Just to get back to the original post for a second…
Don’t forget to catch Comrade Sgrena on “60 minutes, Wendsday” so that we can discuss it…
Mufasa
Move to Sweden.
[quote]graphicsMan wrote:
I’m pretty happy about being American… we have 24 hour grocery stores. My gym is open from 6am to 1am. Food is cheap and plentiful. And to be damned sure, there are some beautiful places in the US. But everytime I turn on the TV and see that monkey (Bush), and listen to his stupid ass, it makes me somewhat ashamed that we could have such an idiot leading our country. Moreover, that we can be lied to, both by the government and the (government controlled) media about our actions in the world, just really chaps my hide. And for that short time when Bush’s stupid words enter my ears, I think that living in a more socialist country wouldn’t be all that bad.
Whew.[/quote]
I wonder how many other countries you have lived in. I’m going to guess zero.
Count your blessings.
[quote]gamarz wrote:
I support a midpoint, like Sweden for example.
Move to Sweden.
[/quote]
Then run into the blatantly racist immigration laws that rule in Europe. Bet he doesn’t think about those often, eh?
You could probably live there, but forget about becoming a citizen unless you could claim asylum from the ineffectiveness of Spanish government. But the list is long and the Swedes only allow about 2 000 refugees a year nowadays.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
100,000 iraquis would disagree about the elections… if they were still alive. And elections aren’t free if you’re still occupied by a foreign army and have a puppet government set up, forget the fact that the nation is in total chaos and the dominant shi?te party will probably still control Irak 10 years from now.
I never ever supported Red Russia and China, I did the exact opposite. I’ve already said twice that just because the dictatorship set up came from a party with communist in its name does not make the nation communist. Imperialism requires colonialism and land-whoring to subsist in the long run, whereas communism does not. You really need to see beyond the ‘spread the freedom’ fascade that has been used for so long to veil blatant greed and corruption. I suppose you were freeing Vietnam as well? Or Panama? Or Sudan? Same thing goes for Stalin and Mao’s crimes. The whole proletariat thing was just to convince people that they were the good guys, Stalin pissed all over Marx and Engels’works when he murdered Lenin and exhiled Trotsky. [/quote]
It’s not an “occupation” if the troops that are there are wanted by the current government.
It’s not a “puppet government” since they had free elections. Remember the ink stained finger? Yea, sure you do, it was only a short while ago…
In almost every democracy blood must be shed. Freedom is costly, but always worth it.
Try again!
[quote]vroom wrote:
Just remember that all systems have their problems – as much as we like to trumpet the current system, it is very far from perfect as well.
Granted, I certainly like it a lot better than I think I would communism, whether in truth or in name. A dictatorship might be nice, but then, only if I’m the dictator.
A little more seriously, there are still problems with greed, power and government secrecy.[/quote]
vroom:
Just think if you lived in a real democracy instead of that peace of crap excuse Canada calls a democracy…
Why don’t we let nopal_juventus and Al Shades go at it??? Could be fun…
MicroSlash - “Boinking T-vixens from every part of the political spectrum since Appetite for Destruction went platunum…”
"I’ll give you some clear imperialist examples of the last 35 years (these are all military actions taken by the U.S. in said countries with flimsy excuses as backing. If you’re still unsatisfied, I’ll provide websites with in-deph analysis and my own knowledge on some of the events): Vietnam, School of the Americas, Irak, Cambodia, Chile, Angola, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Philippines, Colombia, Afghanistan.
Want to compare the results of American imperialism and what your great- great- great-grandfathers did? I’ll give you a hint: the Spanish in the New World come in at almost a tie with smallpox for the most killed! Your country’s “accomplishments” in the New World led to the death of 45 times as many deaths as all of the wars and crimes that Americans have ever even been accused of.
Spaniards are actually the only people in the world that make us look benevolent in regard to our treatment of the Native Americans. I mean, the destruction of the North American Indians is the darkest period in American (and Canadian) history. But we don’t even come close to the excesses of your own ancestors. A path of butchery and devastation that wedges the Spanish right between smallpox and the several centuries of Mongol conquest on the all-time killer list.
