[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I don’t buy the “sacrifice” part.
It isn’t a sacrifice/big deal if you:
a) rise up from it three days later and;
b) go sit around in heaven
He so loved us that he sacrificed his only son? Nah mate, true sacrifice would’ve been if he’d stayed dead (since sacrifice implies a loss). But the big guy in the sky knew that JC would rise again … so he wasn’t in fact sacrificing anything.
Wolverine doesn’t sacrifice himself, because he knows he’ll regenerate. Same goes for your guy.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but this is the dumbest shit I have heard when it comes to talking theology of the sacrifice. coughstraw mancough
I know you’re really hung up on that child dying in two years story. But what God knows and what you and I know are chasms apart. There could be any one of hundreds of reasons why God did not grant the prayer of the couple who had the child. Maybe he would have grown up to be a serial killer? Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was? Maybe the way the couple acts after the child dies wills serve as strong testimony to God? Maybe 1000 other things. That’s where faith comes in my friend.
Try to compare it to a child who wants very much to play in a certain area but his father keeps telling him not to go there. The child doesn’t realize his father knows better. The child does not have the wisdom of his father and there is no way he’ll ever understand why he can’t play in the middle of a freeway, as he sees no harm in it just fun.
If you think you have the brain power to understand the mind of God think again. As the Bible says “his ways are not our ways.” Many times God has a different plan taking place above and beyond any particular man made plan. Once again, that’s why they call it faith, you have it or you don’t. And without faith it is not only impossible to please God, but also impossible to stop second guessing him as well.
Take care,
Zeb
[/quote]
Come on!
Claiming that ‘what god knows compared to what we know is chasms apart’, doesn’t work.
How can you know that God knows more than we, without knowing what he knows?
Furthermore, if his ways are not our ways, then it is entirely possible that he is what we could describe as heartless/uncaring or downright nasty with a habit of toying with humans for his own perverse pleasure.
[/quote]
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
Nope, not read the entire thing, and I don’t need to. Used to be a devout muslim, and had read every word of the Quran.
Have studied many aspects of it through my history class and attending divinity lectures.
Knowing and believing are two entirely different things. You can believe in something without knowing that it exists. I believe in a god, but this is purely because I was brought up to. Do I KNOW god exists? Nope - I’m almost certain he/she doesn’t, and I certainly know that a christian god can’t exist. Also severely hope that a muslim god doesn’t exist…
By the way, what does faith have to do with the bible?[/quote]
I’m going to say that this is about as backwards as you can get to making a logical argument.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
I certainly know that a christian god can’t exist. Also severely hope that a muslim god doesn’t exist…[/quote]
How do you know that?
[/quote]
Because the people of the book have corrupted the book! Of course, and Jesus was a Muslim 600 years before Muslims existed, and so was Abram…and Moses!
[quote]Makavali wrote:
The case he put forward specifically mentioned a hole in the heart (presumably Atrial Septal Defect) and Down syndrome.
What causes those?
Oh right, Down syndrome is genetic, and ASD is a known to occur in children with Down Syndrome.
Again, you are fucking horrible.[/quote]
You didn’t even read the material that I posted. A congenital defect can be caused by a multitude of things. ONE of those things can indeed be the use of certain drugs:
Here you go I’ll post it here so you don’t have to go digging, I know that can be time consuming I’ve been there:
There are many other reputable web sites which state the same thing. Really why are we even having this conversation? A mother can indeed effect the health of her baby by her actions. Many people are quick to blame God when in fact what is happening is of their own doing.[/quote]
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]
You are horrible.
Wow.[/quote]
I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]
You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]
It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.
You can’t possibly convince anyone that you KNOW he exists (since if you can know, then you must be able to demonstrate how you know this). Note, I didn’t say “believe” I said “know”
If you refer to faith, I’ll punch you through the screen.
PS. By the way, it also depends on how you define your god’s characteristics. Is he omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent? If he’s all these things, then he definitely doesn’t exist. The problem of evil (very simple!) deals with the issue.
Don’t give me:
a) god works in mysterious ways
b) he has a plan
c) it might FEEL painful, horrible, but it is just love
[quote]Makavali wrote:
The case he put forward specifically mentioned a hole in the heart (presumably Atrial Septal Defect) and Down syndrome.
What causes those?
Oh right, Down syndrome is genetic, and ASD is a known to occur in children with Down Syndrome.
