Just got back. http://www.freep.com/article/20110416/NEWS01/110416005/Detroit-Prayer-Walk-draws-thousands-downtown-proclaim-faith-Jesus-Christ-can-help-city?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE Absolutely the most glorious thing I have ever been a part of. I’m told I got some time on the big stage screen during praise and worship. I’m also told I had my eyes closed which explains why I didn’t see it which is probably for the best =]

The entire 1.6 miles of Woodward (6 lanes) from Comerica Park to the Spirit of Detroit The Spirit of Detroit - Wikipedia was packed with believers in both directions. Singing, praying, sometimes with onlookers or even police. That statue was commissioned in 1955 to capture what had made the motor city great. The glory of God in the upper hand and a family consisting of a man, a woman and a child in the lower hand. The inscription quotes 2nd Corinthians 3:17 “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”. Our enemy went straight to work through relentless attacks on both the family and the glory of God which are directly analogous of one another. He’s had great success working through the Christ denying pagans of this nation and city. By 1970 the city was on a greased slide into the jaws of hell. It’s almost literally a 3rd world warzone now.

The saints which are at Detroit will fight the good fight covered in the full armor of God until this decaying corpse of a great city once renowned for what it built, is resurrected and shining forth the healing, reconciling transforming power of the King of kings.

Tiribulus, don’t you think the fact that, as you admit your own is, churches in America are almost completely segregated is an indication that people don’t want racial diversity? In other words, in the most private aspect of their lives, people don’t value diversity.

What I’m trying to say, is that racism is an inevitable part of human nature. Biology runs deeper than scripture. That said, I do in fact think that religion can be used to bring people together that otherwise would have had conflicts. I just don’t think it can bring the races together. Religion is just a leash, it just controls (or “guides”) aspects of peoples’ behavior. It, by itself, cannot change that basic nature. I think that’s what we’re grappling with here, basic human nature.

Why try to build a society on the assumption that racism must be cured? I think we have to question that original assumption, that this is something that must be valued by all. Why submit nations to an unnecessary, and possibly dangerous, test like a multiracial society poses? I mean, you wouldn’t even have to desperately search for a “cure” for racism in mono-racial society. In any event, I hope you don’t cast me off as a bigot here, as I know some might.

@Dabba:
This appears at least to be a thoughtful and honest post. I have chest, tri’s and shoulders now so I can’t answer, but I will. SIGH. I don’t know how I’m supposed to answer everybody

I eagerly await your reply, Tiribulus.

As soon as I can. Hopefully later tonight.

[quote]Dabba wrote:Tiribulus, don’t you think the fact that, as you admit your own is, churches in America are almost completely segregated is an indication that people don’t want racial diversity? In other words, in the most private aspect of their lives, people don’t value diversity. >>>[/quote]True Christians in which dwell the Spirit of the living God value HIS glory above all else and His glory is dimmed and even hidden where racism is allowed ascendancy. ALL men (including the girls) are created in His image and likeness and it has nothing to do with their skin. Nothing. A definition of racism is probably in order here actually. Racism as I am treating it is the viewing of the quality of a person’s dignity, morality, intrinsic worth, general character or any combination therein, good or bad or both, as a function of the anthropological strain from which they descend.[quote]Dabba wrote:<<< What I’m trying to say, is that racism is an inevitable part of human nature. Biology runs deeper than scripture. That said, I do in fact think that religion can be used to bring people together that otherwise would have had conflicts. I just don’t think it can bring the races together. Religion is just a leash, it just controls (or “guides”) aspects of peoples’ behavior. It, by itself, cannot change that basic nature. I think that’s what we’re grappling with here, basic human nature. >>>[/quote]“Religion” IS indeed as you describe it. The gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ means being raised from true spiritual death unto new life in His very resurrection. It does change the basic nature. NOTHING runs deeper than scripture. If you came to my church with me just one time you would walk out believing that racism had definitely been defeated in the people there and genuinely to the core of our being. As a couple examples, just today one of the old timers who has been around long enough to know what it’s like to be forced to the back of the bus grabbed me around the neck from behind and kissed me on the head. “God bless ya man, always great to see ya”. Some of the kids think I’m their uncle. They come runnin up hangin on my legs jumpin up n down LOL! Not just me either, I mean that’s just how it is with us. [quote]Dabba wrote:<<< Why try to build a society on the assumption that racism must be cured? I think we have to question that original assumption, that this is something that must be valued by all. Why submit nations to an unnecessary, and possibly dangerous, test like a multiracial society poses? I mean, you wouldn’t even have to desperately search for a “cure” for racism in mono-racial society. In any event, I hope you don’t cast me off as a bigot here, as I know some might.[/quote]You missed my point. Racism is a symptom. Arrogance and self righteous condescension, in other words, sin, is the central issue. We’re not trying to build a society by asserting better values. We are preaching the supernatural gospel of peace with God to everybody we see. Where Jesus is Lord, racism takes care of itself though not always instantaneously and if it doesn’t? Then it ain’t the gospel. I started this thread not because I view racism as the root of all evil (though it IS evil) and not because I believe racism will ever be “cured” in this life. I started this thread to simply point out that IF people really want to see racism diminished tremendously then the person and work of Jesus Christ is their ticket. Of course people don’t really want to see racism, or any other evil, abated bad enough to believe the gospel and that would be the wrong reason for believing anyway.

