Guaranteed Cure for Racism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
381

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]

You are horrible.

Wow.[/quote]

I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]

You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]

It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]

You said you know that there is no God.

[/quote]

Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.[/quote]

Whoever said that God was all of those things?

[/quote]

An absolute ton of people I’ve known. Many christians, quite a few vicars from a couple of local churches.

I’m glad you don’t think god could be any of those things, since such a god would be impossible. Btw, what DO you think characterises god exactly?[/quote]

Why would it be impossible for God to be those things?

382

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Wadda ya tryin to rip a CD into mp3 files?[/quote]

No, already have it on a the computer (bought it from Apple) just g mail won’t let you send anything over 25mb.[/quote]Aha.
You may find this surprising, but I really love Gregorian chant style acapella. Seriously. That must be Latin huh?

383

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Wadda ya tryin to rip a CD into mp3 files?[/quote]

No, already have it on a the computer (bought it from Apple) just g mail won’t let you send anything over 25mb.[/quote]Aha.
You may find this surprising, but I really love Gregorian chant style acapella. Seriously. That must be Latin huh?
[/quote]

Let me have a listen! Please?

384

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Wadda ya tryin to rip a CD into mp3 files?[/quote]

No, already have it on a the computer (bought it from Apple) just g mail won’t let you send anything over 25mb.[/quote]Aha.
You may find this surprising, but I really love Gregorian chant style acapella. Seriously. That must be Latin huh?
[/quote]

Let me have a listen! Please?[/quote]I will consolidate his files and put them on my server as soon as I can

385

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Wadda ya tryin to rip a CD into mp3 files?[/quote]

No, already have it on a the computer (bought it from Apple) just g mail won’t let you send anything over 25mb.[/quote]Aha.
You may find this surprising, but I really love Gregorian chant style acapella. Seriously. That must be Latin huh?
[/quote]

Yes, most chant is from the Psalms, so not many people have problems with it. Little history for you, the Jews would sing/pray the 150 psalms everyday (as I am sure you know), well the illiterate would memorize the 150 Psalms since they couldn’t read. The monks continued this tradition, except some of them did it all day.

The illiterate still had problems with being able to chant the psalms because of memorization of a 150 psalms is quite an ordeal. So, the monks had these beads that would help them keep count of their prayers (150 beads and a cross) they had short prayers that the illiterate could chant instead of the 150 psalms. For some it turned into the Rosary and in the east it turned into prayer ropes with either 100 beads, 50, or 33 beads.

386

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Wadda ya tryin to rip a CD into mp3 files?[/quote]

No, already have it on a the computer (bought it from Apple) just g mail won’t let you send anything over 25mb.[/quote]Aha.
You may find this surprising, but I really love Gregorian chant style acapella. Seriously. That must be Latin huh?
[/quote]

Let me have a listen! Please?[/quote]

Send me your e-mail and I’ll drop you the cd.

387

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I don’t buy the “sacrifice” part.

It isn’t a sacrifice/big deal if you:

a) rise up from it three days later and;
b) go sit around in heaven

He so loved us that he sacrificed his only son? Nah mate, true sacrifice would’ve been if he’d stayed dead (since sacrifice implies a loss). But the big guy in the sky knew that JC would rise again … so he wasn’t in fact sacrificing anything.

Wolverine doesn’t sacrifice himself, because he knows he’ll regenerate. Same goes for your guy.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is the dumbest shit I have heard when it comes to talking theology of the sacrifice. coughstraw mancough[/quote]

Bettered only by the convoluted concept of this sacrifice. Of course I’m going to sound dumb when discussing this god’s sacrifice.

Please, elaborate on the sacrifice, what makes it a sacrifice and what kind of mental gymnastics are required to buttress and make the idea palatable.

For the record, not a muslim here. Used to be though.

388

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I certainly know that a christian god can’t exist. Also severely hope that a muslim god doesn’t exist…[/quote]

How do you know that?

[/quote]

Because the people of the book have corrupted the book! Of course, and Jesus was a Muslim 600 years before Muslims existed, and so was Abram…and Moses![/quote]

What does this even mean? I love your assumption that I must be proseltysing on behalf of muslims worldwide. As far as I’m concerned, the muslims adopted a new ‘holy’ book on the back of other ‘holy’ books to help people understand the world in x/y ways.

The divine has so far failed to materialise.

Do you believe the bible to be the word of god? Is it divinely inspired? Or is it the product of merely human minds?

389

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I certainly know that a christian god can’t exist. Also severely hope that a muslim god doesn’t exist…[/quote]

How do you know that?

[/quote]

Because the people of the book have corrupted the book! Of course, and Jesus was a Muslim 600 years before Muslims existed, and so was Abram…and Moses![/quote]

What does this even mean? I love your assumption that I must be proseltysing on behalf of muslims worldwide. As far as I’m concerned, the muslims adopted a new ‘holy’ book on the back of other ‘holy’ books to help people understand the world in x/y ways.

The divine has so far failed to materialise.

