[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I would say Gene Labelle is indeed one of the greats.
course that’s cause I love Judo.
and we are talking of Martial artists- sadly not of badasses.
Speaking of Judo has no one mentioned
Mashiko Kimura
probably one of the greatest ‘modern’ Judoka’s ever.
His gift to us- "My Judo’ chronicles his life and training.
He started in the 5th grade and by his 20’s was arguably the best Judo player in all of Japan.
Highly skilled and ruthless also a reader of Mushashi
and later studied karate a few types and Boxing.
Post war he became a pro Judo player- and a Pro wrestler out of necessity
which led to his Famous bout with Helio Gracie where He broke Helios arm via the lock now named Kimura.
He competed in what you could call some of the very early vale tudo in Brazil in the mid 50’s
He also brought Judo- the finest Judo with him when he taught all over the world.
Kimura is kind of a footnote to the Gracie Family.
the Gracie Vale Tudo rules - and the mystique of Gracies them selves was born.
Helio is a story unto himself - a smaller guy- 6th dan in Judo invents and bastardizes his own system
need to give him props.
just saying yo.[/quote]
Good additions.
Since you mentioned pro wrestling, I’d also like to add:
Frank Gotch
Ad Santel
Karl Gotch/Charles Istaz
Lou Thesz[/quote]
And don’t forget where some of the toughest athletes in history come from, amateur wrestling. Three of the greats: Dan Gable, Gene Mills and Wade Schalles. There are many more worth mentioned but I’ll stop here.
I do consider him as one of martial art’s greats, certainly not the greatest, but he had an amazing mind and was always willing to consider and adapt new things into his teachings, which can not be said for a lot of martial artists who get stubbornly stuck in their ways.
Where it goes overboard is the nuthugging fanboys who think you’ve just insulted their mother when you tell them that he can’t really take on 10 men at once, or that he is by some measure fallible.
boxing evidently had a huge influence on Lee’s teachings, and in one of his books where he analyzes various styles, he had largely positive things to say about boxing where he was critical of traditional Asian arts
[quote]punchedbear wrote:
All he really did was basically take old Taoist and Buddhist sayings and bring it to the masses. He never said much that wasnt said before but because he had a media outlet to get his sayings out there he got credit as some kind of philosopher.
[/quote]
Well, technically he did receive a BA in Philosophy from the University of Washington, so he actually was a philosopher (though admittedly not a revolutionary one by any means). He did however have a knack for thinking outside the box and getting his students to also think about things in an abstract way.
True. Yet, at the time, there were many, many martial arts practitioners out there (including boxers) who didn’t appreciate that concept. Nationalism and loyalty to a certain system was the norm at that time.
Absolutely. But Lee was also acutely aware of what looked good on screen and what didn’t. Real martial arts are not pretty, they don’t make the audience go “oooooohhhhhhhh” when they see them performed (at least not the general public). So, one has to throw in more flashy types of techniques.
But, you also have to keep in mind that at the time when Lee made his films the norm in martial arts movies was much, much less realistic than what Lee portrayed. We are talking about stuff like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or The Matrix types of ridiculous wire stunts, people performing superhuman feats of speed or strength, and all manner of other exaggerated reality stuff.
That account was straight from LeBell’s mouth, so I think it was fairly accurate.
I’ve also heard the the story about Seagal, but the most reliable source I can find is Gokor, not Gene himself. So, while it may be true, I’d want to hear it from LeBell first before I fully believe it.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Too much lee hating going on in this thread.
I do consider him as one of martial art’s greats, certainly not the greatest, but he had an amazing mind and was always willing to consider and adapt new things into his teachings, which can not be said for a lot of martial artists who get stubbornly stuck in their ways.
Where it goes overboard is the nuthugging fanboys who think you’ve just insulted their mother when you tell them that he can’t really take on 10 men at once, or that he is by some measure fallible.
boxing evidently had a huge influence on Lee’s teachings, and in one of his books where he analyzes various styles, he had largely positive things to say about boxing where he was critical of traditional Asian arts[/quote]
Joe Lewis has stated that he and Lee used to watch tons of boxing footage of guys like Ali (who Lee greatly respected/admired) when they were training together. Western boxing most definitely influenced him heavily.
OK, this is a sort of directed at ZEB, but any and all can answer.
When people refer to Seagal as a fraud. In what way?