This is more irritating the more I think about it: a Spaniard lecturing the US on imperialism? Do you have any idea from a historical perspective how idiotic that is? Spain probably has the least mixed history of horror of any nation on Earth (sorry Portugal). Really, think about it: who else has less achievements in the realm of civilization and more in the way of imperialist murder than you? Certainly not any in the West. And you might make some arguments for some Middle Eastern countries on thte one side, but they can’t hold a candle to 80-140 million Native Americans underground, either, so the crown is still Spanish.
You idiots raped and murdered your way across most of the globe for CENTURIES and all you have to show for it is your ruin of a country? What did you do with all the gold and slave labor? Having obviously squandered that (all that horror and not even lasting material gain?), why would we care what you think about the US?
Whatever you do don’t get a job and try to bring Spain into the 18th century. You’re better off protesting the School of the Americas.
A Spanish (see above) Communist (see previous post) who loathes the USA (s leader in the fight against international smallpox). That puts you at a 0% sanity level when it comes to human abomination. Let’s see if we can make this 0 for 4… What do you think of Genghis Khan in comparison to George Washington? "
Ok, I didn’t really read the rest of the posts because this one got me so pissed off.
First of all, Spain is not the only spanish-speaking country in the world. I am Mexican (born in San Diego though, so I’m also a U.S. citizen). That alone throws your entire argument out the door.
Secondly, it’s somewhat idiotic to hold someone responsible for something people 500 years ago did. That’s the same kind of argument that justifies Mexicans being barbaric because of the Mexicas (Aztecs) or Germans being racist because of Hitler.
Thirdly, I would think it’s condescending for you to lecture anyone about the killing of natives. The spaniards (while being incredibly more barbaric and bloodthirsty than the Aztecs, who at least upheld their social rules), like Hernan Cortes, killed less than 50,000 Aztecs and tlaxtalceques in their conquest of Tenochtiltlan. Smallpox and other diseases killed the other 2,000,000 (this is known as the demographic catastrophe). About 30% of Mexico is pureblood indian at the moment, whereas Britain and the U.S. managed to kill nearly all of the Native Americans.
By their standards, the Spanish were far kinder to the Natives than the british.
Now do I condone Cortes’ actions?
Hell no. I grew up despising Cortes and 16th century Spain, but I’m not dumb enough to hold Zapatero accountable.
Finally, your entire argument is about discrediting me personally for supposedly being Spanish, instead of adressing how being communist is wrong (another mistake on your part is calling me a communist, when I clearly said I wasn’t).
Cream why don’t you read the post properly,dummy, the definition of Imperialism was given by Rainjack not me. If we take the dictionary definition lets say from dictonary.com, the definition of imperialism is:
“imperialism: a policy of extending your rule over foreign countries 2: a political orientation that advocates imperial interests 3: any instance of aggressive extension of authority”.
Where is the bit about giving it back ? by that definition the US is imperialist. Would I define it like that personally ? no not really because the world politics has moved on in the last 50 years and the issue are more complex. You would have to use the political science definition of ‘neo-imperialism’.
Besides the US is still in Iraq with no real exit strategy or coherent plans to “nation build”, they could cobble one together like the Brits did in the 1900’s ( look up Gertrude Bell ) but that has only been effective by autocratic means. So if the US are about to leave then why are they building the biggest air base in the history of the US - A&R for US forces in the Middle East ?.
Bush and Blair both have given speeches were they stated that they envisaged being in that region at least a decade. Even so they could exit but leave a government in charge which is controlled by proxy - which falls into one of the tenets of neo-imperialism.