Do you believe the bible to be the word of god? Is it divinely inspired? Or is it the product of merely human minds?[/quote]I believe this:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

390

This entire thread has led to a question I’ve always had. Do you think that so many people would complain about illegal immigration if it came from the Canadian border? I’ve just always found, as a Christian, it was a little hypocritical to not reach out to a group of people in need as the Mexicans clearly are. If you’re ever in question about who could benefit from the Gospel, just look to the most down trodden or depraved members of society.

391

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know you don’t really wanna pound this old ground again Ephrem. Even dead men can intellectually grasp the oft reiterated concept that the Word did not become flesh and dwell among us to “bring all men together”. The Gospel is exclusive and narrow. In that you are correct. Jesus Himself said so and so have I one million times.

Remember? Two species of mankind? One dead in the first man Adam and one made alive together in the last? All men born dead? Spiritually stillborn if you will? Some are born again into newness of life by being made partakers of the resurrected Christ Himself? Come on you remember.

The point is, where Jesus Christ reigns in the hearts of men, racism does not and indeed CANNOT exist. Where there is racism, there Christ is not. Just like where there is terrorism, perversion or anything else unbiblical, there also Christ is not. People can claim whatever they want. It occurred to me as I am A man in very great need of fellowship and support right now that these very black people are there though I am white as the wind driven snow. We don’t see each other as white and black. Only as brothers and sisters. So ya’ll can post whatever academic sludge you please. I stand by my position.[/quote]

God is omnipresent, therefore everywhere, so how can christ not be inside everyone?? I know that’s a really old post but your argument makes no sense. I’m a complete atheist and yet am not racist, yet no doubt some christians are racist. I’d also like you to explain the bibles attitude to homosexuality, which is pretty damn intolerant. Oh, and please explain the problem of evil. Cheers.

392

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]

You are horrible.

Wow.[/quote]

I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]

You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]

It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]

You said you know that there is no God.

[/quote]

Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.[/quote]

Whoever said that God was all of those things?

[/quote]

An absolute ton of people I’ve known. Many christians, quite a few vicars from a couple of local churches.

I’m glad you don’t think god could be any of those things, since such a god would be impossible. Btw, what DO you think characterises god exactly?[/quote]

Why would it be impossible for God to be those things?[/quote]

One reason is the inconistent triad. According to Christianity, God is omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (All Knowing) and Omnibenevolent (All good). And yet shit just doesn’t add up. If God is all powerful, all knowing and good, why does he allow evil to exist? He knows about it, can stop it, and wants to stop it (as he’s good), yet doesn’t, as there is clearly evil and suffering in the world. And before you go on about man made evil and how it’s free will, a major problem with that argument is the existence of natural evil, for example disease and natural disasters. If god is perfect/good, how can he create something imperfect and flawed? This goes for man too. That’s a very watered down version of the problem of evil but i studied it a while ago and can’t be fucked to find my book to look it up again.

393

[quote]
One reason is the inconistent triad. According to Christianity, God is omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (All Knowing) and Omnibenevolent (All good). And yet shit just doesn’t add up. If God is all powerful, all knowing and good, why does he allow evil to exist? He knows about it, can stop it, and wants to stop it (as he’s good), yet doesn’t, as there is clearly evil and suffering in the world. And before you go on about man made evil and how it’s free will, a major problem with that argument is the existence of natural evil, for example disease and natural disasters. If god is perfect/good, how can he create something imperfect and flawed? This goes for man too.[/quote]

I will try, as an exercice in style, to defend the christian conception, even if it’s not mine.

the story of Genesis answers most of your concerns about the omnibenevolence of God.

it states that the Creation was initially perfect.
there were no evil, no murder, no death, no disaster.
God actually did what an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would do, in your opinion. a World without evil.

but we wanted to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
we wanted to Know…

and in order to actually know Good, you must first learn its opposite : Evil.

we have thus fallen from eternity to history and we have to live in a finite and imperfect world.

if the story ended there, we might say the God is not omnibenevolent, and may even be evil.

but it doesn’t end there. and you should wait the end of the world’s story before you can judge it.

Christians think that this finite and imperfect world is not eternal.
we have to suffer it until the end of times. but in the End of times, Creation will be perfected again.

then, there will be no more evil.

and think about it :
who is the best Father ? the Father who use his omnipotence and prevent his children to do anything wrong or the Father who follow his benevolence and teach his children how to do everything right ?

you may not accept this story. but you can’t say the christians are inconsistent.
they aren’t.

394

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]

You are horrible.

Wow.[/quote]

I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]

You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]

It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]

You said you know that there is no God.

[/quote]

Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.[/quote]

Whoever said that God was all of those things?

[/quote]

An absolute ton of people I’ve known. Many christians, quite a few vicars from a couple of local churches.

I’m glad you don’t think god could be any of those things, since such a god would be impossible. Btw, what DO you think characterises god exactly?[/quote]

It matters not who thinks this is true, I don’t see where it says that in the Bible. Anyone can have an opinion.

