If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
Zeb
[/quote]
Hmmm - I have a christian girlfriend, and having known her for the best part of the last few years, I’ve read most of the bible. Granted, not all - but most. And not in a concentrated period. Unfortunately/fortunately, I don’t think it’ll convince me of anything.
I think the point that made me stop believing/praying (and I did that a lot until I was about 22) was that explanations were too contrived, bulky, and too much justification was required for the existance/goodness of god.
That and the fact that I realised that the only reason I believed what I believed was because of where I was born and brought up. You can at least accept that if you were born in Saudi, you’d most likely be a believing muslim.
Not a slight against you, you understand. Just how I see it.
Oh, and final random thought. I do believe that if a god existed (which of course, he might) he’d be equally/more pleased with sceptical people, and as long as people did a bit of searching about their place in this world, existance, suffering etc. it wouldn’t matter one bit what conclusion they came to. That in my mind would please a god more than following a religious text without question. I expect you agree, since you seem to have arrived at your conclusions after thinking about them.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
[/quote]
God did not create evil, however as I said he gave us (and Satan) free will. If he had not given us the ability to choose we would be no better than robots. God seeks our love but does not control us to the point where he makes us love him.
I think I understand your version of things. You don’t think there is a God, or any sort of spiritual life. If I’m wrong forgive me and correct me.
Where does modern man get his concept of God since the Bible is not being read as much as it used to? I honestly think we have a generation brought up watching movies where the good guy swoops in and conquers all and somehow lump God in this weird scenario. And I’ve seen enough of Hollywoods version of God to know that the reality of God is just about as far away from Hollywoods version as one can get.[/quote]
The reality of god? You mean, your ideas/opinions of god based on your interpretation of one popular scripture (amongst many).[/quote]
I decided to study Buddhism and look outside of Christianity in many different directions for the better part of 10 years. Each of us is on a spiritual journey of sorts (even atheists) and must do our own searching and analysis. I have actually never found anything that made more sense than the Christian Bible. And I’ve looked, boy have I looked.
I’m sure our history’s don’t match up exactly, but I think I understand where you’re coming from.
If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
Zeb
[/quote]
Hmmm - I have a christian girlfriend, and having known her for the best part of the last few years, I’ve read most of the bible. Granted, not all - but most. And not in a concentrated period. Unfortunately/fortunately, I don’t think it’ll convince me of anything.[/quote]
Good for you for giving it a try. You are an open minded person who is searching for the truth. That says a lot to me.
Would you mind giving me an example of what you are speaking of?
No question we are products of our environment, both family and culturally. As I said earlier we now life in a culture that applauds science and no longer has the respect it used to for spiritual matters. I understand your rebelling, but you are not yet where you will ultimately be as we all change as we grow.
I have not taken anything that you’ve said as a slight. I grew up in a Catholic home and became a Protestant. My parents were not happy at first but understood. As I said we are all on a spiritual journey of one kind or another they understood that I had to find my own way just as you are doing.
I can agree with much of what you’ve said. Ultimately however it is my belief that there is only one way to God and that is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ great sacrifice on the cross. And this (as Christ said) is a difficult doctrine to accept for many.
Who in your opinion was Jesus Christ? I am always curious about what people think who are still searching.
Thanks for the conversation it’s been interesting.
If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
Zeb
[/quote]
Hmmm - I have a christian girlfriend, and having known her for the best part of the last few years, I’ve read most of the bible. Granted, not all - but most. And not in a concentrated period. Unfortunately/fortunately, I don’t think it’ll convince me of anything.[/quote]
Good for you for giving it a try. You are an open minded person who is searching for the truth. That says a lot to me.
Would you mind giving me an example of what you are speaking of?
No question we are products of our environment, both family and culturally. As I said earlier we now life in a culture that applauds science and no longer has the respect it used to for spiritual matters. I understand your rebelling, but you are not yet where you will ultimately be as we all change as we grow.
I have not taken anything that you’ve said as a slight. I grew up in a Catholic home and became a Protestant. My parents were not happy at first but understood. As I said we are all on a spiritual journey of one kind or another they understood that I had to find my own way just as you are doing.
I can agree with much of what you’ve said. Ultimately however it is my belief that there is only one way to God and that is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ great sacrifice on the cross. And this (as Christ said) is a difficult doctrine to accept for many.
Who in your opinion was Jesus Christ? I am always curious about what people think who are still searching.
Thanks for the conversation it’s been interesting.
Zeb
[/quote]
Lots to answer there. I’ll go through it once I’m at home later on. Yep, the conversation has been interesting.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is.
If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
Zeb
[/quote]
Hmmm - I have a christian girlfriend, and having known her for the best part of the last few years, I’ve read most of the bible. Granted, not all - but most. And not in a concentrated period. Unfortunately/fortunately, I don’t think it’ll convince me of anything.
I think the point that made me stop believing/praying (and I did that a lot until I was about 22) was that explanations were too contrived, bulky, and too much justification was required for the existance/goodness of god.