My take on him is that he is no where near as good as some have hyped him up to be. He is not invincible. The talk fast and mumble shit about the CIA was most likely stemming from someone asking him to report anything goofy while he was in Japan. Being an informant makes one an asset, not an agent. His attitude certainly invites negative judgement, I grant that.
However, he does have skill in Aikido. He did/does put quite a bit more emphasis on being able to work against resistance, at least by Aikido standards. He is also a pretty damn good pistol shot.
Is the “Fraud” title more of a not as good as advertised allegation. Or is it actually saying he has no discernable skill to speak of? Because I believe the former, and not the latter.
[quote]punchedbear wrote:
All he really did was basically take old Taoist and Buddhist sayings and bring it to the masses. He never said much that wasnt said before but because he had a media outlet to get his sayings out there he got credit as some kind of philosopher.
[/quote]
Well, technically he did receive a BA in Philosophy from the University of Washington, so he actually was a philosopher (though admittedly not a revolutionary one by any means). He did however have a knack for thinking outside the box and getting his students to also think about things in an abstract way.
True. Yet, at the time, there were many, many martial arts practitioners out there (including boxers) who didn’t appreciate that concept. Nationalism and loyalty to a certain system was the norm at that time.
Absolutely. But Lee was also acutely aware of what looked good on screen and what didn’t. Real martial arts are not pretty, they don’t make the audience go “oooooohhhhhhhh” when they see them performed (at least not the general public). So, one has to throw in more flashy types of techniques.
But, you also have to keep in mind that at the time when Lee made his films the norm in martial arts movies was much, much less realistic than what Lee portrayed. We are talking about stuff like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or The Matrix types of ridiculous wire stunts, people performing superhuman feats of speed or strength, and all manner of other exaggerated reality stuff.
That account was straight from LeBell’s mouth, so I think it was fairly accurate.
I’ve also heard the the story about Seagal, but the most reliable source I can find is Gokor, not Gene himself. So, while it may be true, I’d want to hear it from LeBell first before I fully believe it.[/quote]
There’s a reason that LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal story. And perhaps the same reason he sanitized the Lee story (if true). That is, he’s a really nice guy and would rather make a friend than an enemy. he realizes that Lee still has many fans (why I have no idea), and he soft peddles it. Or, as I’ve said from the beginning, it never happened.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
OK, this is a sort of directed at ZEB, but any and all can answer.
When people refer to Seagal as a fraud. In what way?
My take on him is that he is no where near as good as some have hyped him up to be. He is not invincible. The talk fast and mumble shit about the CIA was most likely stemming from someone asking him to report anything goofy while he was in Japan. Being an informant makes one an asset, not an agent. His attitude certainly invites negative judgement, I grant that.
However, he does have skill in Aikido. He did/does put quite a bit more emphasis on being able to work against resistance, at least by Aikido standards. He is also a pretty damn good pistol shot.
Is the “Fraud” title more of a not as good as advertised allegation. Or is it actually saying he has no discernable skill to speak of? Because I believe the former, and not the latter.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Steven Seagal, not unlike Bruce Lee, was (his career is over right? We can only hope)a movie star. Who has he ever beaten with his Aikido either on the street or in the ring? Certainly no one of repute. Furthermore, Aikido is not a fighting art. When you practice Aikido you must have a willing uke (training partner) or the techniques fall flat. Catching punches in mid air…come now if you’re over the age of 13 then you realize that this is an art for show, like the movies. Furthermore, those who have even a scintilla of knowledge on the history of Aikido know that its founder Morihei Ueshiba founded Aikido based not on its effectiveness as a fighting art, but on its beauty of movement. And, not unlike Ballet it is beautiful to watch. There is certainly a place for things like this as long as people do not confuse this stuff with anything that would actuallfy work in a confrontation. I think it’s time that some of the kids on this site (not you) stop thinking that one art is as good as the other when it comes to street defense. That’s just not the case. You can actually work very hard and have the wrong system and get your head handed to you. I don’t care how good someone is at Aikido it won’t help much in a street confrontation.
As for Seagal, I’m sure he has picked up a lot of kicks and punches that do work after being involved in the martial arts all his life. But not nearly enough to even be considered to be legitimate. And if he acted in movies and didn’t try to pass himself off as the God of martial arts I wouldn’t be calling him a fraud. But of course he doesn’t do that does he? As I said he’s a fraud. One more thing, after a given period of years you can tell a lot about someone not just by their words but by the life that they’ve lived. And I can only think of one word to describe him based on my knowledge of his life, Scum bag!
