[quote]Makavali wrote:
It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
He did. It’s called Heaven. Luckily, though, God doesn’t run a welfare state. You gotta do a little work to get in.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
[/quote]
God did not create evil, however as I said he gave us (and Satan) free will.[/quote]
God created everything.[/quote]
Evil is the absence of God, a.k.a. you hate God. [/quote]
God is both omnipotent and omniscient. There is no absence of God.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
Incorrect, God does not sanction evil, he gave us free will, and when God is absent in us (of our own free will) we do evil. [/quote]
Free will is His creation, and the evil that flows from it is also His.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.
Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
[/quote]
God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.
Evil = God
I have a problem with this free will business. Not with free will itself. But when evil is brought up in an argument to bolster the idea of god’s perfection.
I understand that evil is a necessary. However, the degree (amount) of evil present in the world does not justify it. Non-human evil doesn’t justify it.
Furthermore, we may have free will, but our instincts would have to be shaped by a god (if you are arguing for a god). We aren’t all given the same tempraments, and many of us have mental ailments. Psychopaths, paranoid schizophrenics etc. can cause plenty of ‘evil’ and misery. Is it of their own volition? No. They don’t have a great deal of choice.
So what if god had made us automatons? How would that be a worse world? Why didn’t he give us a capacity of love far outweighing a capacity for hate? Currently, the balance seems oddly skewed away from good.
It cannot have anything to do with original sin. That wasn’t, and shouldn’t be, the problem of orphaned children around the world.
Hey, god could’ve chosen NOT to create a world at all. Now that would’ve been love, no?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.
Evil = God[/quote]
You’re never going to get a job writing for a fortune cookie company.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I have a problem with this free will business. Not with free will itself. But when evil is brought up in an argument to bolster the idea of god’s perfection.
I understand that evil is a necessary. However, the degree (amount) of evil present in the world does not justify it. Non-human evil doesn’t justify it.
Furthermore, we may have free will, but our instincts would have to be shaped by a god (if you are arguing for a god). We aren’t all given the same tempraments, and many of us have mental ailments. Psychopaths, paranoid schizophrenics etc. can cause plenty of ‘evil’ and misery. Is it of their own volition? No. They don’t have a great deal of choice.
So what if god had made us automatons? How would that be a worse world? Why didn’t he give us a capacity of love far outweighing a capacity for hate? Currently, the balance seems oddly skewed away from good.
It cannot have anything to do with original sin. That wasn’t, and shouldn’t be, the problem of orphaned children around the world.
Hey, god could’ve chosen NOT to create a world at all. Now that would’ve been love, no?[/quote]
No offence (honestly), but none of these statements are really arguments. They are just aspects of doctrine that you don’t like.
Those not in control of their mental faculties are not going to be judged as if there were.
Different temperaments are what makes life interesting. Imaging if everyone had the temperament of Rosie O’Donnel. I’d shoot myself and send myself to hell to escape it. (kidding, kidding)
Non-human causes of evil are not evil, they are just shit that happens. You atheists always come at things from the wrong angle when attempting to construct religious syllogisms. Remember, we’re talking about 70 years maybe compared to eternity. If you end up in Heaven or Hell, either way, do you think in a million years you’ll still be walking around with a chip on your shoulder about you got swallowed up by a sinkhole?
And to your orphaned children statement, I’ll direct you here:
http://thirdworldorphans.org/gpage.html34.html
A lot of times it is exactly the fire of rough conditions and terrible situations that forge the steel of human character. In addition to the accomplishments of the list of people above, how many others do you think they inspired?
God can’t be placed into a little box of your design.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I have a problem with this free will business. Not with free will itself. But when evil is brought up in an argument to bolster the idea of god’s perfection.
I understand that evil is a necessary. However, the degree (amount) of evil present in the world does not justify it. Non-human evil doesn’t justify it.
Furthermore, we may have free will, but our instincts would have to be shaped by a god (if you are arguing for a god). We aren’t all given the same tempraments, and many of us have mental ailments. Psychopaths, paranoid schizophrenics etc. can cause plenty of ‘evil’ and misery. Is it of their own volition? No. They don’t have a great deal of choice.
So what if god had made us automatons? How would that be a worse world? Why didn’t he give us a capacity of love far outweighing a capacity for hate? Currently, the balance seems oddly skewed away from good.
It cannot have anything to do with original sin. That wasn’t, and shouldn’t be, the problem of orphaned children around the world.
Hey, god could’ve chosen NOT to create a world at all. Now that would’ve been love, no?[/quote]
No offence (honestly), but none of these statements are really arguments. They are just aspects of doctrine that you don’t like.
Those not in control of their mental faculties are not going to be judged as if there were.
