Guaranteed Cure for Racism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
521

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

So then do you view the bible as being the word of god or just a bunch of old laws that were thought up by tribesman thousands of years ago? Regardless of who wrote the bible wouldnt it make more sense to just say “you are not aloud to own slaves. It is forbidden”? Wouldnt people assume that if there were rules on how to treat a slave then the lord viewed owning a slave was perfectly acceptable?[/quote]

Word of G-d. Wouldn’t it make more sense that He would have just forgiven Eve’s and Adam’s transgressions right there at the spot and kept us all in the Garden of Eden? Such an evil being! No, G-d allows evil to happen (not to be mistaken with doing evil) for the greater good. No, to your question. Is it perfectly acceptable for Noah to get drunk just because G-d didn’t outright forbid it? I suppose you could take it that direction, but G-d did it for a reason, I do not know. But the Church teaches that because of our hard hearts that He did not all at once forbid everything that which is evil.

[/quote]

Yes, I would completely agree.

Yes, it is very much is a sin to take someone against their will. Yes, when you buy someone they are usually considered your property. Look at St. Mary, she was bought before she was born and gave birth to Jesus (she was immaculately conceived and sinless) and was owned by G-d (it says in English that she was the handmaid of G-d, but the word in Greek means slave, plain cold truth). I am not saying that taking someone against their will is not a sin, I said the institution of slavery is not inherently evil (my vague and not the most accurate example was of the institution of slavery in South, which was evil because of how they acquired the slaves).

522

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people. [/quote]Oh am I ever gonna remember this one Chris. While I agree that there were slave owners in the south who treated their charges well, like family actually, and were loved by them, I disagree that that puts the institutionalized slavery of our history into the non evil category that is addressed by Peter and Paul. If that’s what you’re saying. What they were talking about was pretty much an employee/employer relationship in most cases. (yes, a bit of an oversimplification I realize)

The brand of slavery advocated by Actual southern Christians for instance, had they gotten their way legislatively would have outlawed any type of mistreatment or cruelty whatsoever. What they wanted amounted roughly to forced indentured servitude with good food, housing and humane working conditions. Forced employment if you will.

There were many slaves in such families who were devoted to and loved their masters with the feeling being mutual. (we absolutely never do hear about any of that) However, NONE of that makes slavery as it existed here any less evil as a practice. I assume you agree with all of this?

As for this guy here? Let him do some research if he’s really interested. I’m tired of these worshipers of the great google god who show up here with some cut n paste scholarship as if they’d just sprung some new unseen biblical content on somebody in light of which they should now see the error of their ways and forsake biblical Christianity.

Nobody does a better job of expositing the bible’s actual take on slavery than my very black pastor who very much gets it.

[/quote]

I suppose my metaphor was a little off as all of them are, I was not trying to say that the institution of slavery in America was not sinful, I was saying the institution of slavery in general is not inherently sinful, with which the Bible is speaking on. And, yes…I do disagree with your oversimplification of the relationship with which you make of the relationship the Bible is talking about.

It was very much a master/slave relationship, although we are told that we should treat our slaves as our friends even though they are our slaves. The general institution of slavery which the Bible talks about was a debt holder/debtor scenario (why we ask G-d to forgive our debts as we forgive those that we have debt against them in the Our Father). Someone would ask for money, they would not pay, and either they would go to prison (why Paul talks about you shall not go to Heaven until you pay the last mites or two mites, trans: Lit Quadrans or 164th of a daily wage; Purgatory) or become the persons slave to work off the debt (we can see this relationship further in the NT with do not have debts that you do you have another Master, but the Lord)…if someone was owed a debt and wished to collect that debt sooner than the worker could pay off their debt, they would be sold (why slaves were not supposed to be seperated from the family)to collect partial of that debt.

Yes, the brand of slavery in the United States was dispicable, broke up families, broke people’s spirits, caused scandal, broke commandments, went against people’s free wills, &c. The Institution in America of slavery had to be stopped, at the get go it was evil because of their process of getting the slaves (kidnap).

So, for clarification: American Slavery in the South, evil. Institution of slavery that is talked about in the Bible, not evil. The slaves owed a debt, the masters held the debt. The slaves were to work off the debt and were owned by the masters until the last mites were paid off. Kidnapping someone and making them your slave is evil.

