Guaranteed Cure for Racism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
501

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]

Eh…you mean like soccer? Because that has been known to cause fights.[/quote]

Do you only offer a serious reply when the subject is Catholicism? You played a sport and you should know exactly what I’m talking about. Anyway, I know you’re trying to be funny, but I said “play a sport”. The people fighting are the “fans”.

502

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]What I want is the advancement of the glory of the risen Christ. Defeating racism is a happy and inevitable side effect.

503

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]What I want is the advancement of the glory of the risen Christ. Defeating racism is a happy and inevitable side effect.
[/quote]

How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism?

504

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]

Eh…you mean like soccer? Because that has been known to cause fights.[/quote]

Do you only offer a serious reply when the subject is Catholicism? You played a sport and you should know exactly what I’m talking about. Anyway, I know you’re trying to be funny, but I said “play a sport”. The people fighting are the “fans”. [/quote]

No, about the only time I am serious is when it comes to abortion. The rest of the time I am very sarcastic, even with Catholicism.

My point was jerks will be jerks no matter what, most of the time.

Case in point, my grandpa was a Merchant Marine in WWII, he was transporting one of the all black platoons from America to over seas. Their commander got into some trouble with the enemy the first night in port, these men headed out, fought and killed his captors and brought him back passed enemy lines. He fought a whole war with these men and when he came back, did he change his racist inclinations? No, he was still the same even though all they went through.

505

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.

506

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11

507

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

508

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

So then do you view the bible as being the word of god or just a bunch of old laws that were thought up by tribesman thousands of years ago? Regardless of who wrote the bible wouldnt it make more sense to just say “you are not aloud to own slaves. It is forbidden”? Wouldnt people assume that if there were rules on how to treat a slave then the lord viewed owning a slave was perfectly acceptable?

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

So you dont think that keeping another human being against their will, regardless of how they are treated, is intrinsically evil? These people were not allowed to walk away from their situation and were concidered property. Whether or not their masters treated them well is a moot point. Im pretty sure that if someone forcibly took you from your home and family, but made you a king in another land, you would have some objection to your situation at some point, such as not being allowed to ever see family, friends, or your home again regardless of how great of a life you were living. Would you not agree?

[/quote]

509

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people. [/quote]Oh am I ever gonna remember this one Chris. While I agree that there were slave owners in the south who treated their charges well, like family actually, and were loved by them, I disagree that that puts the institutionalized slavery of our history into the non evil category that is addressed by Peter and Paul. If that’s what you’re saying. What they were talking about was pretty much an employee/employer relationship in most cases. (yes, a bit of an oversimplification I realize)

The brand of slavery advocated by Actual southern Christians for instance, had they gotten their way legislatively would have outlawed any type of mistreatment or cruelty whatsoever. What they wanted amounted roughly to forced indentured servitude with good food, housing and humane working conditions. Forced employment if you will.

There were many slaves in such families who were devoted to and loved their masters with the feeling being mutual. (we absolutely never do hear about any of that) However, NONE of that makes slavery as it existed here any less evil as a practice. I assume you agree with all of this?

As for this guy here? Let him do some research if he’s really interested. I’m tired of these worshipers of the great google god who show up here with some cut n paste scholarship as if they’d just sprung some new unseen biblical content on somebody in light of which they should now see the error of their ways and forsake biblical Christianity.

Nobody does a better job of expositing the bible’s actual take on slavery than my very black pastor who very much gets it.

510

"As for this guy here? Let him do some research if he’s really interested. I’m tired of these worshipers of the great google god who show up here with some cut n paste scholarship as if they’d just sprung some new unseen biblical content on somebody in light of which they should now see the error of their ways and forsake biblical Christianity. "

Which guy are you refering to here?

511

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You want a much less complicated “cure for racism” that does not divide people like religion does? It’s called “sport”. Play a sport with teammates from other races. After a lifetime of sport, it’s very difficult to be racist. [/quote]

Eh…you mean like soccer? Because that has been known to cause fights.[/quote]

Do you only offer a serious reply when the subject is Catholicism? You played a sport and you should know exactly what I’m talking about. Anyway, I know you’re trying to be funny, but I said “play a sport”. The people fighting are the “fans”. [/quote]

No, about the only time I am serious is when it comes to abortion. The rest of the time I am very sarcastic, even with Catholicism.

My point was jerks will be jerks no matter what, most of the time.

Case in point, my grandpa was a Merchant Marine in WWII, he was transporting one of the all black platoons from America to over seas. Their commander got into some trouble with the enemy the first night in port, these men headed out, fought and killed his captors and brought him back passed enemy lines. He fought a whole war with these men and when he came back, did he change his racist inclinations? No, he was still the same even though all they went through.[/quote]

Did he volunteer for WWII? Doubtful. Sport is different and you know it. We choose to play sport and we choose to come back the next day. A hard core racist is just that, but I have not seen very many hard core racists in sport.

The answer is certainly not religion. It hasn’t been the answer yet and it’s had thousands of years to prove me wrong.

512

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

[/quote]

Hmm. Well, since the bible in your opinion constitutes the unerring inspired word of God, don’t you think those passages above give licence to slavery? If not, instead of a treatise of how to treat a slave, why not a simple “thou shalt not keep slaves”?

Answer me please.

513

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<
There were many slaves in such families who were devoted to and loved their masters with the feeling being mutual.

[/quote]

Wow. You almost made it sound like a pet owner.

“There were many dogs in cats in such families who were devoted to and loved their masters with the feeling being mutual.”