"It’s like saying I support the rise of a system of government that would commit 4-7 times the murder of the holocaust. "
Read what I type first. The point that I was trying to make was that the death toll caused by ‘communist nations’ is similar (probably less) to that caused by capitalist/imperialist nations. I never, ever supported Stalin or Mao’s purge. I said TWICE that I was against it. The point I’ve been trying to make is that true communism (while utopian, but then again, isn’t capitalism utopean as well?) is not evil. The main reason both Marx and Smith’s ideas fail in real life is the failure to truly take into account human nature. They both believe that man is inherently good. This is why communism (if you can call the massacres of the 20th century that) has failed.
"Your above statement about how the countries didn’t “follow the rules” explains why Marx’s ideal government was called “utopia”, a paradise that could never exist. Communism is simply a method of the radical pandering to the “proletariat” in order to overthrow the current power structure by duping the proletariat into believing the new power structure will be “Equal” and “fair”. Marx’s ideas were benevolent in theory, but the practical applications are always brutal. Once the radical has taken it’s position of power it continues to acquire power and wealth because it has the means, the “Proletariat” cannot because it has no means to acquire material goods. Comumunism is by it’s own nature parasitic. "
It’s parasitic in practice. I never said communism wasn’t utopian, I said the opposite. You keep putting words in my mouth. Why do you think I’m not a communist (or a capitalist)? However, if you’re going to say communism is evil because it’s utopian and in practice it leads to radicals setting up a totalitarian regime to ensure the system works, then be fair and say that capitalism is evil because it’s utopian and in practice the ‘free market’ runs rampant with monopolies and the nation keeps on building until it starts draining off of others to ensure its continued progress, and ends up becoming the only superpower opressing others to better its own economic status.(I hate run-on sentences).
“Then move to Sweden.”
Do you have any idea how hard it is to become a citizen? I personally think though that it’s better to become isolationist and block people out than to exploit them for all they got.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
The point I’ve been trying to make is that true communism (while utopian, but then again, isn’t capitalism utopean as well?) is not evil. The main reason both Marx and Smith’s ideas fail in real life is the failure to truly take into account human nature. [/quote]
No one on this thread has even approached equating capitalism with Utopia.
I think folks that work for a living, and folks that try and better themselves because they have the freedom to do so find their utopia in the chase of their goals. That’s something that communism stands in stark opposition to.
Spare me the “Russia wasn’t what Marx had in mind” B.S. China and the USSR are the two most successful models of Marx’s rantings.
I can’t even begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. They believe that GOVERNMENT is inherently good. There is a difference. And you are wrong.
If Marx truly believed that religion was the opium of the people, I wonder what that guy would’ve thought about TELEVISION??? I’m jus’ sayin’…
MicroSlash - “A strong believer in the wisdom of Lennon (John, that is) since 1972…”
OK just saw her. Here’s my two cents:
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She was a victim, wrong place wrong time.
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The Italian agent. Hardcore, did his duty. Knew the life he was in, and the risks, Protected the person he was sent to get. It sucks he got killed. He was a warrior. RIP, he was a man among real men.
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The troops didn’t try and kill her. They took action to protect themselves. If they wanted her dead they would have raked the car with an MG. Looks like the Humvies in the story were mounting 50’s. The car wasn’t strafed, looks like small arms fire from a SAW or rifle.
That’s my two cents. The 69th is the storied “Fighting 69th” from NY. Third Division led the assault on Baghdad. They know what they are doing.
Any way I wasn’t there and don’t know for sure but that’s my two cents as an Army vet for what it’s worth.
I’m Mountain Standard Time…
(Won’t be on for about 20 minutes…)
Mufasa
“No one on this thread has even approached equating capitalism with Utopia.”
Except me, the only non-capitalist here.
“I think folks that work for a living, and folks that try and better themselves because they have the freedom to do so find their utopia in the chase of their goals. That’s something that communism stands in stark opposition to.”
This is just plain naive. So you’re saying that all the poor people in capitalist nations around the world didn’t try hard enough? Or at least as hard as the succesful people? I’ll keep using Mexico as an example. 60% of mexicans live in relative poverty, and 40% in extreme poverty. All of them didn’t “work for a living” to “try and better themselves”?