395

[quote]Puddle wrote:
If God is all powerful, all knowing and good, why does he allow evil to exist? He knows about it, can stop it, and wants to stop it (as he’s good), yet doesn’t, as there is clearly evil and suffering in the world. And before you go on about man made evil and how it’s free will, a major problem with that argument is the existence of natural evil, for example disease and natural disasters. If god is perfect/good, how can he create something imperfect and flawed? This goes for man too. That’s a very watered down version of the problem of evil but i studied it a while ago and can’t be fucked to find my book to look it up again.
[/quote]

All good questions and fair to ask. I think answers can be found in the Bible. When sin came into the world (from free will) disease also entered. I also think there is an affect regarding “natural disasters” as well. As the Bible clearly states that as man falls further from the grace of God, as we are now doing, there will be more earth quakes and and other such calamities.

Also, one more word about free will. How can a perfect God who wants others to live in love create a world full of robots who have no choice whether to love him? That would not be a loving God. When you have free will you have the freedom to choose. That is what makes your decision so powerful. This is my take on what I’ve read, I am not a Bible scholar just a guy who is trying to make sense of this world, not unlike you. But I’ve found some very satisfying answers within the pages of the Bible. I might also add that when I was in my 20’s and even early 30’s I questioned everything and believed practically nothing. I think it’s natural for a thinking man to go through various stages. I can only say that at this stage in my life I’ve seen so much that I know in my heart that there is a God and I also know that you (and I) are not nearly as smart as we’d like to think we are. That can be humbling when it finally hits.

Zeb

396

What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.

I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.

397

[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.

I can see why people would want to believe this tripe.[/quote]

Why?

398

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Puddle wrote:
If God is all powerful, all knowing and good, why does he allow evil to exist? He knows about it, can stop it, and wants to stop it (as he’s good), yet doesn’t, as there is clearly evil and suffering in the world. And before you go on about man made evil and how it’s free will, a major problem with that argument is the existence of natural evil, for example disease and natural disasters. If god is perfect/good, how can he create something imperfect and flawed? This goes for man too. That’s a very watered down version of the problem of evil but i studied it a while ago and can’t be fucked to find my book to look it up again.
[/quote]

All good questions and fair to ask. I think answers can be found in the Bible. When sin came into the world (from free will) disease also entered. I also think there is an affect regarding “natural disasters” as well. As the Bible clearly states that as man falls further from the grace of God, as we are now doing, there will be more earth quakes and and other such calamities.

Also, one more word about free will. How can a perfect God who wants others to live in love create a world full of robots who have no choice whether to love him? That would not be a loving God. When you have free will you have the freedom to choose. That is what makes your decision so powerful. This is my take on what I’ve read, I am not a Bible scholar just a guy who is trying to make sense of this world, not unlike you. But I’ve found some very satisfying answers within the pages of the Bible. I might also add that when I was in my 20’s and even early 30’s I questioned everything and believed practically nothing. I think it’s natural for a thinking man to go through various stages. I can only say that at this stage in my life I’ve seen so much that I know in my heart that there is a God and I also know that you (and I) are not nearly as smart as we’d like to think we are. That can be humbling when it finally hits.

Zeb
[/quote]

If God were perfect and un-needing, he would not need to alter/change anything. He would thus not need to even create man. He would just be.

The fact that he WANTS to create someone to love, or to love him, implies that he’s needy. That he needs something external to him. And yes, we are external to him, for we have, as you claim, free will.

I’m glad you said that you know of a god in your heart. Glad you aren’t suggesting that there is incontrovertible evidence for his existance. I have no problem with anyone believing in a god, because the possibility is even there.

Incidentally, I’ve believed in a good nearly all my life. Even now, I suppose I would say that I believe in one. However, I know that this is through conditioning (upbringing) and so am also able to justify my non-belief in him.

Mindfuck? Yes. I’m a believing atheist. Believer by habit, atheist by thinking.

399

[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.

[/quote]

God did not create evil, however as I said he gave us (and Satan) free will. If he had not given us the ability to choose we would be no better than robots. God seeks our love but does not control us to the point where he makes us love him.

I think I understand your version of things. You don’t think there is a God, or any sort of spiritual life. If I’m wrong forgive me and correct me.

Where does modern man get his concept of God since the Bible is not being read as much as it used to? I honestly think we have a generation brought up watching movies where the good guy swoops in and conquers all and somehow lump God in this weird scenario. And I’ve seen enough of Hollywoods version of God to know that the reality of God is just about as far away from Hollywoods version as one can get.

400

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
What you call evil is Gods creation, even free will is a creation of God. When men act evil, they act as God made them.

[/quote]

God did not create evil, however as I said he gave us (and Satan) free will. If he had not given us the ability to choose we would be no better than robots. God seeks our love but does not control us to the point where he makes us love him.

I think I understand your version of things. You don’t think there is a God, or any sort of spiritual life. If I’m wrong forgive me and correct me.

Where does modern man get his concept of God since the Bible is not being read as much as it used to? I honestly think we have a generation brought up watching movies where the good guy swoops in and conquers all and somehow lump God in this weird scenario. And I’ve seen enough of Hollywoods version of God to know that the reality of God is just about as far away from Hollywoods version as one can get.[/quote]

The reality of god? You mean, your ideas/opinions of god based on your interpretation of one popular scripture (amongst many).