it’s true
but you can say exactly the same thing about theism.
in itself it’s only a metaphysical position, not an ethical or moral one
there is quite a few immoral and amoral god(s) out there.
so, if we want to speak about ethic and morality we have to speak about specific philosophies / religions.
and to refute atheism itself (ie : all kind of atheism), we would have to do it on a metaphysical ground.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Because it is truth. And I willingly submit myself to that which is true.[/quote]
…thanks for answering the question Chris… [/quote]
What? I actually answered YOUR question and you said I didn’t. He’s answering a different question and you say thanks?
Your question was about how I could willingy submit to my faith, but complain about government policies.
[/quote]
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[/quote]
I answered that one! When we want to participate socially, we always subdue ourselves! That was the point of mentioning waiting in line, instead of cutting. Minding the softball coach and your fellow players. Not standing up and putting on your own impromptu lecture over the lecturer at a seminar. You asked the question as if their was any other way to participate in a social setting (besides acting like a loon, only to get escorted out). I chose to be catholic, to particpate in catholic social settings, so I submit.
[quote]kamui wrote:
so, if we want to speak about ethic and morality we have to speak about specific philosophies / religions.
[/quote]
No doubt. I don’t view all religions the same. Some have incompatible moral and theological components relative to each other.
Atheism, though, only deals with the lack of belief in the divine. That was all I was pointing out.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Nope, no question. You have pretty much divulged your ignorance, yes certainly I’m sure all atheists don’t care about people getting killed. brilliant
[/quote]
Um, he’s objectively correct. Atheism isn’t a system of ethics or morality. It’s only concerned with the existence (or more accurately, the non-existence) of god(s).[/quote]
Maybe I am being dense here but if atheism is merely the lack of belief in the divine then how do you make the conclusion that therefore all atheists don’t care if you kill people. I’m sure there are some that don’t and plenty that do. I am not one so I don’t know how every person that feels that way (atheism) feels about people killing each other but I would assume many would have a problem with that. So to categorically put them in a group that doesn’t care seems illogical, it’s like saying everyone that doesn’t believe in the tooth fairy doesn’t care if people go about killing each other in the name of their faith/philosophy.
i do care if you kill peoplebut not because i’m an atheist but because of my moral code.
this moral code is fully compatible with my atheism but it is not directly implied by it.
on the other hands christians do care if you kill christian because they are christians. since christianism is a moral code in and by itself.
see the difference ?
[quote]kamui wrote:
i do care if you kill peoplebut not because i’m an atheist but because of my moral code.
this moral code is fully compatible with my atheism but it is not directly implied by it.
on the other hands christians do care if you kill christian because they are christians. since christianism is a moral code in and by itself.
see the difference ?[/quote]
I do except that isn’t what he said and history has proven the christian church wrong on that. Individual followers no doubt, christianity as a movement—not so much
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[/quote]
I answered that one! When we want to participate socially, we always subdue ourselves! That was the point of mentioning waiting in line, instead of cutting. Minding the softball coach and your fellow players. Not standing up and putting on your own impromptu lecture over the lecturer at a seminar. You asked the question as if their was any other way to participate in a social setting (besides acting like a loon, only to get escorted out). I chose to be catholic, to particpate in catholic social settings, so I submit. [/quote]
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
I am not saying that atheist are not moral or that Christians are moral. I am saying the different philosophies have two different moral/ethical codes. Christians have Natural Law and most atheists have utilitarianism.
I have met atheists that are morally superior to some Christians. I have met Jews, Muslims, and Pagans that are probably morally superior to some Christians. What I am pointing out is that the default moral code of atheist is of the utilitarian kind, while the default (at least for Catholics) is Natural Law.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[/quote]
I answered that one! When we want to participate socially, we always subdue ourselves! That was the point of mentioning waiting in line, instead of cutting. Minding the softball coach and your fellow players. Not standing up and putting on your own impromptu lecture over the lecturer at a seminar. You asked the question as if their was any other way to participate in a social setting (besides acting like a loon, only to get escorted out). I chose to be catholic, to particpate in catholic social settings, so I submit. [/quote]
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
[/quote]
Wait…so not being a sociopath is now “insincere”? He has a point. To be a part of ANY social setting requires you to subdue some of your own initial desires, thoughts and/or actions. To deny this is juvenile and to speak down to someone because they acknowledge it doesn’t exactly make you out to be a genius. Some might even call it discipline.
Outside of that, I “submit” myself to the belief in a higher power because I do not believe man to be his own God. I do not do it to “fit in”.
Why do you “submit” yourself to the belief that you have no existential consequences on a universal scale for the life that you live?
Further, why do the atheists here spend so much time trying to speak down to those who believe in God?