523

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

[/quote]

Hmm. Well, since the bible in your opinion constitutes the unerring inspired word of God, don’t you think those passages above give licence to slavery? If not, instead of a treatise of how to treat a slave, why not a simple “thou shalt not keep slaves”?

Answer me please.[/quote]

Because the institution of slavery that is being talked about is not the same with which we have seen in America. Someone owed a debt, if they didn’t pay they went to jail or were a slave until they paid it off.

As well, even if it was, because G-d allows evils to do good, why did He allow Himself to be killed and crucified? To bring about good. As well, G-d treated people different (because we changed, not because he changed) through time because of our hard hearts. He let Noah get drunk, he let Adam and Eve wonder the Garden naked, he allowed people to get divorced, &c. As we grew he instructed us more and more in the proper ways (as one does with a child, no one spanks a baby for messing their diaper, but a 12 year old you would have to have a talking to).

But, plain and simple. I don’t know why, but that is what I have been taught.

524

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

[/quote]

Hmm. Well, since the bible in your opinion constitutes the unerring inspired word of God, don’t you think those passages above give licence to slavery? If not, instead of a treatise of how to treat a slave, why not a simple “thou shalt not keep slaves”?

Answer me please.[/quote]

Because the institution of slavery that is being talked about is not the same with which we have seen in America. Someone owed a debt, if they didn’t pay they went to jail or were a slave until they paid it off.

As well, even if it was, because G-d allows evils to do good, why did He allow Himself to be killed and crucified? To bring about good. As well, G-d treated people different (because we changed, not because he changed) through time because of our hard hearts. He let Noah get drunk, he let Adam and Eve wonder the Garden naked, he allowed people to get divorced, &c. As we grew he instructed us more and more in the proper ways (as one does with a child, no one spanks a baby for messing their diaper, but a 12 year old you would have to have a talking to).

But, plain and simple. I don’t know why, but that is what I have been taught.

525

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]

Eh…you mean like soccer? Because that has been known to cause fights.[/quote]

Do you only offer a serious reply when the subject is Catholicism? You played a sport and you should know exactly what I’m talking about. Anyway, I know you’re trying to be funny, but I said “play a sport”. The people fighting are the “fans”. [/quote]

No, about the only time I am serious is when it comes to abortion. The rest of the time I am very sarcastic, even with Catholicism.

My point was jerks will be jerks no matter what, most of the time.

Case in point, my grandpa was a Merchant Marine in WWII, he was transporting one of the all black platoons from America to over seas. Their commander got into some trouble with the enemy the first night in port, these men headed out, fought and killed his captors and brought him back passed enemy lines. He fought a whole war with these men and when he came back, did he change his racist inclinations? No, he was still the same even though all they went through.[/quote]

Did he volunteer for WWII? Doubtful. Sport is different and you know it. We choose to play sport and we choose to come back the next day. A hard core racist is just that, but I have not seen very many hard core racists in sport.

The answer is certainly not religion. It hasn’t been the answer yet and it’s had thousands of years to prove me wrong. [/quote]

That could be true, but what I am trying to point out that if someone is a racist they will be a racist no matter what, even if every conceivable notion towards someone is blown out to be false. Same for sports, and yeah…it may be true that sports does help…commonalities does help for that, but that isn’t a fool proof plan.

526

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
I made this exact point earlier and I am going to guess we are getting a “you dont understand the will of god” type answer[/quote]

No, you just do not know history.

527

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

[/quote]

Hmm. Well, since the bible in your opinion constitutes the unerring inspired word of God, don’t you think those passages above give licence to slavery? If not, instead of a treatise of how to treat a slave, why not a simple “thou shalt not keep slaves”?

Answer me please.[/quote]

Because the institution of slavery that is being talked about is not the same with which we have seen in America. Someone owed a debt, if they didn’t pay they went to jail or were a slave until they paid it off.