514

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
How is following a religion whose holy book advocates things such as slavery a cure for racism? [/quote]

Advocates, where does it advocate? Because I think you’re just making things up.[/quote]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. 1 Timothy 6:1-2

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7-11[/quote]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I said where does it advocate slavery, not talk about it. You have one passage that says “you may” purchase a slave as that was the custom and was not as the custom which resulted partially in the Civil War, just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. St. Mary is the slave of G-d, Jesus came down to make himself as a slave.

Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c.

However, slavery is to be no more. There is nothing intrinsically evil in slavery (we can see this by the otherwise good relationship between SOME, not all, some masters and slaves in the South in which cases the slaves were set free at the time of their Masters death), but the mistreatment of people (which the Bible addresses when it comes to slaves, most of the time when it talks about slaves) is intrinsically evil and should never be tolerated either when it is to free or enslave people.

[/quote]

Hmm. Well, since the bible in your opinion constitutes the unerring inspired word of God, don’t you think those passages above give licence to slavery? If not, instead of a treatise of how to treat a slave, why not a simple “thou shalt not keep slaves”?

Answer me please.[/quote]
I made this exact point earlier and I am going to guess we are getting a “you dont understand the will of god” type answer

515

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
"As for this guy here? Let him do some research if he’s really interested. I’m tired of these worshipers of the great google god who show up here with some cut n paste scholarship as if they’d just sprung some new unseen biblical content on somebody in light of which they should now see the error of their ways and forsake biblical Christianity. "

Which guy are you refering to here?[/quote]That would be you. The concept of slavery in, especially the old testament scriptures, is not as simple as a few quick passages and there we are. If you really care do some research. You don’t really care though. It’s obvious by the way you entered this discussion.

Therefore I will not waste my time with laying out exactly how this topic is treated in the bible. Others have done it and probably better than I could. Look around. Suffice it to say that nowhere in any part of the bible was the abject racially grounded slavery of American history condoned in any way.

There are many hundreds of black people in my church who understand this and we treat each other like the closest of family despite my being blue eyed and white as can be.

516

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:
"As for this guy here? Let him do some research if he’s really interested. I’m tired of these worshipers of the great google god who show up here with some cut n paste scholarship as if they’d just sprung some new unseen biblical content on somebody in light of which they should now see the error of their ways and forsake biblical Christianity. "

Which guy are you refering to here?[/quote]That would be you. The concept of slavery in, especially the old testament scriptures, is not as simple as a few quick passages and there we are. If you really care do some research. You don’t really care though. It’s obvious by the way you entered this discussion.

Therefore I will not waste my time with laying out exactly how this topic is treated in the bible. Others have done it and probably better than I could. Look around. Suffice it to say that nowhere in any part of the bible was the abject racially grounded slavery of American history condoned in any way.

There are many hundreds of black people in my church who understand this and we treat each other like the closest of family despite my being blue eyed and white as can be.
[/quote]

Sigh…and here we go. The bible is more complex, you cant understand the will of god, we only follow the new testament, you arent praying hard enough, you never really had god in your heart. I have heard them all before.

Why is it so hard for you to at least admit that slavery is an acceptable practice of christianity as written in the bible when the words from that very book are staring you right in the face? If I make up a book with the rules on how to properly rape a girl, or murder someone can I use the excuse of “the concept is not as simple as a few quick passages” to justify the practice in any way?

Nice google reference btw. Im assuming that when you need to reference any information that you re-read the entire book with said info rather than google the reference right?

517

Try this for starters. The Bible and Slavery Mostly New Testament and I don’t know this guy, but a cursory reading appears to be pretty solid. I don’t have a lot of time at the moment.

518

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Try this for starters. The Bible and Slavery Mostly New Testament and I don’t know this guy, but a cursory reading appears to be pretty solid. I don’t have a lot of time at the moment.[/quote]

Fair enough. Ill check it out

519

[quote]ColumboSteel wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Try this for starters. The Bible and Slavery Mostly New Testament and I don’t know this guy, but a cursory reading appears to be pretty solid. I don’t have a lot of time at the moment.[/quote]

Fair enough. Ill check it out[/quote]And fair enough back. There’s more too, but I promise you that the treatment of slavery in the bible is not what you think. Lemme give you one giant governing guideline for understanding the vast overall layout of the biblical system of thought. Forget for now whether you actually believe any of this or not. God’s created order is displayed in the first 3 chapters of Genesis.

After the fall into sin the whole of old testament history is God’s ordering a damaged (dead actually) creation toward redemption from this fallen state. Jesus of Nazareth was and is that redemption. Between the 3rd chapter of Genesis and the 2nd chapter of the acts of the apostles God dealt with Israel as an earthly theocratic nation and much of that economy was a type and a figure of Christ’s kingdom which is not of this world. In other words what was seen then is unseen now. (Read the awe inspiring book of Hebrews). God sent David into battle against earthly armies. The apostle Paul says the weapons of OUR warfare are NOT carnal (fleshly) and WE battle NOT against flesh and blood.

I’ll explain more if you’re actually interested.

520

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< just because one owns slaves does not mean one is a racist. >>>[/quote]This is quite true to be fair to my pal Christopher here. I am a very grateful and willing slave to righteousness(Romans 6:18). Ok, not the same thing I know.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Either way, there is no advocating of slavery in the Bible, and this is not my personal interpretation this is from the Church as I am using the totality of Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and religious analogy into account. I am sure you can prove a lot of stuff untrue through proof text, denying of tradition, &c. >>>[/quote]With some adjusted definitions (like church) I have to essentially agree here too.