This guy did a good job of capturing the spirit of the gathering.

There’s a bunch up there now
Unbelievable!!! From a Catholic!!!

[quote]EACH prayer walk: expect Detroit to rise!

* By Karen Dudek, Detroit Catholic Issues Examiner
* April 16th, 2011 4:24 pm ET 

The prayer walk was scheduled to go forward on Saturday, April 16th at 9am rain or shine. The inspiration for the walk came from local TV weatherman, Chuck Gaidica, who, as a part of the EACH campaign (Everyone A Chance to Hear), invited 500 area churches to meet at Comerica Park in downtown Detroit to pray for the city.

But Gaidica’s weather forecast from his own station’s WDIV News, was for a cold and rainy day with showers to be heavy and winds gusting from 20 to 40 mph for the entire morning through to 12:00. It is not the kind of weather anyone enjoys being out in but what can anyone expect for April in Michigan? At 7am, conditions were forbidding: dark and cold and windy. At 8am, it was pouring rain and the skies were covered with dark grey stratus clouds. Winds were gusting as predicted.

By 8:45, rain slowed and at 9am, the dark clouds suddenly cleared over Comerica Park. The rain ceased and the wind was still. Blue sky appeared and a brilliant sunlight began to brighten the park. The turnout was great: estimated to be between 15,000 to 20,000 people and though clouds remained in the area, not a drop fell on the crowd as they began to pray and worship right on schedule.

Singing, How Great is our God! and Open the Eyes of my Heart Lord. Those who had made the pilgrimage: men, women, children, seniors, of all races and denominations worshiped God together lifting their hands in praise and worship.

Several speakers emphasized the weather phenomenon and the message it implies: that we need to rely on God to help us in our need. Scott McKee said, I came prepared for rain but I may have to break out the sunscreen! A sudden burst of sunbeams through the clouds caused the crowd to cheer at this remark. It was obvious to everyone who came bearing umbrellas and rain gear that this was a sign that God was blessing the assembly and the mission.

Pastor Bob Shirock reminded those gathered that when St. Paul prayed in prison, he did not ask to be set free but for the Gospel to go forward. Only God can open the door to the human heart! he said and he asked the assembly to pray for this together; that God would open the doors to hearts in Detroit.

Attorney Shannon Holmes, Chief of staff to mayor Dave Bing and Director of Detroit’s Human Resources Department spoke about the trouble in Detroit but recited 2 Chronicles 7:14 "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Ms. Holmes gave the crowd a word regarding the power of a believer acting in faith: Because God is in control of my life, he is going to be able to do great things for the city of Detroit!

Based on the belief that our problems are too big to solve ourselves, that the problems in the city have a spiritual dimension that no taxation or green car technology can fix, the EACH campaign is a plan to resurrect the city by God’s help.

Beginning with prayer, the EACH program leads to volunteer action and so serve the needs of their neighbors to share the message of Jesus with the world.

Pastor Shirock said, The world is watching Detroit to see how it can rise from the dead. We want them to see Jesus! We must have hope in Him, our foundation. Then we will see miracles!

The walk down Woodward Avenue to the Spirit of Detroit statue and back was peaceful. People walked quietly praying for various needs. At the Spirit of Detroit, groups bowed their heads and prayed together. The round trip took about one hour and people assembled once again at Comerica Park to hear the EACH message to volunteer and serve. The walk was finished. Then the rain began again.

St. Paul’s prayer to the Ephesians is so fitting for the city of Detroit: I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you¦For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.[/quote]

I was somewhat hesitant to post because I knew that you were trying to promote a message about God, rather than trying to promote a cure for racism. If you don’t want to continue this conversation because it is not in the spirit of the thread, that’s perfectly understandable.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
True Christians in which dwell the Spirit of the living God value HIS glory above all else and His glory is dimmed and even hidden where racism is allowed ascendancy. ALL men (including the girls) are created in His image and likeness and it has nothing to do with their skin. Nothing. A definition of racism is probably in order here actually. Racism as I am treating it is the viewing of the quality of a person’s dignity, morality, intrinsic worth, general character or any combination, therein, good or bad or both, as a function of the anthropological strain from which they descend.[/quote]

The bit about all men being created in the image of God and having nothing to do with skin is somewhat of a strawman, since race does not simply = skin color; skin color is just the most obvious aspect of race. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with holding the idea that God created different peoples’ with differing abilities (on average) and characteristics in order to truly have some diversity. That is real diversity, and that kind of diversity should be encouraged. The right of a people to exist as a distinct and separate group, I believe, is a right that all nations should preserve. I also have to make something clear: when I say that racism is inevitable and a part of human nature, I am NOT advocating it. I am simply recognizing it’s existence. Though I would say that it is not racist to recognize the relevancy of race as an indication, not determination, of certain attributes or characteristics. Race determines nothing in and of itself, and therefore if one is ONLY basing their opinion of another on their race, then it may rightly be considered racist. Race is just a highly relevant factor in individual, and especially group behavior. It is also not racist to express love or pride for one’s people, and to not want to associate with others of a different race.