As well, even if it was, because G-d allows evils to do good, why did He allow Himself to be killed and crucified? To bring about good. As well, G-d treated people different (because we changed, not because he changed) through time because of our hard hearts. He let Noah get drunk, he let Adam and Eve wonder the Garden naked, he allowed people to get divorced, &c. As we grew he instructed us more and more in the proper ways (as one does with a child, no one spanks a baby for messing their diaper, but a 12 year old you would have to have a talking to).

But, plain and simple. I don’t know why, but that is what I have been taught.[/quote]

Sorry but this was weak. No disrespect. We can judge a message for it’s content. We shouldn’t have to make excuses for it. Clear pure water appears to be just that. When you put a drop of ink in the water, now you start explaining this nonsense about it wasn’t the same slavery and that God allows evil to exist. This isn’t a matter of merely allowing evil to exist as you put it, this is a matter of providing instruction as to how slavery (among other evils) would be handled. If you cannot see the hand, the mind, the pen of man there, nothing can convince you. God may have allowed Noah to get drunk as you claim, but it’s quite another to provide the instructions for getting drunk.

Your closing was closer to the truth. You do not know why. And yes, it’s what you’ve been taught. I know the truth - that crap was not “divinely inspired”.

528

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
.commonalities does help for that, but that isn’t a fool proof plan.[/quote]

There is no fool proof plan.

529

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
now you start explaining this nonsense about it wasn’t the same slavery and that God allows evil to exist. This isn’t a matter of merely allowing evil to exist as you put it, this is a matter of providing instruction as to how slavery (among other evils) would be handled. If you cannot see the hand, the mind, the pen of man there, nothing can convince you. God may have allowed Noah to get drunk as you claim, but it’s quite another to provide the instructions for getting drunk.

Your closing was closer to the truth. You do not know why. And yes, it’s what you’ve been taught. I know the truth - that crap was not “divinely inspired”. [/quote]

Yes, the Bible was not talking about the same slavery which we had in America. And, yes G-d allows evil to exist, the biggest example of G-d allowing evil is Jesus’ Crucifixion. The creator allowing his creation kill him in a dishonorable death that which is reserved for thieves and the worst of the worst.

How is someone being indentured to someone to pay their debt and evil? Moses gave instructions on how to treat slaves better. Yes, I was taught it, and how do you know the truth? Because I was taught something it means that I don’t know the truth…that doesn’t make sense, and how do you know it wasn’t divinely inspired? If it is not part of your faith, then I don’t suppose that you would believe it, I wouldn’t imagine any reason you would believe it. But, what proof do you have that it wasn’t divinely inspired?

530

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
.commonalities does help for that, but that isn’t a fool proof plan.[/quote]

There is no fool proof plan. [/quote]

Of course, it just seemed to me that you were suggesting that sports was a fool proof plan.

531

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:I suppose my metaphor was a little off as all of them are, I was not trying to say that the institution of slavery in America was not sinful, I was saying the institution of slavery in general is not inherently sinful, with which the Bible is speaking on. And, yes…I do disagree with your oversimplification of the relationship with which you make of the relationship the Bible is talking about.

It was very much a master/slave relationship, although we are told that we should treat our slaves as our friends even though they are our slaves. The general institution of slavery which the Bible talks about was a debt holder/debtor scenario (why we ask G-d to forgive our debts as we forgive those that we have debt against them in the Our Father). Someone would ask for money, they would not pay, and either they would go to prison (why Paul talks about you shall not go to Heaven until you pay the last mites or two mites, trans: Lit Quadrans or 164th of a daily wage;<<<>>>) or become the persons slave to work off the debt (we can see this relationship further in the NT with do not have debts that you do you have another Master, but the Lord)…if someone was owed a debt and wished to collect that debt sooner than the worker could pay off their debt, they would be sold (why slaves were not supposed to be seperated from the family)to collect partial of that debt.

Yes, the brand of slavery in the United States was dispicable, broke up families, broke people’s spirits, caused scandal, broke commandments, went against people’s free wills, &c. The Institution in America of slavery had to be stopped, at the get go it was evil because of their process of getting the slaves (kidnap).

