[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]
So Hitler did nothing wrong?
Hardcore atheists are just as bad as religious fanatics. I can’t stand hearing them bitch and moan. Anyone that is sitting around making fun of others views or not having enough respect to accept others for who they are and what they stand for is, simply put, a pussy.
I just enjoy chillen, respect everyones opinions even if I disagree, and I also pride myself in not being afraid to voice my opinions at appropriate times or to correct someones ignorance. But our beliefs will either matter or not hold any importance at all once we die, so until then…imma do me, you do you, if you’re a sexy female imma do you too.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:
Anarchistic Christian[/quote]
So you’re an Anabaptist?[/quote]
not really, in hindsight anarchistic Christian wasn’t really the best term to use to describe my beliefs.Aside from Jesus Christ acting as a sacrifice eliminating the need for fulfilling the prophecy established in Genesis and eliminating the need for future sacrifices , one of the major points of Christianity was to eliminate the middle man between mankind and God , and generally religious organizations don’t really want to relinquish the power that would come from that try to get in the way of that by establishing a theocratic class that taught in order for the common man to reach heaven they would have to pledge fealty too.
Or to summarize that Jesus established a means for a personal relationship with God, and the Pharisees,Priests,Ecclesiastic class got pissed.
Plus im not too thrilled about things like the Council of Nicaea, or the perversion of biblical teachings the early church used to convert the pagans.
Basically i believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for the salvation of mankind, so the need for a physical church and priest class is not necessary and in some cases detrimental to personal salvation.
I do believe many tangible Churchs do good things like missions help the poor,elderly, and infirm, But not necessary for personal salvation, and prone to corruption.
[quote]attydeb2005 wrote:
Delta is that you in that avi…cuz damn man…
*Edit – note to self, check age of poster before commenting :0[/quote]
[quote]PimpBot5000 wrote:
Reincarnation is heavily emphasized in Tibetan Buddhism, as well as a few other branches. The young Dalai Lama to be is tested by recognition of the former Dalai Lama’s possessions, and based on this it is concluded that he is the reincarnation.[/quote]
Yes, I realize this. My point was that reincarnation is not merely a metaphor for the conquering of desire and ‘‘rebirth’’ within a single human lifetime. It is, in many sects, regarded as the literal transference of a single ‘‘life-force’’ (for lack of a better word) from corporeal entity to corporeal entity. Have you read ''The Tibetan Book of the Dead? It’s been a while since I have but I clearly remember it as a manual of sorts on how to prepare for the death-between-rebirth process.
And yes, I realize that the different sects have different interpretations of the writings and teachings of the Buddha and utilize different methods in the attainment of enlightenment as well as have different central deities of worship. In Osaka, most of the temples are confined to a certain section of the city (old law of Hideyoshi, I believe), so I don’t have much experience with 4am cannon-firing monks.
I believe that you are creating a false dichotomy here. I do not really wish to argue the definition of the word ‘‘religion,’’ but I think that there’s more to it than ‘‘involves worshipping a higher power (God) and strict adherence to a set of guidelines created by that God.’’ Religion does involve a cosmology in the belief system, and there is a cosmology involved in Buddhism that deals with different planes of existence, so in that respect I would still classify it as a religion.
While I realize that the historical Buddha was not a god per se, you are aware that there is the belief that a Buddha is a cosmic being that transcends this plane of existence, right? And that the historical Buddha is a physical manifestation of this cosmic being?
[quote]All the Buddha statues and murals are not meant to be worshiped, they’re simply a reminder of the teachings of the man and what he attained. Having a buddha statue is no different than having a bust of Socrates in your study…
The deities of Buddhism ARE in fact symbolic and not intended to be real (again, a few branches do believe in literal ‘‘hungry ghosts’’ and ‘‘winds of craving’’, but they are not in the majority)…
All Buddhist ‘‘demons’’ represent earthly cravings, which a Buddhist has to overcome if he or she is to attain enlightenment. You’ll see in most Buddhist tapestries that Buddha is in the center and is resisting the temptation of the ‘‘demons’’ (cravings) at the periphery. They aren’t waiting to torment us in hell (or reward us in heaven), they are earthly temptations that we have to resist everyday.[/quote]
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on some of these points. While it is true that Buddhist deities are representations of the ‘‘passions’’ that must be overcome along the path to enlightenment, whether or not they are merely metaphors for contemplation or if they are in fact physical manifestations of those ‘‘passions’’ I think is a debatable point. Some of the sources I have read refer to Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, and so forth as cosmic beings that transcend the physical realm we exist in, and some suggest that they are personifications of human emotions. Perhaps it has to do with the particular sect and their interpretation of the canon.