That and the fact that I realised that the only reason I believed what I believed was because of where I was born and brought up. You can at least accept that if you were born in Saudi, you’d most likely be a believing muslim.
Not a slight against you, you understand. Just how I see it.
Oh, and final random thought. I do believe that if a god existed (which of course, he might) he’d be equally/more pleased with sceptical people, and as long as people did a bit of searching about their place in this world, existance, suffering etc. it wouldn’t matter one bit what conclusion they came to. That in my mind would please a god more than following a religious text without question. I expect you agree, since you seem to have arrived at your conclusions after thinking about them.[/quote]
I’ve never seen the Bible as a good thing to convince people that are not already Christians.
If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.[/quote]
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?
Perhaps to create love itself? How would love ever be manifested in the universe without God first wanting to create beings who would choose to love him (and each other) if their were no free will?
As Hebrews 11:6 states: without faith it is impossible to please God for the one who draws near to Him must believe that He exists and rewards those who seek Him."
I never get involved with those who try to put God under a microscope and demand scientific proof that he exists. Science is science and spiritual faith is spiritual And faith is the very thing that pleases God.
[quote]Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.
Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.[/quote]
I assume you meant “God” where you wrote “good”?
No I don’t think that this is odd at all. Many in your generation are turning their backs on God in spite of their upbringing. We live in the age of knowledge and demand hard scientific facts before we move forward. All I can say is that if you sincerely search for God you will find him. A good place to begin is in the (Christian) Bible. Putting aside all bias open the book and begin reading. But, like any book, read it in its entirety.
Zeb
[/quote]
Hmmm - I have a christian girlfriend, and having known her for the best part of the last few years, I’ve read most of the bible. Granted, not all - but most. And not in a concentrated period. Unfortunately/fortunately, I don’t think it’ll convince me of anything.
I think the point that made me stop believing/praying (and I did that a lot until I was about 22) was that explanations were too contrived, bulky, and too much justification was required for the existance/goodness of god.
That and the fact that I realised that the only reason I believed what I believed was because of where I was born and brought up. You can at least accept that if you were born in Saudi, you’d most likely be a believing muslim.
Not a slight against you, you understand. Just how I see it.
Oh, and final random thought. I do believe that if a god existed (which of course, he might) he’d be equally/more pleased with sceptical people, and as long as people did a bit of searching about their place in this world, existance, suffering etc. it wouldn’t matter one bit what conclusion they came to. That in my mind would please a god more than following a religious text without question. I expect you agree, since you seem to have arrived at your conclusions after thinking about them.[/quote]
I’ve never seen the Bible as a good thing to convince people that are not already Christians.[/quote]
Yeah, I know what you mean, but in a relaxed conversation with someone who is intelligent (as magicpunch has shown himself to be) I just don’t see the problem with speaking from my heart. I honestly think that we sometimes have to go back to the scripture to fully understand how complicated, yet simple it really is.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
Why?[/quote]
Because it must be comforting to know that in the face of all your shortcomings, it’s all going according to some plan. The fear of chaos.[/quote]
Aye, tis true. All too true. My atheist pals all drive with their seat-belts off, on the phone, chain-smoking and gulping booze. They leave their doors unlocked and windows wide open while they go on vacation. They’ll casually take a stroll through the rougher parts of town, waving their money clip back and forth like they just don’t care. With them, there’s no ethical dilemna concerning embryotic stem-cells harvested through destructive means, because they don’t fear death, chaos catching up to them. No vampirism for them, thank you very much.
If tomorrow science could make man immortal it’d need to sterilize humanity before making it available. Otherwise, we’d be standing ontop of each other before long. So, immortality and the end of human reproduction. Who’d oppose it in the largest % of their population? What group would lead the opposition, arguing to allow entropy to catch up with us, and allowing the generations to continue on in our absence? I know where I’d put my money…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I’ve never seen the Bible as a good thing to convince people that are not already Christians.[/quote]
People don’t need convincing.
They need resurrection.
BTW, I actually agree with what you said above about sin. Every last sin there is is a legitimate human drive, created for good by God Himself, gone astray. People autonomously pursuing what can only be satisfied by communion with the creator which is only possible in the shed blood and resurrection life of His only begotten Son. We are saved by His life. Not His death alone. If He is still in that grave then so am I.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
Incorrect, God does not sanction evil, he gave us free will, and when God is absent in us (of our own free will) we do evil.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I’ve never seen the Bible as a good thing to convince people that are not already Christians.[/quote]
People don’t need convincing.
They need resurrection.
BTW, I actually agree with what you said above about sin. Every last sin there is is a legitimate human drive, created for good by God Himself, gone astray. People autonomously pursuing what can only be satisfied by communion with the creator which is only possible in the shed blood and resurrection life of His only begotten Son. We are saved by His life. Not His death alone. If He is still in that grave then so am I.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.
I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]
You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]
God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]
That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.
Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