There you have it my friend. Steven Seagal is a fraud and a scum bag.
I am certainly not nominating Seagal for humanitarian of the year. I do think that he has done quite a bit of work to attempt to make his Aikido more of a combative art as opposed to the path of harmony Uesheba proposed, especially towards the end of his long life. Now that may get viewed as an attempt a necromancy in traditional jujitsu and Daito-Ryu circles, but I respect it.
I think where I differ from your assesment is that I fully appreciate his ability in martial arts, aiki and shooting. I am not nominating him for greatest of all time, but he is certainly capable of hurting more than feelings. It is his personality I have questions about. You throw out “fraud and scum bag”. I see someone who put a lot of time and effort towards mastering his art. So, at least in that respect I consider him a legitimate martial artist.
Regards,
[quote]punchedbear wrote:
All he really did was basically take old Taoist and Buddhist sayings and bring it to the masses. He never said much that wasnt said before but because he had a media outlet to get his sayings out there he got credit as some kind of philosopher.
[/quote]
Well, technically he did receive a BA in Philosophy from the University of Washington, so he actually was a philosopher (though admittedly not a revolutionary one by any means). He did however have a knack for thinking outside the box and getting his students to also think about things in an abstract way.
True. Yet, at the time, there were many, many martial arts practitioners out there (including boxers) who didn’t appreciate that concept. Nationalism and loyalty to a certain system was the norm at that time.
Absolutely. But Lee was also acutely aware of what looked good on screen and what didn’t. Real martial arts are not pretty, they don’t make the audience go “oooooohhhhhhhh” when they see them performed (at least not the general public). So, one has to throw in more flashy types of techniques.
But, you also have to keep in mind that at the time when Lee made his films the norm in martial arts movies was much, much less realistic than what Lee portrayed. We are talking about stuff like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or The Matrix types of ridiculous wire stunts, people performing superhuman feats of speed or strength, and all manner of other exaggerated reality stuff.
That account was straight from LeBell’s mouth, so I think it was fairly accurate.
I’ve also heard the the story about Seagal, but the most reliable source I can find is Gokor, not Gene himself. So, while it may be true, I’d want to hear it from LeBell first before I fully believe it.[/quote]
There’s a reason that LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal story. And perhaps the same reason he sanitized the Lee story (if true). That is, he’s a really nice guy and would rather make a friend than an enemy. he realizes that Lee still has many fans (why I have no idea), and he soft peddles it. Or, as I’ve said from the beginning, it never happened.[/quote]
It’s certainly possible that LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal incident because he doesn’t want to come across as a jerk. But, as far as the Lee story, again that account is straight from Gene’s mouth, if that isn’t a reliable source, then I don’t know what is.
and without making this a wrestling/grappling thread
Dan Gable - left a huge legacy for Americans.
Probably the catalyst of a few golden years of US Olympic and international Dominance
and he passed his legacy to
Cael Sanderson
And Zeb you sly dog- sneaking in Gene Mills
someone I had the privilege of working for.
“I tell them that if they work hard they can control their own destiny.”
I hear his voice so clearly speaking those words and I get teared up even now.
there are many many more - greats
you could easily throw in Alexander Karelin
who had a far better record then either mills or Gable
yet it is unknown if he gave back as much as either.
[quote]punchedbear wrote:
All he really did was basically take old Taoist and Buddhist sayings and bring it to the masses. He never said much that wasnt said before but because he had a media outlet to get his sayings out there he got credit as some kind of philosopher.
[/quote]
Well, technically he did receive a BA in Philosophy from the University of Washington, so he actually was a philosopher (though admittedly not a revolutionary one by any means). He did however have a knack for thinking outside the box and getting his students to also think about things in an abstract way.
True. Yet, at the time, there were many, many martial arts practitioners out there (including boxers) who didn’t appreciate that concept. Nationalism and loyalty to a certain system was the norm at that time.
Absolutely. But Lee was also acutely aware of what looked good on screen and what didn’t. Real martial arts are not pretty, they don’t make the audience go “oooooohhhhhhhh” when they see them performed (at least not the general public). So, one has to throw in more flashy types of techniques.
But, you also have to keep in mind that at the time when Lee made his films the norm in martial arts movies was much, much less realistic than what Lee portrayed. We are talking about stuff like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Iron Monkey, or The Matrix types of ridiculous wire stunts, people performing superhuman feats of speed or strength, and all manner of other exaggerated reality stuff.
That account was straight from LeBell’s mouth, so I think it was fairly accurate.