But my point is that I think you are making Buddhism into something more materialistic than it is. I will admit, as an ex-Catholic, that a materialistic, philosophy-based belief system that did not rely on supernatural deities is what piqued my interest in Buddhism to begin with, but, after looking into it more closely, I am not as sure as I once was that Buddhism does not include that particular aspect.
Of course I do not know your experience with Buddhism in your region (Tokyo, I presume?), but I live fairly close to Koyasan and the main temple complex of Shingon Buddhism. It’s a nice place, I highly recommend it if you haven’t visited. I have several of their texts, in both English and Japanese, and I can assure you that they worship their founder, Kukai or Kobo-daishi, as a Bodhisattva, a man-turned-deity. He is not dead, he has merely entered ‘‘eternal meditation,’’ and he will awaken one day and lead the believers to enlightenment. His tomb is a pilgrimage site, and the monks ritually place fresh clothing and food outside the tomb entrance twice a day in preparation for this event. They have been doing this for 800 years roundabout.
My question to you: Are you asserting that followers of Jodo and Jodo-shinshu do not actually believe that worshipping the Amida Buddha will lead them to the Western Paradise after death? That somehow the Western Paradise is a metaphor for something in this lifetime?
I speak Japanese well enough, but not as well as I wish I did. However, I see your point. One of my sempai at my dojo is a monk at Shitennoji, and I have always wanted to get into an in-depth conversation with him about this. However, whenever I bring it up, he just kind of sighs and shakes his head at me. I do keep trying though.
For the record:
http://features.pewforum.org/...knowledge/?q=16
14 out of 15. Missed the question on the Great Awakening or whatever.
First of all, I’m betting this is a troll post. Regardless, I am a christian who grew up in a christian house hold and though I didn’t appreciate it at times (mostly when I was younger and thought church was really boring. I do appreciate it now and still am a christian.
If this is a “legit” post…christian or not you have some issues.
[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Jfbalabama wrote:
Anarchistic Christian[/quote]
So you’re an Anabaptist?[/quote]
not really, in hindsight anarchistic Christian wasn’t really the best term to use to describe my beliefs.Aside from Jesus Christ acting as a sacrifice eliminating the need for fulfilling the prophecy established in Genesis and eliminating the need for future sacrifices , one of the major points of Christianity was to eliminate the middle man between mankind and God , and generally religious organizations don’t really want to relinquish the power that would come from that try to get in the way of that by establishing a theocratic class that taught in order for the common man to reach heaven they would have to pledge fealty too.
Or to summarize that Jesus established a means for a personal relationship with God, and the Pharisees,Priests,Ecclesiastic class got pissed.
Plus im not too thrilled about things like the Council of Nicaea, or the perversion of biblical teachings the early church used to convert the pagans.
Basically i believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for the salvation of mankind, so the need for a physical church and priest class is not necessary and in some cases detrimental to personal salvation.
I do believe many tangible Churchs do good things like missions help the poor,elderly, and infirm, But not necessary for personal salvation, and prone to corruption.[/quote]
Well, I am Catholic. Nice to meet you.
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
My question to you: Are you asserting that followers of Jodo and Jodo-shinshu do not actually believe that worshipping the Amida Buddha will lead them to the Western Paradise after death? That somehow the Western Paradise is a metaphor for something in this lifetime?