So, for clarification: American Slavery in the South, evil. Institution of slavery that is talked about in the Bible, not evil. The slaves owed a debt, the masters held the debt. The slaves were to work off the debt and were owned by the masters until the last mites were paid off. Kidnapping someone and making them your slave is evil.[/quote]Not bad Chris. Pretty much agree. To be clear, regardless of what what we incessantly disagree about, I did not believe for a second that you were actually advocating the slavery of the American south. I know you better than that.

532

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
now you start explaining this nonsense about it wasn’t the same slavery and that God allows evil to exist. This isn’t a matter of merely allowing evil to exist as you put it, this is a matter of providing instruction as to how slavery (among other evils) would be handled. If you cannot see the hand, the mind, the pen of man there, nothing can convince you. God may have allowed Noah to get drunk as you claim, but it’s quite another to provide the instructions for getting drunk.

Your closing was closer to the truth. You do not know why. And yes, it’s what you’ve been taught. I know the truth - that crap was not “divinely inspired”. [/quote]

Yes, the Bible was not talking about the same slavery which we had in America. And, yes G-d allows evil to exist, the biggest example of G-d allowing evil is Jesus’ Crucifixion. The creator allowing his creation kill him in a dishonorable death that which is reserved for thieves and the worst of the worst.

How is someone being indentured to someone to pay their debt and evil? Moses gave instructions on how to treat slaves better. Yes, I was taught it, and how do you know the truth? Because I was taught something it means that I don’t know the truth…that doesn’t make sense, and how do you know it wasn’t divinely inspired? If it is not part of your faith, then I don’t suppose that you would believe it, I wouldn’t imagine any reason you would believe it. But, what proof do you have that it wasn’t divinely inspired?[/quote]

By it’s bitter fruit.

533

Praise be to the glorious name of Jesus the first news coverage arrives. Detroit Local News - Michigan News - Breaking News - detroitnews.com I’m betting it remains positive until a real difference starts being made. Minister John gets his media debut LOL! Our group went the other way down Grand River from where his went. A local Chevy dealership owned by believers just donated 10 vans for food distribution, neighborhood cleanup and other ministry stuff. There are also Christian doctors and dentists who will be donating free services as the law allows in portable clinics to these 3rd world Detroit neighborhoods. The Detroit city council will be meeting at Evangel next Saturday afternoon. This is all news I just got this morning.

The goal is to see the triumphant risen Son of the most high sovereign God glorify Himself in raising the rotting corpse of the once mighty motor city to new life in such a way that nobody will be able to deny His transforming power. We want it to be impossible to find anybody to give any explanation for the undeniable transformation of the city of Detroit except Jesus. Microphones stuck in everybody’s face and the universal declaration is that God almighty is redeeming this city for His Son. May take a while, but the saints which are at Detroit will not cease to beseech our Lord and storm the gates of hell that have held this town in bondage for 50 years.

534

While we were out on the streets yesterday, 4 of us in my group. There was a guy going into a liquor store with like 2 teeth left, scars on his wrinkled unshaven face, lookin like about 160 or 70 pounds of walking death. We stopped and talked to him. His name was Eddie. He was drunk, nose running all over the place, eyes half open. It tore my heart out (and brought back memories). After some small talk I asked him if we could pray for him. He agreed. We held hands, he was tipping back and forth, but I prayed for this guy with everything I had that my beautiful merciful Jesus would take this man in His arms and raise him from sin and death into new life in Himself, the other brother and 2 sisters agreeing with me. When we were done I could barely choke back the tears looking in his empty eyes. I put my arm around him and told him “it doesn’t have to be like this. You can be free, I know what I’m talkin about. All you have to do is ask. The price has already been paid”. I gave him my phone number and the address to the church (a few blocks away) and told him to call me any time.

When service was over today, the other guy in our group came and found me and told me to follow him. He took me through the pews to a different section from where I usually sit and there was Eddie!!! I didn’t even think he’d remember having met us. Looking a bit cleaned up since yesterday, sober and asking how he could have the peace and joy that we have. HALLELUJAH!!!

See we can debate, I’m talking about professing Christians now, all day long about how “Calvinism is fatalism” and “predestination makes sharing the faith meaningless” and how free and exalted the majestic will of man is. This I know. A hopelessly destroyed man bearing the broken image of his God was brought from death to life today. He’s gonna be OK. You mark my words. A few faithful believers, standing in awe of and gratitude for what Christ Jesus has done for them simply couldn’t help but tell somebody. One of them believed and we have a new brother who will one day soon also be on those streets telling others about his new life.