I’ve also heard the the story about Seagal, but the most reliable source I can find is Gokor, not Gene himself. So, while it may be true, I’d want to hear it from LeBell first before I fully believe it.[/quote]
There’s a reason that LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal story. And perhaps the same reason he sanitized the Lee story (if true). That is, he’s a really nice guy and would rather make a friend than an enemy. he realizes that Lee still has many fans (why I have no idea), and he soft peddles it. Or, as I’ve said from the beginning, it never happened.[/quote]
It’s certainly possible that LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal incident because he doesn’t want to come across as a jerk. But, as far as the Lee story, again that account is straight from Gene’s mouth, if that isn’t a reliable source, then I don’t know what is. [/quote]
I never said that it wasn’t a reliable source. All I am saying is that since LeBell doesn’t talk about the Seagal incident, or any other incident where he kicked someone’s ass it could be possible that he gave people the softer side of the Lee incident. Or like I said, it could just be that that is exactly what happened!
And as long as I’m on the topic of Lee.
I think Lee is an overblown glamor boy. Yeah, he did do a lot for the arts with his movies, and for that he deserves credit. But whenever these conversations about who was the best begin and someone mentions Lee’s name I literally burst out in laughter.
Facts:
Lee never had a championship belt from any legitimate world wide fighting organization.
Lee never beat any of the best of the day. In fact, while the best of his day were busy honing their techniques Lee was busy going to acting classes. While the real fighting champions were in the ring fighting and defending their title Lee was busy trying to make his technique look good on a movie screen.
And as I look back on his death in 1973 I strongly recollect that no one, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE thought that we had lost a great fighting champion. He was then considered a movie star and was mourned as such. But through the years reputations become enhanced and people grow much larger than they really were, especially after an untimely death. It happened to Elvis, JFK and Marilyn Monroe. And Linda Lee did a great job in building the Bruce lee image which of course meant coins in her purse.
I know this won’t stop the kids on this site, or anywhere else, who want to idolize Lee. But the truth is he was a movie star first and foremost.
and without making this a wrestling/grappling thread
Dan Gable - left a huge legacy for Americans.
Probably the catalyst of a few golden years of US Olympic and international Dominance
and he passed his legacy to
Cael Sanderson
And Zeb you sly dog- sneaking in Gene Mills
someone I had the privilege of working for.
“I tell them that if they work hard they can control their own destiny.”
I hear his voice so clearly speaking those words and I get teared up even now.
there are many many more - greats
you could easily throw in Alexander Karelin
who had a far better record then either mills or Gable
yet it is unknown if he gave back as much as either.
now I need a tissue.
[/quote]
Sheesh, how could I not mention Alexander Karelin? I would love to see a match between he and Seagal. That would last all of what? :20?
Honestly folks if you’re going to be in a thread that talks about the greatest martial artists you should really leave movie stars out of it. Otherwise, I am going to include Sly Stallone. Hey, he’s as credible as Seagal. No one can tell me that Stallone didn’t learn a great deal about boxing doing those films. No seriously, stop with the Seagal stuff folks. Just as I calm down from laughing about Bruce Lee being the greatest (or one of) martial artist whoever lived, someone throws Seagal into the mix and I get another side splitter.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Regarding Segal - did anything ever surface from those “sex slave” claims?[/quote]
All you have to do is google his name and filth comes dripping from your screen.[/quote]
Couldn’t find anything save the sex slave thing which, it turns out, was thrown out of court.
For the record I doubt Karelin would need 20 seconds to deal with him. He could deal with capable wrestlers in that time.
EDIT: This is not a thread devoted to arguing over the greatest martial artist of all time. This is a joke thread that was mistakenly shoehorned into the combat forum. It has since turned into a rambling clusterfuck about all kinds of stuff. So movie stars are certainly relevant here. I don’t think anyone is trying to say that Lee or (god forbid) Segal deserve to be within breathing distance of that list.
Seagal is not a world renowned martial artist. He is an actor.
Bruce Lee did alot of good things for martial arts, and was probably highly skilled, however NOT the best, because he didnt really prove anything and NOT the father of MMA.
MMA has been around for ages. Most of the early Karateka and Taekwondoists were also Judo bb’s. Taekwondo was created in the 50’s, most of the pioneers had studied Judo in Japan, or Korea, as the Japanese had occupied Korea and only allowed Japanese sports/ martial arts.
