[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.[/quote]
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
atheists have the same odds of “picking the winner” I suppose but I find it kind of sad that people don’t at least believe there is something greater out there, shit believe in the force before you believe there is no greater entity[/quote]
That’s like having the possible answers (with one being true) A, B, C, D, and choosing E. [/quote]
Don’t follow you? Unless you mean not accepting the ones put before you but E is equally as plausible a solution and choosing that one then yes I agree and i"ll take E Alex because I’m not aware of anyone killing each other in the name of E being the right answer, not so much for A,B,C,D[/quote]
Well if we are talking about killing people in the name of…then atheists take the cake…still.[/quote]
OK lump atheists into that A,B,C,D category if you want. I’m talking about people that recognize “it”, know “it” exists, know that “it” doesn’t care the name you give it and certainly doesn’t want you killing people. Basically the message doesn’t require a church or an affiliation to get it right.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.[/quote]
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Yes, I ‘willingly’ submit…You answered your own question. As for most of us non-anarchists, we question the size, scope, role, whatever, of government, yet submit for the sake of civil order. I’m not sure where you’re going
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.[/quote]
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Yes, I ‘willingly’ submit…You answered your own question. As for most of us non-anarchists, we question the size, scope, role, whatever, of government, yet submit for the sake of civil order. I’m not sure where you’re going[/quote]
…you skirt the question Sloth. Why do you willingly submit yourself to your god/church/religion when you have problems with government and taxation? Both impose rules and regulations upon you…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.[/quote]
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Yes, I ‘willingly’ submit…You answered your own question. As for most of us non-anarchists, we question the size, scope, role, whatever, of government, yet submit for the sake of civil order. I’m not sure where you’re going[/quote]
…you skirt the question Sloth. Why do you willingly submit yourself to your god/church/religion when you have problems with government and taxation? Both impose rules and regulations upon you…
[/quote]
I answered your question. You simply failed to discern between types of submission. To be even clearer, my government requires my submission and the fruit of my labors. This is backed by force of law. Now, I am willing to submit to governance for the sake of order and prosperity. And, I am personally willing to pay taxes to fund said government. However there will always be the an involuntary component. An involuntary submission, if you will. Thus, we petition our government through representatives to, well, represent us in light of the involuntary component.
Today I could declare myself an atheist or a hindu, or withould tithes, without fear of fine or prison term. My association and tithes are a product of completely free association. My willingess to submit shouldn’t require defending. It is the mixed submission to government that requires constant vigilance, justification, and debate.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the church is defined by the people who govern it, and it’s value is defined by the people who grant it it’s power. Without people nothing has value. The Church does not exist as an entity without people. You subdue yourself to people. Why?[/quote]
The Church endures and will endure regardless of any specific person/people. Generations from now the Church will still stand. It goes on regardless. [/quote]
…that doesn’t answer the question. You willingly subdue yourself to people. Why?
[/quote]
All men subdue themselves to others or they will quickly find themselves subdued within a prison, mental institue, a grave, or within isolation. In a more trivial example, even the softball player subdues himself to his coach and teammates. You ‘subdue yourself to people’ when you get in the back of a line instead of cutting to the front. The question implies a social framework that is really only found among criminals, mad men, and hermits.[/quote]
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Because it is truth. And I willingly submit myself to that which is true.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
atheists have the same odds of “picking the winner” I suppose but I find it kind of sad that people don’t at least believe there is something greater out there, shit believe in the force before you believe there is no greater entity[/quote]
That’s like having the possible answers (with one being true) A, B, C, D, and choosing E. [/quote]
Don’t follow you? Unless you mean not accepting the ones put before you but E is equally as plausible a solution and choosing that one then yes I agree and i"ll take E Alex because I’m not aware of anyone killing each other in the name of E being the right answer, not so much for A,B,C,D[/quote]
Well if we are talking about killing people in the name of…then atheists take the cake…still.[/quote]
OK lump atheists into that A,B,C,D category if you want. I’m talking about people that recognize “it”, know “it” exists, know that “it” doesn’t care the name you give it and certainly doesn’t want you killing people. Basically the message doesn’t require a church or an affiliation to get it right.[/quote]
Okay, well Christianity doesn’t want you killing people. Atheism doesn’t care either way.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
atheists have the same odds of “picking the winner” I suppose but I find it kind of sad that people don’t at least believe there is something greater out there, shit believe in the force before you believe there is no greater entity[/quote]
That’s like having the possible answers (with one being true) A, B, C, D, and choosing E. [/quote]