So go ahead and postulate and ponder all day about the 4th book of Aristotle’s metaphysics, which is where Aquinas got all this man worshiping humanistic theology in the first place. Us so called Calvinists, fatalistic slaves of determinism that you say we are, will simply go on believing that ALL that the Father has given the Son WILL come to Him by the irresistible grace of the Holy Spirit. I am humbled and honored that the Father of lights would see fit to use a loser like me who was just as filthy and lost as Eddie, to help bring one His sons to glory.

Oh yeah, I am the only white person in this stories cast. The 2 ladies, the other guy and Eddie are all black. Nobody cares, especially God.

535

Word now is that all nine members of the Detroit city council http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/CityCouncil/tabid/2509/Default.aspx will be at the meeting at our church, they moved it up to Tuesday night and it will be public. I believe God is preparing the harvest.
Also the girl from a few pages ago?[quote]We baptized 4 more new believers this morning including an 18 year old girl who showed up at our celebrate recovery meeting Friday night. One of the women brought this kid in. The fun streets of Detroit have really taken a toll on this young lady. Being shot and left for dead finally convinced her that there might not be a future in the life she was leading. It was absolutely beautiful seeing her buried with Jesus in baptism and raised with Him in new life. She’ll have plenty of discipling from some of the other girls.[/quote]She showed up at church in a dress all done up pretty n lady like =] The women have been working with her. I was like “WOW!, look at you. a picture of loveliness”. She had no idea how to respond to a man (a white man at that) giving her an honest compliment in a completely non sexual manner, but it was great to see her whole image of herself transforming.

536

Guess you can’t go on with telling a story without hating on Catholics. I guess that’s what Jesus did, threw jabs at people’s ribs. Even though you’re wrong, Tirib. But, I don’t have time to discuss this with you.

537

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Guess you can’t go on with telling a story without hating on Catholics. I guess that’s what Jesus did, threw jabs at people’s ribs. Even though you’re wrong, Tirib. But, I don’t have time to discuss this with you.[/quote]I don’t hate on CatholicS Chris. Why ya gotta do this again? Howcome you’re allowed to hate my Calvinism and love me, but I’m not allowed to hate your catholicism and love you? Am I ever going to get an answer to that? I was addressing a criticism from another thread with an object lesson in this one.

538

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Both seem shackled to their religious identity. Dismiss the labels and the prejudice served by such and you can speak as intelligent men. The different sects of the Christian religion discourage further investigation by those of us who are lost or in doubt, when they cannot agree amongst themselves.

539

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

What? When do I bring Calvin, Luther, Van Til, &c. up when I’m talking about converting people, the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, the Poor Clares, St. Mary’s food bank, CRS, going to Argentina to feed the hungry and build homes for the homeless?

I don’t, however, you go on about having some girl dressing nice for once and a drunk sobering up (all wonderful things, by the way) then you go on to smash on SAINT (in case you forgot, the man is a Saint…in Heaven, he persevered, saved by the grace of G-d, canonized, and declared a Doctor of the Church because of the quality which he wrote about G-d, faith, and morals) Aquinas in the same key strokes.

Do you see me bringing up these people when I’m talking about what the Lord is doing in the lives of sinners in front of my own eyes? No, that is why I bring this up, now. I don’t hate your Calvinism, I don’t accept it, but I tolerate it because I realise that you’re a child of G-d and theological issues aside, you have freedom of conscience.

Now, go ahead and commence your Catholic bashing. We’ll be here respecting your freedom of conscience and waiting for you to come home to the Bride of Christ.

540

[quote]Pwrbldr4life wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Both seem shackled to their religious identity. Dismiss the labels and the prejudice served by such and you can speak as intelligent men. The different sects of the Christian religion discourage further investigation by those of who are lost or in doubt, when they cannot agree amongst themselves.
[/quote]

This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. I’m all for ecumenical efforts, but I have no clue what you just said.

And, for the moment I’ll reserve my thoughts on prejudice.