Different temperaments are what makes life interesting. Imaging if everyone had the temperament of Rosie O’Donnel. I’d shoot myself and send myself to hell to escape it. (kidding, kidding)
Non-human causes of evil are not evil, they are just shit that happens. You atheists always come at things from the wrong angle when attempting to construct religious syllogisms. Remember, we’re talking about 70 years maybe compared to eternity. If you end up in Heaven or Hell, either way, do you think in a million years you’ll still be walking around with a chip on your shoulder about you got swallowed up by a sinkhole?
And to your orphaned children statement, I’ll direct you here:
http://thirdworldorphans.org/gpage.html34.html
A lot of times it is exactly the fire of rough conditions and terrible situations that forge the steel of human character. In addition to the accomplishments of the list of people above, how many others do you think they inspired?
God can’t be placed into a little box of your design.
[/quote]
No offense taken. Yes, I’m aware that they are statements. It is impossible to form an argument on the forum, since there are hundreds of different arguments going on back and forth.
Furthermore, they are no less an argument than most of those given by apologists, or even instances in the bible. Much of what you derive your religion and faith from, is nothing more than a statement, or a claim without any evidence underpinning it. For each claim made in the bible, a similar claim can be made in the koran. Which one is right? You can’t demonstrate one to be truer than the other. It comes down to faith, and faith relies not on argument/reason, but on arbitrary foundations.
You’re talking about differing tempraments making life interesting. Why is it so important that we have an interesting life only through disaster and disease? I’m sure a powerful god could somehow conjure up a world where “shit” didn’t just happen to good people, and make life interesting. You haven’t dealt with the problem of the “degree” of evil on the earth. Why is it so? Because god wants it to be? Is that a good enough reason for you?
Orphans who achieved fame? What about orphans who were picked up by slavers or rapists, who became hooked on a hard drug and died a violent death? Want to hazard a guess at who outnumbers who?
Why can’t god be placed into a little box of my design? You haven’t defined what you believe god to be, so basically I’m not really arguing against anything. Tell me about this god. His characteristics, his nature. I’m interested (honestly)
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I have a problem with this free will business. Not with free will itself. But when evil is brought up in an argument to bolster the idea of god’s perfection.
I understand that evil is a necessary. However, the degree (amount) of evil present in the world does not justify it. Non-human evil doesn’t justify it.
Furthermore, we may have free will, but our instincts would have to be shaped by a god (if you are arguing for a god). We aren’t all given the same tempraments, and many of us have mental ailments. Psychopaths, paranoid schizophrenics etc. can cause plenty of ‘evil’ and misery. Is it of their own volition? No. They don’t have a great deal of choice.
So what if god had made us automatons? How would that be a worse world? Why didn’t he give us a capacity of love far outweighing a capacity for hate? Currently, the balance seems oddly skewed away from good.
It cannot have anything to do with original sin. That wasn’t, and shouldn’t be, the problem of orphaned children around the world.
Hey, god could’ve chosen NOT to create a world at all. Now that would’ve been love, no?[/quote]
No offence (honestly), but none of these statements are really arguments. They are just aspects of doctrine that you don’t like.
Those not in control of their mental faculties are not going to be judged as if there were.
Different temperaments are what makes life interesting. Imaging if everyone had the temperament of Rosie O’Donnel. I’d shoot myself and send myself to hell to escape it. (kidding, kidding)
Non-human causes of evil are not evil, they are just shit that happens. You atheists always come at things from the wrong angle when attempting to construct religious syllogisms. Remember, we’re talking about 70 years maybe compared to eternity. If you end up in Heaven or Hell, either way, do you think in a million years you’ll still be walking around with a chip on your shoulder about you got swallowed up by a sinkhole?
And to your orphaned children statement, I’ll direct you here:
http://thirdworldorphans.org/gpage.html34.html
A lot of times it is exactly the fire of rough conditions and terrible situations that forge the steel of human character. In addition to the accomplishments of the list of people above, how many others do you think they inspired?
God can’t be placed into a little box of your design.
[/quote]
No offense taken. Yes, I’m aware that they are statements. It is impossible to form an argument on the forum, since there are hundreds of different arguments going on back and forth.
Furthermore, they are no less an argument than most of those given by apologists, or even instances in the bible. Much of what you derive your religion and faith from, is nothing more than a statement, or a claim without any evidence underpinning it. For each claim made in the bible, a similar claim can be made in the koran. Which one is right? You can’t demonstrate one to be truer than the other. It comes down to faith, and faith relies not on argument/reason, but on arbitrary foundations.
You’re talking about differing tempraments making life interesting. Why is it so important that we have an interesting life only through disaster and disease? I’m sure a powerful god could somehow conjure up a world where “shit” didn’t just happen to good people, and make life interesting. You haven’t dealt with the problem of the “degree” of evil on the earth. Why is it so? Because god wants it to be? Is that a good enough reason for you?