You know, it’s interesting, when would you say that there was the greatest spirituality and sense of community, religion, and faith in America? I’m guessing you would be pinpointing the late 18th century, the 19th century, and the early 20th century as the greatest flowering of religious appreciation in American history. That also happens to be the time when race was considered to be a very important factor by most (respected) men at the time. That was the era of segregation, and yet, somehow, race ran deeper than religion at that time of great spirituality. I don’t necessarily wish to derive causation here, but one would expect that if religion were able to constrain racism, it certainly would have done it in these times. Maybe they just didn’t do it “right”, or just had one incredibly large “blind-spot”, but I highly doubt that we want to venture into the area of claiming that it just wasn’t the right kind of spirituality or community, would we? Human beings are simply not that perfectible. However, the mere fact that many men don’t heed the word of scripture almost proves my point that biology runs deeper than scripture; they can’t avoid biology, but they can avoid religion.

[quote]You missed my point. Racism is a symptom. Arrogance and self righteous condescension, in other words, sin, is the central issue. We’re not trying to build a society by asserting better values. We are preaching the supernatural gospel of peace with God to everybody we see. Where Jesus is Lord, racism takes care of itself though not always instantaneously and if it doesn’t? Then it ain’t the gospel. I started this thread not because I view racism as the root of all evil (though it IS evil) and not because I believe racism will ever be “cured” in this life. I started this thread to simply point out that IF people really want to see racism diminished tremendously then the person and work of Jesus Christ is their ticket. Of course people don’t really want to see racism, or any other evil, abated bad enough to believe the gospel and that would be the wrong reason for believing anyway.
[/quote]

Again, how do you explain the deeply held religious convictions of our “racist” forefathers then? Were they right on pretty much every issue except for race? They just all of the sudden were wrong here? I’m saying this because I’ve seen your admiration in past posts for the founding fathers.

Your description of religion as a central unifying force is similar, IMO, to the Marxist notion that the state can be a centrally unifying force of different economic classes, except in your case you are saying it about race (and not advocating state intervention, I might add), something that is biologically rooted in human beings and one of the most obvious aspects of individual and group identity. Why would religion all of the sudden do this when it has failed to in large quantities throughout the entire history of the world?

You’re killin me dude. Several volumes could be written in response to your comments and questions here. I have addressed everything (major) you’re asking, especially slavery. Slavery was sinfully wrong as practiced in the past of the American south. That said, it’s interaction with Christians in this nation is just not as simple as Christians held slaves so Christianity is onboard with southern American slavery. It just isn’t. I will try to give this some time when I can. These are very substantive posts of yours and do deserve some treatment.

I wasn’t implying that Christians were “onboard” with slavery, per their Christianity. Rather, I was making the point that their Christianity did not prevent them from practicing deep and explicit racism…for centuries even. My point is not that White Christians are somehow uniquely sinful (as is commonly promoted nowadays), but that the issue of a multiracial society is one that no country, or religion, has ever handled successfully.

I actually took you that way. Slavery was not universally practiced as the grinding, brutal, dehumanizing oppression that it is pretty much only known for and northern Christians were VERY heavily involved in emancipation. The point today is we do live together and in Christ it isn’t even difficult to not just get along, but love one another as family. Are saying we should avoid that?

Sorry for the late response, been very busy lately.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I actually took you that way. Slavery was not universally practiced as the grinding, brutal, dehumanizing oppression that it is pretty much only known for and northern Christians were VERY heavily involved in emancipation. The point today is we do live together and in Christ it isn’t even difficult to not just get along, but love one another as family. Are saying we should avoid that?[/quote]

Oh absolutely on slavery. Not to mention that white Christians are hardly the only ones who have been involved in heavy slave trading, and have even been victims of it many times.

I’m saying that race is one of the most serious fault lines in any society. Because of this, people will always have a natural attraction towards their own race. Sure, at church, people in moments of intense emotion and faith may proclaim that they’ve overcome racism. But, when it comes down to it, people are tribal and it is historically unprecedented that something like religion has been able to contain this. To some degree of course, it can, and I’m not saying that individuals can’t get along, I’m talking about group and ethnic dynamics. But, to answer your question more directly, races tend to more or less segregate themselves when left to their own devices. Lunchrooms, churches, backyard barbecues, and one’s residence are all examples of areas that have not yet seen forced integration and, miraculously, are almost completely segregated. We tried forced segregation for many years (slavery, Jim Crow, etc). We have been trying forced integration for the past 50 years or so (“free” immigration, affirmative action, busing integration, quotas, etc). I’m saying we try “free association” and see how that works. I’m not sure it should end at that, as I do believe that it is natural and healthy (and necessary, in some instances) for people to want to be a majority within a certain territory. But that at least would be a start, and indeed this would likely improve race relations instead of promoting this mindset of oppression that hurts blacks and whites alike.