[/quote]
I get my branches of Japanese Buddhism mixed up from time to time, but Jodo-shinshu is an offshoot of Pure Land buddhism, no? I know that, even amongst Pure Land branches, there is debate over whether the “pure land” is a literal place reached after death, or enlightenment reached within this lifetime after taking solace in the Amida Buddha. I do know that they do not worship Amida as a “God”, but do believe bodhisatvas physically reincarnate to help others attain enlightenment.
I’m glad to see that you have done a fair amount of research on the subject. The point I was trying to make is that there are many separate branches of Buddhism, and many of those could (in my opinion) be considered a philosophy and a way of life rather than a religion. Regardless of how you label it though, I feel Buddhism is a very fascinating and worthwhile practice/belief.
[quote]attydeb2005 wrote:
Delta is that you in that avi…cuz damn man…
*Edit – note to self, check age of poster before commenting :0[/quote]
Yep that’s me, but it’s an old pic.
.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]
So Hitler did nothing wrong?[/quote]
To me, a person who believes in god, of course he was wrong. But if you truly do not believe in god, you ultimately acknowledge the fact that there is no premise of moral behavior, no logic behind morality.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There really isn’t any good thing about being a Christian. At least not in this life.[/quote]
Which is just dumb. I’m not going to bust my ass following the Ten Commandments for a Heaven I don’t even know exists or that I’ll even get there.
[/quote]
Yeah, it seems dumb. But, I would rather have eternal happiness. And, that is where faith comes into play. They can reason that God exists, but there is a certain leap of faith that you have to take. [/quote]
Ah, but why should I do everything right when some hardened psychotic serial killer who ate his victims’ brains can confess his sins right before his lethal injection and be allowed into Heaven? Not even God or Jesus can be THAT merciful. Some people belong in Hell and confessing your sins and finding God and Jesus shouldn’t negate that. That is part I have a problem with.
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]
So Hitler did nothing wrong?[/quote]
To me, a person who believes in god, of course he was wrong. But if you truly do not believe in god, you ultimately acknowledge the fact that there is no premise of moral behavior, no logic behind morality.[/quote]
Okay, this is just wrong. Morality exists outside of God. You’re saying morality did NOT exist before monotheistic thought? I am currently exploring Wicca as a way of life and you’re telling me I have no morals or basis for morals because I don’t believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concept of God/Yahweh/Allah? As I said before, some things are just universally WRONG. Killing someone in cold blood is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Child molestation is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Lying is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Ethnic cleansing is wrong. I don’t need a book that was written second and third hand several generations after it’s happenings to tell me that. Some things you just KNOW, because you have a SOUL/CONSCIENCE. It’s the people without souls/consciences you have to worry about, not the people without God/Yahweh/Allah.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]
So Hitler did nothing wrong?[/quote]
To me, a person who believes in god, of course he was wrong. But if you truly do not believe in god, you ultimately acknowledge the fact that there is no premise of moral behavior, no logic behind morality.[/quote]
Okay, this is just wrong. Morality exists outside of God. You’re saying morality did NOT exist before monotheistic thought? I am currently exploring Wicca as a way of life and you’re telling me I have no morals or basis for morals because I don’t believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concept of God/Yahweh/Allah? As I said before, some things are just universally WRONG. Killing someone in cold blood is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Child molestation is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Lying is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Ethnic cleansing is wrong. I don’t need a book that was written second and third hand several generations after it’s happenings to tell me that. Some things you just KNOW, because you have a SOUL/CONSCIENCE. It’s the people without souls/consciences you have to worry about, not the people without God/Yahweh/Allah.[/quote]
Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]
Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]
Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]
I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.
According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There really isn’t any good thing about being a Christian. At least not in this life.[/quote]
Which is just dumb. I’m not going to bust my ass following the Ten Commandments for a Heaven I don’t even know exists or that I’ll even get there.