Orphans who achieved fame? What about orphans who were picked up by slavers or rapists, who became hooked on a hard drug and died a violent death? Want to hazard a guess at who outnumbers who?
Why can’t god be placed into a little box of my design? You haven’t defined what you believe god to be, so basically I’m not really arguing against anything. Tell me about this god. His characteristics, his nature. I’m interested (honestly)[/quote]
My point, in a nutshell, is this: without “evil” (I think the term as you are using it would be better described as “human suffering.”) nothing matters. Humans need adversity and hardship and struggle to push against to make themselves stronger. A life without any hardship, completely devoid of all suffering, sheltered and provided for and protected in every way, would in most cases produce somebody I don’t want to have anything to do with.
The orphans picked up by slave traders? They had a hard life. Too fucking bad. It’s really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really short compared to eternity, and no matter how bad it was, if we do possess souls, the soul is highly unlikely to give much of a shit one way or the other how its body died, or lived, for that matter. It’s like a little kid getting a vaccination. He thinks it’s just about the most horrific thing that could occur to him. Later, when he becomes an adult, he can’t even remember the emotions he felt, and perhaps chuckles at the memory of making such a big deal over a little pin prick.
I don’t exactly have the time to define who I believe God to be just now, but you seem to have a pretty good idea who He is, as I can see from the long list of grievances you have against Him. 
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.
Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
[/quote]
God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.
Evil = God[/quote]
I never said Satan was a mistake. Are you paying attention? The fact that you think God is evil shows your lack of understanding of the nature of God (if you think some people are complicated you’re in for a shock). God created Satan and gave him free will and Satan chose to do evil and rebel. That makes Satan evil, not God. You can’t quite wrap your arms around the fact that God is a sovereign being. He cannot make a mistake. Before you debate these matters and lead people astray with your lack of knowledge it would be a good idea for you to actually study the Bible. I’m not saying you have to agree with what it says, but at least understand what it says so you are better able to poke holes in it. Because as of right now you’re just looking silly.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I have a problem with this free will business. Not with free will itself. But when evil is brought up in an argument to bolster the idea of god’s perfection.
I understand that evil is a necessary. However, the degree (amount) of evil present in the world does not justify it. Non-human evil doesn’t justify it.
Furthermore, we may have free will, but our instincts would have to be shaped by a god (if you are arguing for a god). We aren’t all given the same tempraments, and many of us have mental ailments. Psychopaths, paranoid schizophrenics etc. can cause plenty of ‘evil’ and misery. Is it of their own volition? No. They don’t have a great deal of choice.[/quote]
Much of what you are speaking of here is due to sin being introduced into God’s perfect kingdom.
You and I might think it would be a better world, but that was not God’s plan. He didn’t want automatons who blindly worshipped him and were absent of free will.
That is exactly what sin does, it skews the balance of what God wants. It also becomes generational. For example when a child is molested he usually grows up with sever mental problems sometimes actually becoming a child molester. Sin then manifests more sin and we continue to walk away from God and not toward him. Originally we were created with vast amounts of love.
But when sin was introduced to the world it then in many ways became generational as described above.
You have better questions than just about any I’ve ever fielded on this board. I wonder how is love created by not making a creation? Can you love a child that you never had? I think God wanted to create us in order to love us and us him. What a great concept. But then we are back to the point of free will again.
On a side note I think there is far too much self love in our society and not nearly enough self discipline to go with it. We love ourselves so much we think that we deserve self indulgence which if carried too far becomes sin which of course creates pain.
magicpunch :
the concept of evil you are using here is not a christian concept.
if anything, it is a manicheist concept.
and i’m afraid there’s no follower of Mani on this board to debate it with you.
in a christian perspective, evil is not a “thing”. and therefore evil is not in the list of all things God created. strictly speaking, it’s not a part of the Creation and God is not responsible for it.
Evil is not something, but rather the lack of something. lack of Grace, lack of good work, lack of proximity with God.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
[/quote]
God did not create evil, however as I said he gave us (and Satan) free will.[/quote]
God created everything.[/quote]
Evil is the absence of God, a.k.a. you hate God. [/quote]
God is both omnipotent and omniscient. There is no absence of God.[/quote]
…that doesn’t mean that someone can’t hate him. Here this explains it better than I can:
God cannot be at the same time all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing if evil exists.
This mistake is made frequently by people seeking to undermine the foundations of theism. As we shall see, it has no merit because it operates on a false assumption.