This is why capitalism is utopean. In theory, those who try hardest will reach the top, but then how is it that in the beacon of capitalism there are abominations such as Paris Hilton? Why is it that this: http://www.thecorporatelibrary.com/Governance-Research/spotlight-topics/spotlight/scandals/scandal-quicksheet.html
happens? The amount of corruption that happens as a result of a ‘free market’, the oppresion of the common worker by giant industries/corporations is one of the main reasons Marx wrote is manifesto.
“Spare me the “Russia wasn’t what Marx had in mind” B.S. China and the USSR are the two most successful models of Marx’s rantings.”
Interesting. You’re the only one so far who believes so. Everyone else actually said that it didn’t work out at all like Marx’s plan because of the fact that it’s utopean.
"They both believe that man is inherently good.
I can’t even begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. They believe that GOVERNMENT is inherently good. There is a difference. And you are wrong. "
The government is made up of men, even though Marx treated it as an entity. In the end though, he failed to take human nature into account, since he believed that the government LEADERS (read: men) wouldn’t be corrupted by their power or fall into the trap of eliminating the opposition to ensure the efficiency of the communist system.
hedo said it all…
As someone said earlier, there were (understandably) a LOT of emotions soon after the event…at which point, accusations of conspiracy and lying were flying everywhere…
This interview (which had the value of time and distance) was a little less volatile…
I think that it will be difficult at this point to know exatly what happened. As the ex-Marine officer said…these decisions and actions at checkpoints often happen in the dark, and in a matter of seconds…
Mufasa
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
It’s parasitic in practice. I never said communism wasn’t utopian, I said the opposite. You keep putting words in my mouth. Why do you think I’m not a communist (or a capitalist)? However, if you’re going to say communism is evil because it’s utopian and in practice it leads to radicals setting up a totalitarian regime to ensure the system works, then be fair and say that capitalism is evil because it’s utopian and in practice the ‘free market’ runs rampant with monopolies and the nation keeps on building until it starts draining off of others to ensure its continued progress, and ends up becoming the only superpower opressing others to better its own economic status.(I hate run-on sentences).[/quote]
I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m replying to your origional statements with new ideas. Just because I’m bring up new data doesn’t mean i’m crediting you for the ideas.
Communism is parasitic in theory and practice. The only difference between Communism and socialism is were the guns are. Communism is socialism enacted from the barel of a gun.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
I am Mexican (born in San Diego though, so I’m also a U.S. citizen).[/quote]
Hrrrm… You were born in SD, and a US Citizen, but your Mexican. SOrry dude, you’re an AMERICAN! Not a Latino-American, not a Mexican-American, your a Bloody American.
[quote]nopal_juventus wrote:
I personally think though that it’s better to become isolationist and block people out than to exploit them for all they got.[/quote]
Guess a policy like this would have made it hard for you to be a US citizen.
(Sorry for any spelling errors. I’m an Engineer, and not expected to spell.)
La’
Redsol1
[quote]Cream wrote:
I wonder how many other countries you have lived in. I’m going to guess zero.
Count your blessings.[/quote]
I’ve lived in a couple other countries. In fact, I’m living in Germany at the moment. And while some things here really suck (like the gyms for example), it seems like there’s fewer depressed people here, the lifestyle is more relaxed, etc…
And note that I didn’t say that I don’t like the US. I love living there. What I don’t like is Bush’s regime. And as an American, it’s my right to think that my president is an idiot, and that his “people” are right wing assholes.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
nopal_juventus wrote:
Actually some of the principels of the Constitution (which isn’t sacred by the way, ever heard of the amendments?) are similar to Marx’s original principals.
Yeah - we copied Marx’s ideas 30 years before he was born.
I like capitalism, unashamedly. Our society in the U.S. is too socialistic as it is, now.
The U.S. imperialistic? Not in the last 90 years, or so. [/quote]
Man, has U.S. propaganda done a number on you! The U.S. hasn’t been imperialsit for the last 90 years? sheez…