Don’t follow you? Unless you mean not accepting the ones put before you but E is equally as plausible a solution and choosing that one then yes I agree and i"ll take E Alex because I’m not aware of anyone killing each other in the name of E being the right answer, not so much for A,B,C,D[/quote]
Well if we are talking about killing people in the name of…then atheists take the cake…still.[/quote]
OK lump atheists into that A,B,C,D category if you want. I’m talking about people that recognize “it”, know “it” exists, know that “it” doesn’t care the name you give it and certainly doesn’t want you killing people. Basically the message doesn’t require a church or an affiliation to get it right.[/quote]
Okay, well Christianity doesn’t want you killing people. Atheism doesn’t care either way.[/quote]
That’s a pretty broad sweeping and holier than thou statement
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
atheists have the same odds of “picking the winner” I suppose but I find it kind of sad that people don’t at least believe there is something greater out there, shit believe in the force before you believe there is no greater entity[/quote]
That’s like having the possible answers (with one being true) A, B, C, D, and choosing E. [/quote]
Don’t follow you? Unless you mean not accepting the ones put before you but E is equally as plausible a solution and choosing that one then yes I agree and i"ll take E Alex because I’m not aware of anyone killing each other in the name of E being the right answer, not so much for A,B,C,D[/quote]
Well if we are talking about killing people in the name of…then atheists take the cake…still.[/quote]
OK lump atheists into that A,B,C,D category if you want. I’m talking about people that recognize “it”, know “it” exists, know that “it” doesn’t care the name you give it and certainly doesn’t want you killing people. Basically the message doesn’t require a church or an affiliation to get it right.[/quote]
Okay, well Christianity doesn’t want you killing people. Atheism doesn’t care either way.[/quote]
That’s a pretty broad sweeping and holier than thou statement[/quote]
Yes it is, I am glad you can read. I am guessing you have a question.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …you skirt the question Sloth. Why do you willingly submit yourself to your god/church/religion when you have problems with government and taxation? Both impose rules and regulations upon you…
[/quote]God cannot sin, cannot lie, cannot be deceived, cannot err, cannot be defeated, is all holy, righteous powerful and eternally perfect. He is thus rightfully able to demand and infinitely worthy of my most humble, grateful and adoring worship which I count it all joy and privilege to render.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Because it is truth. And I willingly submit myself to that which is true.[/quote]
…thanks for answering the question Chris…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
That’s a pretty broad sweeping and holier than thou statement[/quote]
Yes it is, I am glad you can read. I am guessing you have a question.[/quote]
Nope, no question. You have pretty much divulged your ignorance, yes certainly I’m sure all atheists don’t care about people getting killed. brilliant
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Because it is truth. And I willingly submit myself to that which is true.[/quote]
…thanks for answering the question Chris… [/quote]
What? I actually answered YOUR question and you said I didn’t. He’s answering a different question and you say thanks?
Your question was about how I could willingy submit to my faith, but complain about government policies.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
That’s a pretty broad sweeping and holier than thou statement[/quote]
Yes it is, I am glad you can read. I am guessing you have a question.[/quote]
Nope, no question. You have pretty much divulged your ignorance, yes certainly I’m sure all atheists don’t care about people getting killed. brilliant
[/quote]
Oh, so then atheist are a part of a group under atheism? All of you guys tell us you’re not, that is why I said atheism as an ideology does not have a moral code to which it says killing people is good or bad, besides a utilitarian ethics.
Ayn Rand herself was a Utilitarian/Natural Law atheist. However, the majority of atheists are just Utilitarian. Which allows them to be neutral when someone is killed.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Nope, no question. You have pretty much divulged your ignorance, yes certainly I’m sure all atheists don’t care about people getting killed. brilliant
[/quote]
Um, he’s objectively correct. Atheism isn’t a system of ethics or morality. It’s only concerned with the existence (or more accurately, the non-existence) of god(s).
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…the keyword here is “willingly”. Most of you on this board are against big government, taxes and social programs, yet somehow many of you have no problem submitting to a god, church and religion. Why, do you think, is that?[/quote]
Because it is truth. And I willingly submit myself to that which is true.[/quote]
…thanks for answering the question Chris… [/quote]
What? I actually answered YOUR question and you said I didn’t. He’s answering a different question and you say thanks?
Your question was about how I could willingy submit to my faith, but complain about government policies.
[/quote]
…you never said for what reason you submit yourself to religion. That was my initial question; one you’ve not answered to my satisfaction. Or at least, an answer i was unable to distill from your replies…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Nope, no question. You have pretty much divulged your ignorance, yes certainly I’m sure all atheists don’t care about people getting killed. brilliant
[/quote]
Um, he’s objectively correct. Atheism isn’t a system of ethics or morality. It’s only concerned with the existence (or more accurately, the non-existence) of god(s).[/quote]
…this is true. It doesn’t mean, however, that an atheist is, by definition, without a system of morality. Altough many a believer has claimed this; it is a lie, plain and simple…