I just don’t see that many of you who appear to be so intelligent as to warrant the attitude.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[/quote]
I answered that one! When we want to participate socially, we always subdue ourselves! That was the point of mentioning waiting in line, instead of cutting. Minding the softball coach and your fellow players. Not standing up and putting on your own impromptu lecture over the lecturer at a seminar. You asked the question as if their was any other way to participate in a social setting (besides acting like a loon, only to get escorted out). I chose to be catholic, to particpate in catholic social settings, so I submit. [/quote]
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
[/quote]
Wait…so not being a sociopath is now “insincere”? He has a point. To be a part of ANY social setting requires you to subdue some of your own initial desires, thoughts and/or actions. To deny this is juvenile and to speak down to someone because they acknowledge it doesn’t exactly make you out to be a genius. Some might even call it discipline.
Outside of that, I “submit” myself to the belief in a higher power because I do not believe man to be his own God. I do not do it to “fit in”.
Why do you “submit” yourself to the belief that you have no existential consequences on a universal scale for the life that you live?
Further, why do the atheists here spend so much time trying to speak down to those who believe in God?
I just don’t see that many of you who appear to be so intelligent as to warrant the attitude.[/quote]
…if it’s the only reason why a person follows a certain religion; to fit in socially, is to me a sign of a weak mind. For me personally, there’s no belief to submit to, no social framework wherein my absence of beliefs are reaffirmed by likeminded people…
…i’m not compelled by social contracts to behave a certain way. I’m compelled to behave socially in a way that suits me, and i base that behaviour on what i deem acceptable. The mindset that conforms to a predetermined social behaviour is foreign to me…
…and FYI, this is a forumboard meant for discussion. You may take your high horse somewhere else if you feel inclined to do so…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
[/quote]
Of course I want to fit in…I didn’t accept Catholicism so that I could stand before the laity, talking over the Father, and redefine the church into a bird watching club. Prof. X, who owes me no favors, believe me, said it exactly right. In this attempt to take an immature dig, you’re implying that humanity is, or at least should be, made up of sociopaths.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i’m not compelled by social contracts to behave a certain way. I’m compelled to behave socially in a way that suits me…
[/quote]
Let me guess, you just happen to not have full blown conversation whiles attending a dissapointing movie at the theater.
You just happen to like waiting in lines.
You’ll eat, drink, smoke whatever you want, during a lecture. Let instructor/lecturer be damned! Fortunately, you just happen to follow the rules.
You’d run bases in reverse, kick the ball into your own goal, shoot pool balls into hoops…no, those happen to be your own personal rules. Heck, we’re all fortunate that you don’t call baseball ‘soccer’, and soccer ‘basketball.’ We got lucky that you happened to choose the same labels as you, for the same sport. Talking sports with ya, could get damn confusing.
You join bridge clubs, and break out a chess board. You wear beach casual to the interview, when you’d been asked to dress business-casual. You show up to a family’s birthday and wish them a blessed 20th Easter.
You are, the most interesting man in the world.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
[/quote]
Of course I want to fit in…I didn’t accept Catholicism so that I could stand before the laity, talking over the Father, and redefine the church into a bird watching club. Prof. X, who owes me no favors, believe me, said it exactly right. In this attempt to take an immature dig, you’re implying that humanity is, or at least should be, made up of sociopaths.[/quote]
…don’t get me wrong Sloth, i’m serious. One isn’t automatically a sociopath for not falling in line what religion is concerned. It simply goes to show that our respective societies are very different from another. Ofcourse there are pockets of religious fundamentalism in the Netherlands, but on a whole, choosing to follow or not follow a religion is not a big deal [socially]…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i’m not compelled by social contracts to behave a certain way. I’m compelled to behave socially in a way that suits me…
[/quote]
Let me guess, you just happen to not have full blown conversation whiles attending a dissapointing movie at the theater.[/quote]
…no, i’ll leave the theater…
[quote]You just happen to like waiting in lines.
You’ll eat, drink, smoke whatever you want, during a lecture. Let instructor/lecturer be damned! Fortunately, you just happen to follow the rules.[/quote]
…these examples do not possess the same social impact religion has, nor do these examples possess the same value many believers attach to their religion…
[quote]You’d run bases in reverse, kick the ball into your own goal, shoot pool balls into hoops…no, those happen to be your own personal rules. Heck, we’re all fortunate that you don’t call baseball ‘soccer’, and soccer ‘basketball.’ We got lucky that you happened to choose the same labels as you, for the same sport. Talking sports with ya, could get damn confusing.
You join bridge clubs, and break out a chess board. You wear beach casual to the interview, when you’d been asked to dress business-casual. You show up to a family’s birthday and wish them a blessed 20th Easter.
