Growing Up in a Religious Family

Off Topic
141

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There really isn’t any good thing about being a Christian. At least not in this life.[/quote]

Which is just dumb. I’m not going to bust my ass following the Ten Commandments for a Heaven I don’t even know exists or that I’ll even get there.
[/quote]

Yeah, it seems dumb. But, I would rather have eternal happiness. And, that is where faith comes into play. They can reason that God exists, but there is a certain leap of faith that you have to take. [/quote]

Ah, but why should I do everything right when some hardened psychotic serial killer who ate his victims’ brains can confess his sins right before his lethal injection and be allowed into Heaven? Not even God or Jesus can be THAT merciful. Some people belong in Hell and confessing your sins and finding God and Jesus shouldn’t negate that. That is part I have a problem with.[/quote]

I can reassure you this, God is just. Take it as you will, but I’ll explain a little further. Just because a man confesses his sins does not mean he is forgiven, or that he will not go unpunished. There are three things to make a confession valid: examine conscience and not withhold, be contrite and repentant, and complete penance.

Each individual can be argued whether they’ll go to Heaven. However, a hardened psychotic serial killer likely didn’t examine his conscience, withheld, and wasn’t contrite or repentant.

It is not our place to say someone is in Hell. However, there is likely a lot of people in Hell.

142

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]

So Hitler did nothing wrong?[/quote]

To me, a person who believes in god, of course he was wrong. But if you truly do not believe in god, you ultimately acknowledge the fact that there is no premise of moral behavior, no logic behind morality.[/quote]

Okay, this is just wrong. Morality exists outside of God. You’re saying morality did NOT exist before monotheistic thought? I am currently exploring Wicca as a way of life and you’re telling me I have no morals or basis for morals because I don’t believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concept of God/Yahweh/Allah? As I said before, some things are just universally WRONG. Killing someone in cold blood is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Child molestation is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Lying is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Ethnic cleansing is wrong. I don’t need a book that was written second and third hand several generations after it’s happenings to tell me that. Some things you just KNOW, because you have a SOUL/CONSCIENCE. It’s the people without souls/consciences you have to worry about, not the people without God/Yahweh/Allah.[/quote]

Calm down woman! Thomas Aquinas explained this, he called it Natural Law. Natural Law is the morals that are ‘written on our hearts’ by God. And, if you look at every religious group, unless they are considered ‘dark,’ have the same morals. Because it is the natural thing to do.

Respect your parents.
Don’t murder people.
Don’t steal.
Don’t cheat.

You compare the morals of religions around the world and you’ll see a resemblance (not everything the same, but you’ll see similarities).

143

bah

All I need to know that murder is ‘wrong’ is a) I don’t want to be murdered b) I don’t my loved ones to be murdered and c) the other people who also share my feelings about a and b will not cooperate with me in a society where individuals must have cooperation to survive.

It’s natural because it is logical.

144

[quote]debraD wrote:
bah

All I need to know that murder is ‘wrong’ is a) I don’t want to be murdered b) I don’t my loved ones to be murdered and c) the other people who also share my feelings about a and b will not cooperate with me in a society where individuals must have cooperation to survive.

It’s natural because it is logical.[/quote]

Why is it logical? What if the murderer killed someone because he was starving, and the victim refused to give up his food?

The murder would then be considered logical in the murderers point of view, because he needed to survive. Such behavior is attributed to the Survival of the Fittest. This is undeniable.

145

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?

146

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.

Imagining a world without religion is impossible, since it is in our nature to be religious.

147

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born.

148

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born. [/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot a word…mass established schools.

149

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Ever heard of the dark ages?

150

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born. [/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot a word…mass established schools.[/quote]

Yeah you are right, without ancient greeks establishing schools, no one could have the option to establish schools for the masses.

151

There wasn’t really any type of “MASS ESTABLISHED” Schooles until Charlemagne.

152

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born. [/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot a word…mass established schools.[/quote]

Yeah you are right, without ancient greeks establishing schools, no one could have the option to establish schools for the masses.[/quote]

Yes, give credit where credit is due. Christendom taught the masses, including the poor. We mass built hospitals. We created the first ones.

153

[quote]therajraj wrote:
In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

[/quote]

If I could restart the world, over and over, and watch an eternity of alternative histories develop, I’d wager my last dollar that religion would always preceede and allow for settled societies and communities (thus, eventually, allowing for the leisure time for intellectual pursuits).

Family, specifically, is an interesting question. Sexual passions are extremely powerful in influencing our behavior and future. Mastering passions and desires are often difficult, and with sex it’s no different. It takes a pretty powerful common moral theme to order the sexual act in a way that is conducive to sustatining prosperity and civil society. A diety provides an irreplaceable absolute towards such.

Without it–even moreso, without actual devout practice–it’s not a question of morality, but of how much risk one is willing to assume. There is no right or wrong, merely opinion, which opinion has the most guns, and risk assesment. And some are willing to take more risks than others. That doesn’t make them wrong, just more driven to fullfill their wants and needs. No, I’m completely convinced that humanity would find religion before it would develop the notion of an intact family structure suitable to ordering and rearing children in a sustainable way. And to order relations towards prosperity and civil peace. More importantly, not only develop it, but to see it actually practiced.

But ‘for serious,’ I’m guilty of keeping this thread alive.

154

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born. [/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot a word…mass established schools.[/quote]

Yeah you are right, without ancient greeks establishing schools, no one could have the option to establish schools for the masses.[/quote]

Yes, give credit where credit is due. Christendom taught the masses, including the poor. We mass built hospitals. We created the first ones.[/quote]

Nah, hospitals outdate Christianity brah.