The argument goes that the God of theism would want only good for his creatures. Evil exists, though, and so God can have two of the attributes listed above, but not all three. He can be all-powerful and all-loving but not know how to do away with evil. He can be all-loving and all-knowing but unable to do anything about evil. He can be all-powerful and all-knowing but also unwilling to do anything about evil.
By saying God wants only good for his creatures, the anti-theist will mean that God will not want evil to come to them. Yet evidently evil does come to his creatures. This is where the mistake lies. If there is a higher good that God can secure by permitting evil, then he will do so. For the Christian, the higher good that justifies the existence of evil may be the freedom to love.
A brief story will help to illuminate this point. God created a race of beings with no elbows and sat them down at two tables with only very long spoons and loaded the tables with good food to eat. They could not feed themselves because of the strange utensils and their lack of arm joints. The first table cursed God for giving them such wonderful things to eat but depriving them of any means to eat them. The second table, though, discovered that their spoons were just long enough to feed the person sitting across from them. This table discovered loving community based on mutual assistance and praised God both for the wonderful food and for their newfound friends. This would not have happened if God had not given them the obstacle to overcome.
Of course, Godâ??s answer to the problem of evil is not a philosophical demonstration but the passion and death of his Son. Christ, as the ultimate innocent, experienced the ultimate evil in his unjust rejection and execution. If God himself finds evil for love to be a good tradeoff, it should not be too hard for us to swallow.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
Incorrect, God does not sanction evil, he gave us free will, and when God is absent in us (of our own free will) we do evil. [/quote]
Free will is His creation, and the evil that flows from it is also His.[/quote]
No, false assumption. He wants his creations to freely love him. Same with the angels and demons. At the instant of their creation they had a choice, love or hate God. Demons choose to hate God, and angels choose to love God.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.
Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
[/quote]
God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.
Evil = God[/quote]
He gave the Devil and everything else he created free will, you’re making false assumption and you’re not just arguing straw men.
[quote]kamui wrote:
magicpunch :
the concept of evil you are using here is not a christian concept.
if anything, it is a manicheist concept.
and i’m afraid there’s no follower of Mani on this board to debate it with you.
in a christian perspective, evil is not a “thing”. and therefore evil is not in the list of all things God created. strictly speaking, it’s not a part of the Creation and God is not responsible for it.
Evil is not something, but rather the lack of something. lack of Grace, lack of good work, lack of proximity with God.
[/quote]
As cold is the lack of heat. We can’t have self-aware free will without evil. Since evil is simply the absence of the good. We can not learn to love the good, to choose the good (even when it’s the hard thing to do) without being able to NOT do so. When evil is thrown up in my face, usually followed with “Yeah, well why not create us unable to choose anything but good?!”–I find myself horrified at the implication. Is one so lacking in hope, that they’d wish the entire human race into nothing more than a robot? Have they become so depressed, so focused on the evil, that they can’t see the wonder, the beauty, in people using this gift (free will) to accomplish the good? Give me one decent person and this world still has it’s justification for existing.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
justify it[/quote]
It is God’s will, he is most just. I can’t always understand his will, but I can tell it is just.
Look at Katrina, one of the biggest disasters in America, very unjust of that hurricane to do that. Guess what it pulled America together and become a community. A lot of disasters do that, they bring out the good in people charity, community, family, selflessness, &c.
about this “god and evil” issue, a jewish friend of mine used to say this :
“God let us make our own mistakes, for we can learn. if not, He would not be the Father… He would be the Mother”.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.
Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
[/quote]
God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.
Evil = God[/quote]
I never said Satan was a mistake. Are you paying attention? The fact that you think God is evil shows your lack of understanding of the nature of God (if you think some people are complicated you’re in for a shock). God created Satan and gave him free will and Satan chose to do evil and rebel. That makes Satan evil, not God. You can’t quite wrap your arms around the fact that God is a sovereign being. He cannot make a mistake. Before you debate these matters and lead people astray with your lack of knowledge it would be a good idea for you to actually study the Bible. I’m not saying you have to agree with what it says, but at least understand what it says so you are better able to poke holes in it. Because as of right now you’re just looking silly.
[/quote]
God created Satan in every aspect. He gave Satan free will (another of His creations), and knew that Satan would turn to evil (he is God, after all). The evil that springs forth from Satan is a direct result of God.
[quote]kamui wrote:
magicpunch :
the concept of evil you are using here is not a christian concept.
if anything, it is a manicheist concept.
and i’m afraid there’s no follower of Mani on this board to debate it with you.
in a christian perspective, evil is not a “thing”. and therefore evil is not in the list of all things God created. strictly speaking, it’s not a part of the Creation and God is not responsible for it.
Evil is not something, but rather the lack of something. lack of Grace, lack of good work, lack of proximity with God.
[/quote]
God is omniscient and omnipotent. What you are describing is impossible.