You are, the most interesting man in the world.[/quote]
…i don’t play games i don’t like, even if that means watching from the sidelines when everyone else is playing. I thoroughly dislike birthday parties and often just make an appearance and then flee…
…i don’t doubt that you enjoy your religion and religious gettogethers, or just don’t mind them. Surely you wouldn’t go if you’d rather be doing something else, would you?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
choosing to follow or not follow a religion is not a big deal [socially]…
[/quote]
None cared before I was a Catholic, noone cared afterwards. For the community around me, my conversion was a complete non-event. On the job, the only people who’ve ever questioned me about my faith were atheists.
As for your own locale [quote]choosing to follow…a religion is not a big deal[/quote]…well you don’t really represent that attitude. It may be true, but I wouldn’t pick that up from your example.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
choosing to follow or not follow a religion is not a big deal [socially]…
[/quote]
None cared before I was a Catholic, noone cared afterwards. For the community around me, my conversion was a complete non-event. On the job, the only people who’ve ever questioned me about my faith were atheists.
As for your own locale [quote]choosing to follow…a religion is not a big deal[/quote]…well you don’t really represent that attitude. It may be true, but I wouldn’t pick that up from your example.[/quote]
…i don’t question your motives just for a laugh. I ask you to explain yourself about these things to gain a better understanding of a mindset that’s different from my own. And that’s all i’ve been doing in almost every thread on PWI…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[/quote]
I answered that one! When we want to participate socially, we always subdue ourselves! That was the point of mentioning waiting in line, instead of cutting. Minding the softball coach and your fellow players. Not standing up and putting on your own impromptu lecture over the lecturer at a seminar. You asked the question as if their was any other way to participate in a social setting (besides acting like a loon, only to get escorted out). I chose to be catholic, to particpate in catholic social settings, so I submit. [/quote]
…that’s the reason: to fit in? I’d say that’s a flimsy reason, or even be as bold in saying it’s insincere…
[/quote]
Wait…so not being a sociopath is now “insincere”? He has a point. To be a part of ANY social setting requires you to subdue some of your own initial desires, thoughts and/or actions. To deny this is juvenile and to speak down to someone because they acknowledge it doesn’t exactly make you out to be a genius. Some might even call it discipline.
Outside of that, I “submit” myself to the belief in a higher power because I do not believe man to be his own God. I do not do it to “fit in”.
Why do you “submit” yourself to the belief that you have no existential consequences on a universal scale for the life that you live?
Further, why do the atheists here spend so much time trying to speak down to those who believe in God?
I just don’t see that many of you who appear to be so intelligent as to warrant the attitude.[/quote]
…if it’s the only reason why a person follows a certain religion; to fit in socially, is to me a sign of a weak mind. For me personally, there’s no belief to submit to, no social framework wherein my absence of beliefs are reaffirmed by likeminded people…
…i’m not compelled by social contracts to behave a certain way. I’m compelled to behave socially in a way that suits me, and i base that behaviour on what i deem acceptable. The mindset that conforms to a predetermined social behaviour is foreign to me…
…and FYI, this is a forumboard meant for discussion. You may take your high horse somewhere else if you feel inclined to do so…
[/quote]
What high horse? I am not the one trying to degrade someone else’s beliefs. YOU ARE. I am simply noting that I do NOT see all of the geniuses walking around who warrant such an attitude.
If you can’t hang with the debate, maybe YOU should exit stage left.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…no, i’ll leave the theater…[/quote]
Why would someone who does not conform to social constructs simply leave the theater? Do you do so quietly? Why?
[quote]
…these examples do not possess the same social impact religion has, nor do these examples possess the same value many believers attach to their religion…[/quote]
Bullshit. Those examples are all showing that you DO subdue yourself quite a bit to be a part of society.
Wait, so at your job, you simply ENJOY every single task asked of you and aren’t doing such because of any social obligation required to keep that job?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t question your motives just for a laugh. I ask you to explain yourself about these things to gain a better understanding of a mindset that’s different from my own. And that’s all i’ve been doing in almost every thread on PWI…
[/quote]
Awww, no worries. If I was ever to let myself be friends with an atheist, you’d be at the top of the list!
Oh stop, I’m kidding about the “If I was ever to let myself be friends with an atheist” part…
…who the heck would ever want to be friends with an atheist!
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I am not saying that atheist are not moral or that Christians are moral. I am saying the different philosophies have two different moral/ethical codes. Christians have Natural Law and most atheists have utilitarianism.
I have met atheists that are morally superior to some Christians. I have met Jews, Muslims, and Pagans that are probably morally superior to some Christians. What I am pointing out is that the default moral code of atheist is of the utilitarian kind, while the default (at least for Catholics) is Natural Law.[/quote]
fair enough I retract my ignorance statement