Again, you are fucking horrible.[/quote]
You didn’t even read the material that I posted. A congenital defect can be caused by a multitude of things. ONE of those things can indeed be the use of certain drugs:
Here you go I’ll post it here so you don’t have to go digging, I know that can be time consuming I’ve been there:
There are many other reputable web sites which state the same thing. Really why are we even having this conversation? A mother can indeed effect the health of her baby by her actions. Many people are quick to blame God when in fact what is happening is of their own doing.[/quote]
It’s like talking to a 4 year old.[/quote]
That’s what you’re good at. You should stick to it rather than look at the facts. Good boy.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]
You are horrible.
Wow.[/quote]
I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]
You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]
It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]
You are horrible.
Wow.[/quote]
I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]
You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]
It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]
You said you know that there is no God.
[/quote]
Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.
Now, just a God (ie creator etc) could very well exist. Chances are low, but I’ll never say never.
However, where’s your evidence for the existence of your god? Burden of proof’s on you. Before christians began telling us about jesus, we atheists didn’t have any such concept of god to “disprove” as such.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]
You are horrible.
Wow.[/quote]
I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]
You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]
It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]
You said you know that there is no God.
[/quote]
Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.[/quote]
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.[/quote]
…somethings off in this statement. Not sure though…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.[/quote]
…somethings off in this statement. Not sure though… ;)[/quote]I can’t tell if you’re joking or trying to catch me in something. Just got back though. What an awesome time. It flew by. I was right too. Several dozen men, women and children, all different ages shapes, sizes and ethnic backgrounds, but all anybody cared about was the fact that the God who holds all of the ever expanding cosmos on the tip of His little finger (so to speak) was there in our midst.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.[/quote]
…somethings off in this statement. Not sure though… ;)[/quote]I can’t tell if you’re joking or trying to catch me in something. Just got back though. What an awesome time. It flew by. I was right too. Several dozen men, women and children, all different ages shapes, sizes and ethnic backgrounds, but all anybody cared about was the fact that the God who holds all of the ever expanding cosmos on the tip of His little finger (so to speak) was there in our midst.
[/quote]
Just thought it was funny you pointed out your non-racism.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.[/quote]
…somethings off in this statement. Not sure though… ;)[/quote]I can’t tell if you’re joking or trying to catch me in something. Just got back though. What an awesome time. It flew by. I was right too. Several dozen men, women and children, all different ages shapes, sizes and ethnic backgrounds, but all anybody cared about was the fact that the God who holds all of the ever expanding cosmos on the tip of His little finger (so to speak) was there in our midst.
[/quote]
Just thought it was funny you pointed out your non-racism. [/quote]Ok, but that’s what this thread is about. Actually I was pointing out the non racism of the group. I guess I’m just not getting what is funny. Not that it’s bad you see it that way.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Off to all night prayer with a couple Puerto Riccans, a few other white people, at least one Arab and a whoooole lotta black folks. There will be no racism there. The Father Son and Holy Spirit will be there however. I have a long list from this site. All different reasons in a few categories. The so called atheists can continue their march of intellectualism while I’m basking in His glorious loving presence. Be back in the morning.[/quote]
…somethings off in this statement. Not sure though… ;)[/quote]I can’t tell if you’re joking or trying to catch me in something. Just got back though. What an awesome time. It flew by. I was right too. Several dozen men, women and children, all different ages shapes, sizes and ethnic backgrounds, but all anybody cared about was the fact that the God who holds all of the ever expanding cosmos on the tip of His little finger (so to speak) was there in our midst.
[/quote]
Just thought it was funny you pointed out your non-racism. [/quote]Ok, but that’s what this thread is about. Actually I was pointing out the non racism of the group. I guess I’m just not getting what is funny. Not that it’s bad you see it that way.
No, I just never saw non-racist people point out that they were not-racists. Just thought it was funny. If I can get this music into a CD in a file, I have some music for you too.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Maybe the mother and father did things to their bodies (against Gods will) that directly caused this child to be born as he was?[/quote]
You are horrible.
Wow.[/quote]
I thought about responding to him, but concluded that he must have been joking. No one can actually believe that surely? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt - hopefully he’ll explain that it was just a shit joke.[/quote]
You need to get busy and explain how you know that there is no “Christian God”. Or is that a joke?[/quote]
It is impossible for me to KNOW that something vaguely defined doesn’t exist. I can’t possibly know that the christian god doesn’t exist.[/quote]
You said you know that there is no God.
[/quote]
Let me alter what I said before. The god who is omnibenevolent/potent/scient/present (ie as defined by many christians) cannot exist. The state of the world attests to that.[/quote]
Whoever said that God was all of those things?
[/quote]
An absolute ton of people I’ve known. Many christians, quite a few vicars from a couple of local churches.
I’m glad you don’t think god could be any of those things, since such a god would be impossible. Btw, what DO you think characterises god exactly?