My instructor was a judo man that participated in these early cross trainings, learning taekwondo before it was WTF olympic style (a fighting SPORT). Many of the other early Taekwondo practitioners had also studied Japanese karate heavily before molding it into taekwondo. General Choi was one such person.
The 30’s-60’s were probably one of the greatest era for battle proven, AND competition proven martial artists. ROK marines were heavily feared for hand to hand fighting abilities from the newly instituted taekwondo programs which they used in the jungles of Vietnam.
Masatsu Oyama was creating full contact Kyokushin at this time as well.
Oyama, Choi, Hee Ill Cho, Kano, Funakoshi, Kimura…all these guys founders and cross trained MONSTERS of hand to hand combat.
Then of course you have the more ring oriented badasses such as Hug, Rutten, etc, all of which are far more deserving of “greatest martial artists ever” than the aforementioned MOVIE stars.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Seagal is not a world renowned martial artist. He is an actor.
Bruce Lee did alot of good things for martial arts, and was probably highly skilled, however NOT the best, because he didnt really prove anything and NOT the father of MMA.
MMA has been around for ages. Most of the early Karateka and Taekwondoists were also Judo bb’s. Taekwondo was created in the 50’s, most of the pioneers had studied Judo in Japan, or Korea, as the Japanese had occupied Korea and only allowed Japanese sports/ martial arts.
My instructor was a judo man that participated in these early cross trainings, learning taekwondo before it was WTF olympic style (a fighting SPORT). Many of the other early Taekwondo practitioners had also studied Japanese karate heavily before molding it into taekwondo. General Choi was one such person.
The 30’s-60’s were probably one of the greatest era for battle proven, AND competition proven martial artists. ROK marines were heavily feared for hand to hand fighting abilities from the newly instituted taekwondo programs which they used in the jungles of Vietnam.
Masatsu Oyama was creating full contact Kyokushin at this time as well.
Oyama, Choi, Hee Ill Cho, Kano, Funakoshi, Kimura…all these guys founders and cross trained MONSTERS of hand to hand combat.
Then of course you have the more ring oriented badasses such as Hug, Rutten, etc, all of which are far more deserving of “greatest martial artists ever” than the aforementioned MOVIE stars.[/quote]
Excellent post.
I forgot Mas Oyama. And, while we’re at it, I would put Chojun Miyagi in there as well - founder and creator of Goju-ryu karate, one of the few styles of karate that I have a lot of respect for.
Oyama took a lot of the katas from Goju-ryu and used them as a base for Kyokushin.
[i]
Oyama aspired to serve the Imperial Army during the war. He wrote a letter to the highest ranking officers with the blood from his fingers to apply for the Kamikaze pilot. Because it was the elite course he was rejected the first few times because of his back ground however, later Oyama recalls, “After the general saw I wrote in my own blood he knew I was ready to serve. The next week I was supposed to leave as Kamikaze, never returning to my home country.” However, the on the day of his mission, his airplane had malfunctioned.
He later said in an interview for TV program," I had breakfast with my comrades ready to serve our country. In the evening when I returned for supper, the chairs were empty. There were no words to describe what I felt but I know I was given a chance to do something."[/i]
I am not sure if this impresses or disgusts me. I’m leaning more towards “disgusted.”
Although, if that doesn’t make him more “martial” and DEFINITELY more of a warrior than Bruce fucking Lee, I don’t know what would…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Wow. Just read this about Oyama.
[i]
Oyama aspired to serve the Imperial Army during the war. He wrote a letter to the highest ranking officers with the blood from his fingers to apply for the Kamikaze pilot. Because it was the elite course he was rejected the first few times because of his back ground however, later Oyama recalls, “After the general saw I wrote in my own blood he knew I was ready to serve. The next week I was supposed to leave as Kamikaze, never returning to my home country.” However, the on the day of his mission, his airplane had malfunctioned.
He later said in an interview for TV program," I had breakfast with my comrades ready to serve our country. In the evening when I returned for supper, the chairs were empty. There were no words to describe what I felt but I know I was given a chance to do something."[/i]
I am not sure if this impresses or disgusts me. I’m leaning more towards “disgusted.”
Although, if that doesn’t make him more “martial” and DEFINITELY more of a warrior than Bruce fucking Lee, I don’t know what would…[/quote]
Don’t forget he was Korean born, named Choi Young-Eui. So, he was pledging fealty to an occupier of his native land. Sort of like a frenchman fighting FOR the Nazis, or your ancestors trying to be Black and Tans.