155

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
bah

All I need to know that murder is ‘wrong’ is a) I don’t want to be murdered b) I don’t my loved ones to be murdered and c) the other people who also share my feelings about a and b will not cooperate with me in a society where individuals must have cooperation to survive.

It’s natural because it is logical.[/quote]

Why is it logical? What if the murderer killed someone because he was starving, and the victim refused to give up his food?

The murder would then be considered logical in the murderers point of view, because he needed to survive. Such behavior is attributed to the Survival of the Fittest. This is undeniable.[/quote]

Do you think the murderer would want to be killed by someone who is starving? No. Having a reason for something doesn’t make it right. Even religious people draw morals outside of their holy texts. If you deny that then mixing fabrics is a sin:

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.

I believe in a God but I don’t think people can base their morality solely on scripture.

156

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]

Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]

I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.

According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]

Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.

Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?

There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.

Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.

Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…

Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.[/quote]

I agree with you that Christianity contributed to modern civilized society. But I have hard time believing that without Christianity nurturing certain thoughts, that society on it’s own wouldn’t be able to come to these logical conclusions without religion. In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

I would even argue some of the ideals of Christianity has held society from progressing… I mean the banning of teaching intelligent design in US schools… really?[/quote]

Yeah, you’re right. I mean without Catholics establishing schools, no one could have the option to ban something from being taught in schools.
[/quote]

From my understanding it was the ancient Greeks who first established schools well before Christ was born. [/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot a word…mass established schools.[/quote]

Yeah you are right, without ancient greeks establishing schools, no one could have the option to establish schools for the masses.[/quote]

Yes, give credit where credit is due. Christendom taught the masses, including the poor. We mass built hospitals. We created the first ones.[/quote]

Nah, hospitals outdate Christianity brah. [/quote]

Places of hospitality out date Christianity. Actual hospitals as we know it were started by Roman CC. Sorry.

157

[quote]chimera182 wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
bah

All I need to know that murder is ‘wrong’ is a) I don’t want to be murdered b) I don’t my loved ones to be murdered and c) the other people who also share my feelings about a and b will not cooperate with me in a society where individuals must have cooperation to survive.

It’s natural because it is logical.[/quote]

Why is it logical? What if the murderer killed someone because he was starving, and the victim refused to give up his food?

The murder would then be considered logical in the murderers point of view, because he needed to survive. Such behavior is attributed to the Survival of the Fittest. This is undeniable.[/quote]

Do you think the murderer would want to be killed by someone who is starving? No. Having a reason for something doesn’t make it right. Even religious people draw morals outside of their holy texts. If you deny that then mixing fabrics is a sin:

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.

I believe in a God but I don’t think people can base their morality solely on scripture.
[/quote]

Ah, but people do! To some people, definitely to the people of the past when religion was the be all/end all of life, the Bible is the ultimate authority on morals.

158

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
In another world where religion never existed do you really believe that society wouldn’t’ve realized that duty to one’s family is important for example? Or killing is wrong?

[/quote]

If I could restart the world, over and over, and watch an eternity of alternative histories develop, I’d wager my last dollar that religion would always preceede and allow for settled societies and communities (thus, eventually, allowing for the leisure time for intellectual pursuits).

Family, specifically, is an interesting question. Sexual passions are extremely powerful in influencing our behavior and future. Mastering passions and desires are often difficult, and with sex it’s no different. It takes a pretty powerful common moral theme to order the sexual act in a way that is conducive to sustatining prosperity and civil society. A diety provides an irreplaceable absolute towards such.

Without it–even moreso, without actual devout practice–it’s not a question of morality, but of how much risk one is willing to assume. There is no right or wrong, merely opinion, which opinion has the most guns, and risk assesment. And some are willing to take more risks than others. That doesn’t make them wrong, just more driven to fullfill their wants and needs. No, I’m completely convinced that humanity would find religion before it would develop the notion of an intact family structure suitable to ordering and rearing children in a sustainable way. And to order relations towards prosperity and civil peace. More importantly, not only develop it, but to see it actually practiced.

But ‘for serious,’ I’m guilty of keeping this thread alive.[/quote]

You’re talking about monotheistic religion, yes? Christianity or Islam or Jewish? The world was just fine with the Greek and Roman and Celtic and Teutonic gods/goddesses. Modern society would be different, yes, but you can’t tell me that the advent of Christianity is the sole reason for today’s modern world. People of polytheistic religions can be just as devout as people of monotheistic ones.

159

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]chimera182 wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:
bah

All I need to know that murder is ‘wrong’ is a) I don’t want to be murdered b) I don’t my loved ones to be murdered and c) the other people who also share my feelings about a and b will not cooperate with me in a society where individuals must have cooperation to survive.

It’s natural because it is logical.[/quote]

Why is it logical? What if the murderer killed someone because he was starving, and the victim refused to give up his food?

The murder would then be considered logical in the murderers point of view, because he needed to survive. Such behavior is attributed to the Survival of the Fittest. This is undeniable.[/quote]

Do you think the murderer would want to be killed by someone who is starving? No. Having a reason for something doesn’t make it right. Even religious people draw morals outside of their holy texts. If you deny that then mixing fabrics is a sin:

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.

I believe in a God but I don’t think people can base their morality solely on scripture.
[/quote]

Ah, but people do! To some people, definitely to the people of the past when religion was the be all/end all of life, the Bible is the ultimate authority on morals.[/quote]

True but, apart from maybe the most extreme people you have to make a distinction between the things you believe from the Bible.

160

[quote]Grneyes wrote:
You’re talking about monotheistic religion, yes?[/quote]

In general, mankind will have his religion. In regards to the west, no I don’t think you could’ve substituted any other religion.

No, I’m not claiming it’s the sole reason. And I’m not as concerned with contemplating the state of the world as I’m with the nation whose laws I live under.

I’m sure they are.