[/quote]
Yeah, it seems dumb. But, I would rather have eternal happiness. And, that is where faith comes into play. They can reason that God exists, but there is a certain leap of faith that you have to take. [/quote]
Ah, but why should I do everything right when some hardened psychotic serial killer who ate his victims’ brains can confess his sins right before his lethal injection and be allowed into Heaven? Not even God or Jesus can be THAT merciful. Some people belong in Hell and confessing your sins and finding God and Jesus shouldn’t negate that. That is part I have a problem with.[/quote]
There is also this ridiculous notion that a third party can forgive you for your sins? I didn’t commit the sin against Jesus it was against another person yet Jesus can forgive me? Because he died on a cross. I’m all for a guy dying for forgiveness but it makes no sense.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Exactly. Modern civilized thought is all we really need in deciding what is “wrong” and what is “right” in society. [/quote]
Then why the need for quotation marks around right and wrong? It’s suggests an uncomfortableness with the distinction between right and wrong.[/quote]
I put quotations because some things that are considered right and wrong in modern civilized thought differ from what is considered right and wrong in religion.
According to the bible, stoning an adulterer is considered “right” but according to modern civilized thought it is considered “wrong”[/quote]
Well, it was Christian society that gave ‘modern civilized society’ the ideal. It didn’t take anything close to an atheistic or agnostic majority to overturn the practice. For Christians, despite continued wrongs committed in it’s name, Christ long ago gave the thumbs down to the practice of stoning sinners. Unfortunately, humanity is often extremely slow at taking things to heart and putting them into practice. For the Christian, while Christ may have left a path to walk, it was still human beings who had to travel it. Look, vengeance, to the point of blood, even death, against unfaithful spouses has been and will always be with humanity. I’m sure nonreligious and even atheists have cast their own stones in a fit of rage over unfaithfullness. Of course, today the stones exit the barrel of a firearm.
Christians (oh, I’m sure there are niche sects, don’t get me wrong) do not believe that old testament prescriptions reflect law fullfilled (as it was ultimately planned). We tend to believe they often reflected and even made concession to the people, and already established practices of the time. Today, many would say an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, would be excessive. But, what if yester-year the most likely scenario would have been blood vengeance against an entire family or tribe for the loss of a finger of one’s own family or tribal member? What if the custom, in regards to unfaithful wives, led often led to not only the death of the wives, but the kinsmen who married them off?
There is a peculiar practice today of imagining an alternative and utopian trek through history. One guided by ‘modern thought.’ And there is an even more peculiar practice of forgetting the ‘civilizing’ that was nurtured in Christendom, often with devout men leading the way. Abolition, desegregation, DUTY to family and children, DUTY towards charity, etc. “Modern civilized society” is largely resting, even partying it up, on the surplus left by more devout forebearers, who already wrestled and tamed some of the biggest issues of history for us. “Modern civilized society” has it easy. Perhaps that’s why so many people can find the time to try to save cows from ending up on your dinner plate.
Even so, this MCS is doing rather well in spending off it’s social surplus. 50% out of wedlock rates for hispanics, 70% for blacks, now up to 20+ for whites. Then there’s the crime and poverty attributed with these and other broken homes. And, of course, there’s the resulting dependancy on government which follows. More prisons, and more welfare dollars and programs. And, of course, declining educational results.
Yeah, fathers, increasingly without a sense of familial duty, basically. Mothers who could’ve used alot more of that old-fashioned prudence and self mastery. And the predictably feral children who start building their rap sheets before graduating from high school. If they graduate. If, they weren’t just graduated to get such problem children out of the school’s hair…
Meh, looks like the troll post (op) got me. I’m out of here.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
Nothing a human does is wrong unless he believes in God.[/quote]
So Hitler did nothing wrong?[/quote]
To me, a person who believes in god, of course he was wrong. But if you truly do not believe in god, you ultimately acknowledge the fact that there is no premise of moral behavior, no logic behind morality.[/quote]
Okay, this is just wrong. Morality exists outside of God. You’re saying morality did NOT exist before monotheistic thought? I am currently exploring Wicca as a way of life and you’re telling me I have no morals or basis for morals because I don’t believe in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concept of God/Yahweh/Allah? As I said before, some things are just universally WRONG. Killing someone in cold blood is wrong. Adultery is wrong. Child molestation is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Lying is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Ethnic cleansing is wrong. [/quote]
Why?