Guaranteed Cure for Racism

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 9:02pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Much of what you are speaking of here is due to sin being introduced into God’s perfect kingdom.[/quote]

Sin being introduced into God’s kingdom is His will. Nothing God does can be considered anything less than perfect. Sin is perfectly fine.

[quote]You and I might think it would be a better world, but that was not God’s plan. He didn’t want automatons who blindly worshipped him and were absent of free will.

…

That is exactly what sin does, it skews the balance of what God wants.

…

I think God wanted to create us in order to love us and us him.[/quote]

You cannot judge God by human standards (wants, loves etc). If he did something, there is a reason. You must accept sin as what he wants. He would not introduce anything into his kingdom that isn’t perfect, so why would you not embrace that which MUST be perfect?

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 9:05pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…that doesn’t mean that someone can’t hate him.[/quote]

You said absence of God. I merely pointed out there can be no such thing. I never said anything about the hate.

[quote]Here this explains it better than I can:

God cannot be at the same time all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing if evil exists.

This mistake is made frequently by people seeking to undermine the foundations of theism. As we shall see, it has no merit because it operates on a false assumption.[/quote]

I’m not saying this. I’m saying God must be as you say - all powerful and perfect and good. Therefore the evil he created (God created EVERYTHING) must also be good. You should embrace it.

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 9:07pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No, false assumption. He wants his creations to freely love him. Same with the angels and demons. At the instant of their creation they had a choice, love or hate God. Demons choose to hate God, and angels choose to love God.[/quote]

God does nothing that isn’t perfect. The choices made by the Angels and Demons are still His divine will, so neither is doing anything wrong.

Also, the prattle about wanting love is too human. Stop judging the Lord by your human standards.

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 9:08pm

[quote]kamui wrote:
about this “god and evil” issue, a jewish friend of mine used to say this :

“God let us make our own mistakes, for we can learn. if not, He would not be the Father… He would be the Mother”.[/quote]

Patriarchy and matriarchy. Look them up.

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 9:09pm

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?[/quote]

Perfection needs nothing.

kamui · November 4, 2010, 10:05pm

Makavali,
if you want to use scholastic terminology (omniscient and omnipotent) to criticize christianism, you have to actually understand scholastic ontology and scholastic logic.

in this case, the difference between “esse” and “existare”. “ousia” and “existentia”.

since we are discussing theology in a philosophical way, we have reached a point where you need to think in Latin and/or in Greek to understand what the Church is teaching on the subject.

or you will end up with superficial conclusions and pseudo-logical victories.
even worst than those of a Protestant who reject the tradition and try and read the Book alone. (i’m joking, don’t bite me).

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 10:02pm

[quote]kamui wrote:
Makavali,
if you want to use scholastic terminology (omniscient and omnipotent) to criticize christianism, you have to actually understand scholastic ontology and scholastic logic.[/quote]

Perhaps the majority of Christians should understand it too. The majority that makes decisions via the democratic process aren’t scholars, they are average people with a basic (and according to some posters here, flawed) understanding of Christianity.

If you want to explain Christianity, then don’t use simplistic explanations and then tell people to learn Latin in the third quarter. That reeks of saving something to further an argument, rather than furthering understanding.

Makavali · November 4, 2010, 10:03pm

Also, Kamui is an Ainu divine or spiritual being. Heretic!

kamui · November 4, 2010, 10:19pm

i’m no heretic since i’m not a christian to begin with.

if it sound like i “defend” the christian position in this thread, it’s just because i happen to know a bit of theology.
enough to know that you can’t easily defeat the Church on his own theological playground.

Christians, especially catholics, may be many things, but they are not philosophicaly inconsistent.
The Fathers and Doctors of the Church have had centuries to debate all these points, and they have been served by some of the brightest minds of our civilization. (pagan philosophers included).

ZEB · November 4, 2010, 10:45pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.

I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]

You’re a little off, but close. Concupiscence makes us want to do the material things (drink, smoke, sex, drugs, &c. Now some of that stuff is not inherently evil, however doing it in the wrong situation, or too much is. [/quote]

God creating everything, including the mechanisms for evil, therefore evil is sanctioned by God. It would have been nothing to an omnipotent, omniscient being to create a universe where evil doesn’t exist.[/quote]

That would be creation with restrictions on thought which would not be perfect would it? You also discount the fact that there is a reason for the evil as it is part of his plan. He created a being called Satan with the free will to rebel. The rest as they say is history. Why did he create a being that he knew would sin and rebel? Did he do this because he is imperfect? Or, did he do this because he is perfect? Can God who is sovereign make such a mistake? The answer to this and many other questions can only be found in that one book that you have probably never read and certainly never understood.

Perhaps you’ve read Hamlet while you were avoiding the Bible:

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
[/quote]

God (according to the religious) is perfect. He doesn’t make mistakes, therefore Satan is not a mistake and the evil he represents is not a mistake, but part of God.

Evil = God[/quote]

I never said Satan was a mistake. Are you paying attention? The fact that you think God is evil shows your lack of understanding of the nature of God (if you think some people are complicated you’re in for a shock). God created Satan and gave him free will and Satan chose to do evil and rebel. That makes Satan evil, not God. You can’t quite wrap your arms around the fact that God is a sovereign being. He cannot make a mistake. Before you debate these matters and lead people astray with your lack of knowledge it would be a good idea for you to actually study the Bible. I’m not saying you have to agree with what it says, but at least understand what it says so you are better able to poke holes in it. Because as of right now you’re just looking silly.

[/quote]

God created Satan in every aspect. He gave Satan free will (another of His creations), and knew that Satan would turn to evil (he is God, after all). The evil that springs forth from Satan is a direct result of God.[/quote]

A direct result?

So if I volunteer my time to serve meals to the needy at our local soup kitchen and I happen to park in a certain place. Then a homeless man comes out of the kitchen does not bother to look around my parked car at traffic and walks out in the road and gets killed by a bus. Is that my fault? Or is it the homeless man’s fault because he didn’t look? Or is it the fault of the bus driver because he didn’t see the homeless man? Or, using your reasoning is it the fault of the auto maker who made the car?

As my friends old Italian grandfather used to say “Your logic, she a sucks.”

ZEB · November 4, 2010, 10:46pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Much of what you are speaking of here is due to sin being introduced into God’s perfect kingdom.[/quote]

Sin being introduced into God’s kingdom is His will. Nothing God does can be considered anything less than perfect. Sin is perfectly fine.

[quote]You and I might think it would be a better world, but that was not God’s plan. He didn’t want automatons who blindly worshipped him and were absent of free will.

…

That is exactly what sin does, it skews the balance of what God wants.

…

I think God wanted to create us in order to love us and us him.[/quote]

You cannot judge God by human standards (wants, loves etc). If he did something, there is a reason. You must accept sin as what he wants. He would not introduce anything into his kingdom that isn’t perfect, so why would you not embrace that which MUST be perfect?[/quote]

I do embrace his perfect plan, it is you that feels a need to try to denounce it.

ZEB · November 4, 2010, 10:50pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?[/quote]

Perfection needs nothing.[/quote]

Where did you read that in a chinese fortune cookie? If you have a perfect love does that mean that you need not love anymore because you already have a perfect love?

Makavali · November 5, 2010, 12:19am

[quote]ZEB wrote:
A direct result?

So if I volunteer my time to serve meals to the needy at our local soup kitchen and I happen to park in a certain place. Then a homeless man comes out of the kitchen does not bother to look around my parked car at traffic and walks out in the road and gets killed by a bus. Is that my fault? Or is it the homeless man’s fault because he didn’t look? Or is it the fault of the bus driver because he didn’t see the homeless man? Or, using your reasoning is it the fault of the auto maker who made the car?

As my friends old Italian grandfather used to say “Your logic, she a sucks.”[/quote]

Those circumstances are out of your control and the car makers control. God, however, created EVERYTHING, not just the car.

Makavali · November 5, 2010, 12:19am

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?[/quote]

Perfection needs nothing.[/quote]

Where did you read that in a chinese fortune cookie? If you have a perfect love does that mean that you need not love anymore because you already have a perfect love?
[/quote]

Perfect love does not entail perfect everything, which God is. Therefore, he needs nothing.

Sloth · November 5, 2010, 1:35am

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think this is where you are making your mistake. You’ve posted other things on this thread as well that are not biblically sound. Where does it say that God is “un-needing”?[/quote]

Perfection needs nothing.[/quote]

Where did you read that in a chinese fortune cookie? If you have a perfect love does that mean that you need not love anymore because you already have a perfect love?
[/quote]

Perfect love does not entail perfect everything, which God is. Therefore, he needs nothing.[/quote]

True, and well stated. He does not NEED it. He WANTS it, and has chosen it freely. Out of the mouth of babes sometimes, folks. My man, we’re sending you off to seminary.

Tiribulus · November 5, 2010, 3:02am

The Book of the Acts of the Apostles 17:23ff “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything,”

Brother_Chris · November 5, 2010, 3:53am